American Airlines plane crash

[76-1]

It is true that the Biden and Obama FAA prioritized DEI over safety. Whether DEI is directly responsible for this crash, we can’t know yet.

I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River crash itself but the extreme efforts going all the way back to Obama to bring DEI into the mix when it came to hiring ATC's certainly appears to have had a direct effect on the shortage of Controllers and in some cases, their overall competence... If you lower the standards you get an unsurprising result...

There's an Aviation Lawyer who has been on Fox and Newsmax recently who has made some eye opening and extremely concerning (if true) statements about DEI and the hiring, training and retention of ATCs... His name is Micheal Pearson (he's also a former ATC)..,

Here's the clip from Newsmax (the FOX one was clearer but I can't find it...):



Now I disagree with him about the helicopter pilot in this case not having "any" responsibility for the crash but what he has to say about the long term effects of DEI and the ATC's going back to Obama is both interesting and concerning...

 

[Ohio Guy]

😬

View embedded media

Hmm - so because this woman attended some pride rallies and stood behind a lectern with the presidential seal are you implying that she shouldn’t have been in her role and might have been directly or indirectly responsible for last week’s crash?

Do you think last week’s tragedy would have been avoided if there were no people you consider DEI hires on board either air craft?

Sometimes people from under represented populations actually are hired on merit. I don’t know what happened on that helicopter or plane, but it’s bonkers that any serious person would suggest that none of this would have happened if only we didn’t have all these DEI hires.

Here’s a link that you might find helpful.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River crash itself but the extreme efforts going all the way back to Obama to bring DEI into the mix when it came to hiring ATC's certainly appears to have had a direct effect on the shortage of Controllers and in some cases, their overall competence... If you lower the standards you get an unsurprising result...

There's an Aviation Lawyer who has been on Fox and Newsmax recently who has made some eye opening and extremely concerning (if true) statements about DEI and the hiring, training and retention of ATCs... His name is Micheal Pearson (he's also a former ATC)..,

Here's the clip from Newsmax (the FOX one was clearer but I can't find it...):

View embedded media

Now I disagree with him about the helicopter pilot in this case not having "any" responsibility for the crash but what he has to say about the long term effects of DEI and the ATC's going back to Obama is both interesting and concerning...

I’ll wait until the final investigation comes out, but right now there is nothing about last week’s crash that would suggest DEI initiatives caused it. I honestly don’t know how you’d even begin to prove that.

I find it pretty despicable that this tragedy is being used as an example of perceived failings of DEI efforts. Supposing that all of this could have been avoided had only people perceived as non-DEI hires been involved is at best an absolute guess.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Who wants to tell him?

Really!

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

I’ll wait until the final investigation comes out, but right now there is nothing about last week’s crash that would suggest DEI initiatives caused it. I honestly don’t know how you’d even begin to prove that.

I find it pretty despicable that this tragedy is being used as an example of perceived failings of DEI efforts. Supposing that all of this could have been avoided had only people perceived as non-DEI hires been involved is at best an absolute guess.

As a general rule. Women should not operate heavy machinery.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

As a general rule. Women should not operate heavy machinery.

The untold story on the "Kill Dozer" was that a women duped him into doing it.
That is how effing evil they are! and unwilling to do "mans work". It's about time we all wake the hell up !

 

[76-1]

I’ll wait until the final investigation comes out, but right now there is nothing about last week’s crash that would suggest DEI initiatives caused it. I honestly don’t know how you’d even begin to prove that.

I find it pretty despicable that this tragedy is being used as an example of perceived failings of DEI efforts. Supposing that all of this could have been avoided had only people perceived as non-DEI hires been involved is at best an absolute guess.

Guess you missed or ignored the first half of my opening sentence: "I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River Crash"...
That said..., I also don't think you can dismiss, out of hand, Anything that may have had an effect, big or small, on any of the personnel involved in any aspect of this disaster....

Accidents like this are often the result of a myriad of things that have an influence in setting up the circumstances for the accident to take place... Little mistakes add up in the Negative in life or death situations..., especially when it comes to aviation.

Things that may have had an affect on the accident such as: Control Tower staffing, ATC overall training, pilot competence (in relation to the others in her unit), pilot training, Unit Command competence, Unit Command attention to detail, (such as: why allow a training mission to be run short one crewman [who very well might have seen the correct aircraft from their position in the fuselage] in a high traffic area....?). Was the pilots training degraded or impaired by the amount of time spent as window dressing at the White House versus actual flight time...??

All those questions (and more left unsaid) are valid ones in regard to their potentially having some bearing, large or small on the catastrophic result...

The pilot convincingly Failed her training flight by the way..., and so did the ATC (FAIL) in their lack of situational awareness, and incomplete communications with the helicopter pilot...

Why the ATC didn't just tell the chopper to Stop and Hold your position when it appeared there might be a flight traffic conflict is baffling (those choppers can go into a flare, stop and hover)...

I think the answers to all those those questions and more might very well not be the ones you'll find palatable...

 

[Ohio Guy]

Guess you missed or ignored the first half of my opening sentence: "I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River Crash"...
That said..., I also don't think you can dismiss, out of hand, Anything that may have had an effect, big or small, on any of the personnel involved in any aspect of this disaster....

Accidents like this are often the result of a myriad of things that have an influence in setting up the circumstances for the accident to take place... Little mistakes add up in the Negative in life or death situations..., especially when it comes to aviation.

Things that may have had an affect on the accident such as: Control Tower staffing, ATC overall training, pilot competence (in relation to the others in her unit), pilot training, Unit Command competence, Unit Command attention to detail, (such as: why allow a training mission to be run short one crewman [who very well might have seen the correct aircraft from their position in the fuselage] in a high traffic area....?). Was the pilots training degraded or impaired by the amount of time spent as window dressing at the White House versus actual flight time...??

All those questions (and more left unsaid) are valid ones in regard to their potentially having some bearing, large or small on the catastrophic result...

The pilot convincingly Failed her training flight by the way..., and so did the ATC (FAIL) in their lack of situational awareness, and incomplete communications with the helicopter pilot...

Why the ATC didn't just tell the chopper to Stop and Hold your position when it appeared there might be a flight traffic conflict is baffling (those choppers can go into a flare, stop and hover)...

I think the answers to all those those questions and more might very well not be the ones you'll find palatable...

All questions are valid . That’s the point of an investigation. And why do you think the answers won’t be palatable?

 

[76-1]

All questions are valid . That’s the point of an investigation. And why do you think the answers won’t be palatable?

Thought that was obvious... They may find that DEI did have an affect on the outcome...

 

[Ohio Guy]

Thought that was obvious... They may find that DEI did have an affect on the outcome...

That was my question. How do you prove there were mistakes made in that crash as a direct result of DEI initiatives? Conversely, are you suggesting that a non- DEI hire wouldn’t have had the wherewithal to avoid this accident?

I don’t think you can prove that.

And by that logic, if three co-pilots made up of a black woman, trans person and Native American fly a series of perfect Tomahawk missions and rate higher than every other pilot, does that mean DEI initiatives work?

Do you see how stupid this is? Trying to squint and tilt your head to blame last week’s tragedy on DEI initiatives is dumb.

 

[76-1]

That was my question. How do you prove there were mistakes made in that crash as a direct result of DEI initiatives? Conversely, are you suggesting that a non- DEI hire wouldn’t have had the wherewithal to avoid this accident?

I don’t think you can prove that.

And by that logic, if three co-pilots made up of a black woman, trans person and Native American fly a series of perfect Tomahawk missions and rate higher than every other pilot, does that mean DEI initiatives work?

Do you see how stupid this is? Trying to squint and tilt your head to blame last week’s tragedy on DEI initiatives is dumb.

Go back a look at the questions I just listed... If DEI was involved in any of the answers than DEI will have been shown to have had an affect on the outcome...

Inferring that I'm stupid or dumb for even considering it simply shows that you've gone in full defensive mode and will refuse to acknowledge that such a link exists even if one is found... (and that type of approach is why I rarely bother to interact with you on here).

There already exists a DEI link between ATC shortages and ATC training deficiencies... There's a possible (not probable but possible) link to it in the pilots assignment and her overall proficiency... There may links to it in other areas... To ignore that possibility because it doesn't fit your politics will never allow you to see the truth of the answers...

 

[Baller23Boogie]

What my wife asked yesterday, and I've been thinking about it lately, why are all DEI hires always portrayed as black or women and white males are never questioned on why they were hired?

Why are people only questioning some and one portion gets a free pass? I honestly can't come up with a good answer.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What my wife asked yesterday, and I've been thinking about it lately, why are all DEI hires always portrayed as black or women and white males are never questioned on why they were hired?

Why are people only questioning some and one portion gets a free pass? I honestly can't come up with a good answer.

How do people get into West Point? Individual congressmen appoint them. They have to meet minimum requirements, but who is to say a candidate from my district gets appointed who barely meets while a candidate whose parents don't donate big money well exceeds minimum doesn't. Isn't that just like DEI? How many of us complain about that? Has anyone brought it up on this board, ever? Congress had legislation to remove Congress from this in the 70s, since 1983 it has not had a single bill to eliminate this perk of wealthy campaign contributions.

I know I bring up college legacy admissions. Harvard admitting someone whose family gave a million is not meritocracy. How much pressure do our DEI warriors apply to eliminate that advantage?

So, two instances of people being allowed to buy their way ahead of merit. If an offending Black Hawk pilot had been a West Pointer and a White male, any chance our DEI Warriors would be attacking them for possibly getting in because of campaign contribution "DEI"?

Answer, not a chance in hell.

Let's wait and hear excuses why making West Point a pure meritocracy has never been brought up here, ever. It is easy to do, eliminate congressional appointment and require acceptance solely on admission scores. Not campaign contributions, not legacy status, just pure points.

 

[76-1]

How do people get into West Point? Individual congressmen appoint them. They have to meet minimum requirements, but who is to say a candidate from my district gets appointed who barely meets while a candidate whose parents don't donate big money well exceeds minimum doesn't. Isn't that just like DEI? How many of us complain about that? Has anyone brought it up on this board, ever? Congress had legislation to remove Congress from this in the 70s, since 1983 it has not had a single bill to eliminate this perk of wealthy campaign contributions.

I know I bring up college legacy admissions. Harvard admitting someone whose family gave a million is not meritocracy. How much pressure do our DEI warriors apply to eliminate that advantage?

So, two instances of people being allowed to buy their way ahead of merit. If an offending Black Hawk pilot had been a West Pointer and a White male, any chance our DEI Warriors would be attacking them for possibly getting in because of campaign contribution "DEI"?

Answer, not a chance in hell.

Let's wait and hear excuses why making West Point a pure meritocracy has never been brought up here, ever. It is easy to do, eliminate congressional appointment and require acceptance solely on admission scores. Not campaign contributions, not legacy status, just pure points.

Coming from a history buff such as yourself I would have thought you'd have known better than to post something like that...

Service Academy Appointments are among the most competitive Merit Based selections on the planet and have been going back to their inception...

Even if someone were able to somehow buy their way in, they'd be extremely sorry they did if they didn't meet the minimum standards baseline of their entire class and they'd suffer every day they were there until they were drummed out...

Two of my nephews graduated from West Point and neither had silver spoons in their mouths or any avenue to buy their way in...

Academy Appointments have little or nothing in common with DEI which routinely ignores Merit Based Competition in order to meet their own fantasy of "equity & inclusion"... (at all costs)...

Now the Academies these days may have been pushed to target certain percentages of gender and race but even those falling into that basket still have to meet the minimum extremely high standards of those they're competing against for the Appointment, along with those they're competing against in their class.

 

[76-1]

This article bolsters what Micheal Person was saying above :

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC.

nypost.com

It also partially explains why we have an ATC shortage...

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Coming from a history buff such as yourself I would have thought you'd have known better than to post something like that...

Service Academy Appointments are among the most competitive Merit Based selections on the planet and have been going back to their inception...

Even if someone were able to somehow buy their way in, they'd be extremely sorry they did if they didn't meet the minimum standards baseline of their entire class and they'd suffer every day they were there until they were drummed out...

Two of my nephews graduated from West Point and neither had silver spoons in their mouths or any avenue to buy their way in...

Academy Appointments have little or nothing in common with DEI which routinely ignores Merit Based Competition in order to meet their own fantasy of "equity & inclusion"... (at all costs)...

Now the Academies these days may have been pushed to target certain percentages of gender and race but even those falling into that basket still have to meet the minimum extremely high standards of those they're competing against (for the Appointment).

Right, they have to meet a minimum. But isn't it very possible a minimum gets in where people who exceed do not. If Congress isn't using it as a perk, wouldn't they have removed themselves? It adds in another idea, the 10 best candidates might all be from the same congressional district. The current system doesn't allow for that.

I know I posted the story a couple of years ago about the new Pentagon DEI program requiring jobs to be posted. Before that jobs were hired word of mouth, the old boys network. We know it has existed a long time, Band of Brothers Norman Dike was put in command from the old boys network. So will the removal of DEI return us to that in jobs at the Pentagon? I mean we don't want a DEI initiative requiring all jobs being posted to stand.


I am all for meritocracy, but that would include things like legacy admissions at universities.

 

[Spartans9312]

Right, they have to meet a minimum. But isn't it very possible a minimum gets in where people who exceed do not. If Congress isn't using it as a perk, wouldn't they have removed themselves? It adds in another idea, the 10 best candidates might all be from the same congressional district. The current system doesn't allow for that.

I know I posted the story a couple of years ago about the new Pentagon DEI program requiring jobs to be posted. Before that jobs were hired word of mouth, the old boys network. We know it has existed a long time, Band of Brothers Norman Dike was put in command from the old boys network. So will the removal of DEI return us to that in jobs at the Pentagon? I mean we don't want a DEI initiative requiring all jobs being posted to stand.


I am all for meritocracy, but that would include things like legacy admissions at universities.

Do you think we need racial quotas?

 

[mcmurtry66]

How do people get into West Point? Individual congressmen appoint them. They have to meet minimum requirements, but who is to say a candidate from my district gets appointed who barely meets while a candidate whose parents don't donate big money well exceeds minimum doesn't. Isn't that just like DEI? How many of us complain about that? Has anyone brought it up on this board, ever? Congress had legislation to remove Congress from this in the 70s, since 1983 it has not had a single bill to eliminate this perk of wealthy campaign contributions.

I know I bring up college legacy admissions. Harvard admitting someone whose family gave a million is not meritocracy. How much pressure do our DEI warriors apply to eliminate that advantage?

So, two instances of people being allowed to buy their way ahead of merit. If an offending Black Hawk pilot had been a West Pointer and a White male, any chance our DEI Warriors would be attacking them for possibly getting in because of campaign contribution "DEI"?

Answer, not a chance in hell.

Let's wait and hear excuses why making West Point a pure meritocracy has never been brought up here, ever. It is easy to do, eliminate congressional appointment and require acceptance solely on admission scores. Not campaign contributions, not legacy status, just pure points.

Bc we can assume but we don’t know. With respect to stem. Engineering programs we know MIT is 5 percent black. It was something like 13 plus when they could factor in race. We know where races fall on the mcat, lsat. Etc. It’s an objective measure we have to sort

 

[baileyiu]

This article bolsters what Micheal Person was saying above :

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC.

nypost.com

It also partially explains why we have an ATC shortage...

How does DEI cause a shortage in ATC's? All hires must complete a rigid training program to become an ATC. If we need more ATC"s - increase the number of candidates entered into the training program. It is pretty simple - if you need 2000 ATC's and the failure/drop out rate is 50% , you need 4000 in the training program. It appears the funding is not there to increase the size of the training program. It would seem DEI would increase the number of candidates and the number of those entered in the training program.
,
,

 

[hookyIU1990]

Getting on an American flight this afternoon. Hope the pilots are white dudes in their mid to late 50s.

This post was for my own amusement and is an obvious troll.

 

[BradStevens]

How do people get into West Point? Individual congressmen appoint them. They have to meet minimum requirements, but who is to say a candidate from my district gets appointed who barely meets while a candidate whose parents don't donate big money well exceeds minimum doesn't. Isn't that just like DEI? How many of us complain about that? Has anyone brought it up on this board, ever? Congress had legislation to remove Congress from this in the 70s, since 1983 it has not had a single bill to eliminate this perk of wealthy campaign contributions.

I know I bring up college legacy admissions. Harvard admitting someone whose family gave a million is not meritocracy. How much pressure do our DEI warriors apply to eliminate that advantage?

So, two instances of people being allowed to buy their way ahead of merit. If an offending Black Hawk pilot had been a West Pointer and a White male, any chance our DEI Warriors would be attacking them for possibly getting in because of campaign contribution "DEI"?

Answer, not a chance in hell.

Let's wait and hear excuses why making West Point a pure meritocracy has never been brought up here, ever. It is easy to do, eliminate congressional appointment and require acceptance solely on admission scores. Not campaign contributions, not legacy status, just pure points.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[BradStevens]

Getting on an American flight this afternoon. Hope the pilots are white dudes in their mid to late 50s.

This post was for my own amusement and is an obvious troll.

Poke your head in the cabin and make sure.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Getting on an American flight this afternoon. Hope the pilots are white dudes in their mid to late 50s.

This post was for my own amusement and is an obvious troll.

The profiling isn’t perfect. What you named has the highest likelihood of a drunk pilot

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Getting on an American flight this afternoon. Hope the pilots are white dudes in their mid to late 50s.

This post was for my own amusement and is an obvious troll.

Just like I want the Dr doing my surgery to be Asian or Indian.

 

[NPT]

This article bolsters what Micheal Person was saying above :

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC.

nypost.com

It also partially explains why we have an ATC shortage...

A slight hijack: I think every business should be able to operate like the NFL, NBA, MLB etc as far as team makeup... you pick the people that you think best fits your team.

 

[BradStevens]

Right, they have to meet a minimum. But isn't it very possible a minimum gets in where people who exceed do not. If Congress isn't using it as a perk, wouldn't they have removed themselves? It adds in another idea, the 10 best candidates might all be from the same congressional district. The current system doesn't allow for that.

I know I posted the story a couple of years ago about the new Pentagon DEI program requiring jobs to be posted. Before that jobs were hired word of mouth, the old boys network. We know it has existed a long time, Band of Brothers Norman Dike was put in command from the old boys network. So will the removal of DEI return us to that in jobs at the Pentagon? I mean we don't want a DEI initiative requiring all jobs being posted to stand.


I am all for meritocracy, but that would include things like legacy admissions at universities.

Keep the requirement to post all jobs. Don't call it DEI.

I'm guessing very few here will object to that.

 

[UncleMark]

How do people get into West Point? Individual congressmen appoint them. They have to meet minimum requirements, but who is to say a candidate from my district gets appointed who barely meets while a candidate whose parents don't donate big money well exceeds minimum doesn't. Isn't that just like DEI? How many of us complain about that?

FWIW, back in the early 70s Lee Hamilton would solicit names from the various high schools in his district, who were then asked to apply for admission through his office. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Guess you missed or ignored the first half of my opening sentence: "I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River Crash"...
That said..., I also don't think you can dismiss, out of hand, Anything that may have had an effect, big or small, on any of the personnel involved in any aspect of this disaster....

Accidents like this are often the result of a myriad of things that have an influence in setting up the circumstances for the accident to take place... Little mistakes add up in the Negative in life or death situations..., especially when it comes to aviation.

Things that may have had an affect on the accident such as: Control Tower staffing, ATC overall training, pilot competence (in relation to the others in her unit), pilot training, Unit Command competence, Unit Command attention to detail, (such as: why allow a training mission to be run short one crewman [who very well might have seen the correct aircraft from their position in the fuselage] in a high traffic area....?). Was the pilots training degraded or impaired by the amount of time spent as window dressing at the White House versus actual flight time...??

All those questions (and more left unsaid) are valid ones in regard to their potentially having some bearing, large or small on the catastrophic result...

The pilot convincingly Failed her training flight by the way..., and so did the ATC (FAIL) in their lack of situational awareness, and incomplete communications with the helicopter pilot...

Why the ATC didn't just tell the chopper to Stop and Hold your position when it appeared there might be a flight traffic conflict is baffling (those choppers can go into a flare, stop and hover)...

I think the answers to all those those questions and more might very well not be the ones you'll find palatable...

The female pilot was a UNC grad and top 20 percent of Army ROTC grads. Like ship drivers (me) who don't serve in ships their entire careers, pilots don't graduate and fly their entire careers. After initial training and initial flight tour, they have a non-flight tour. For me, my first non-ship tour was Naval Postgraduate School and for her it was apparently an assignment in the White House, which by the way, are highly competitive assignments that go to top performers.

UNC Grad Rebecca Lobach Named as Third Soldier in Airliner, Army Helicopter Crash - Chapelboro.com

The U.S. Army revealed UNC alumna and Triangle native Rebecca Lobach as one of the soldiers in the helicopter and plane crash on Jan. 29.

chapelboro.com

 

[Cortez88]

Just like I want the Dr doing my surgery to be Asian or Indian.

I don’t give a shit about their ethnicity or nationality. But I absolutely want them to be driving a Mercedes. S Class preferably.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

That was my question. How do you prove there were mistakes made in that crash as a direct result of DEI initiatives? Conversely, are you suggesting that a non- DEI hire wouldn’t have had the wherewithal to avoid this accident?

I don’t think you can prove that.

And by that logic, if three co-pilots made up of a black woman, trans person and Native American fly a series of perfect Tomahawk missions and rate higher than every other pilot, does that mean DEI initiatives work?

Do you see how stupid this is? Trying to squint and tilt your head to blame last week’s tragedy on DEI initiatives is dumb.

There are two ways to look at DEI.

1. First look at the individual(s) who made critical mistakes and ask if those are “DEI hires”. This analycan never prove anything because we are looking at invidual ability and DEI means nothing in that context. BTW, while the term “DEI hires” might sound clever in some cases, I think it is meaningless.

2. Look at the effect DEI has on the organization. Any requirement that limits the applicant pool in my view , will do long term damage. I think this has happened to the FAA and most all of government.

I blame Democrats.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Correct. So Harvard did not accept Blacks in 1880 when some White family started a run of Harvard Men. A second wrong, putting a new member of that family in ahead of someone else today is a second wrong. It doesn't make it right.

Otherwise I think you are misinterpreting what I said when I said I favor a meritocracy. Let's have one. Get rid of DEI. But then we ALSO have to get rid of other things such as legacy. I'll pick on CO, I believe he represented the city of Fort Collins. How I have seen it work in Indiana, if he wanted his kids to get a plum summer job for the city parks, he would pick up his phone and call a contact. My son is looking for a lifeguard job at XYZ pool. Sure, have him stop by, we'll get him on. All that has to go. If we want a meritocracy we have to get rid of all of this. I'm not saying bring back DEI, I am saying let's get rid of it all. All jobs. No more hiring the frat brother, the church friend's son, etc. It all has to be meritocracy. Do we all agree with that?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Guess you missed or ignored the first half of my opening sentence: "I personally don't see it as being directly responsible for the Reagan, Potomac River Crash"...
That said..., I also don't think you can dismiss, out of hand, Anything that may have had an effect, big or small, on any of the personnel involved in any aspect of this disaster....

Accidents like this are often the result of a myriad of things that have an influence in setting up the circumstances for the accident to take place... Little mistakes add up in the Negative in life or death situations..., especially when it comes to aviation.

Things that may have had an affect on the accident such as: Control Tower staffing, ATC overall training, pilot competence (in relation to the others in her unit), pilot training, Unit Command competence, Unit Command attention to detail, (such as: why allow a training mission to be run short one crewman [who very well might have seen the correct aircraft from their position in the fuselage] in a high traffic area....?). Was the pilots training degraded or impaired by the amount of time spent as window dressing at the White House versus actual flight time...??

All those questions (and more left unsaid) are valid ones in regard to their potentially having some bearing, large or small on the catastrophic result...

The pilot convincingly Failed her training flight by the way..., and so did the ATC (FAIL) in their lack of situational awareness, and incomplete communications with the helicopter pilot...

Why the ATC didn't just tell the chopper to Stop and Hold your position when it appeared there might be a flight traffic conflict is baffling (those choppers can go into a flare, stop and hover)...

I think the answers to all those those questions and more might very well not be the ones you'll find palatable...

Two things are becoming clear.

1. The helicopter pilot was off course and too high. Pilot error.
2. The ATC didn’t see the error or didn’t take strong enough action if it was seen.

 

[Ohio Guy]

There are two ways to look at DEI.

1. First look at the individual(s) who made critical mistakes and ask if those are “DEI hires”. This analycan never prove anything because we are looking at invidual ability and DEI means nothing in that context. BTW, while the term “DEI hires” might sound clever in some cases, I think it is meaningless.

2. Look at the effect DEI has on the organization. Any requirement that limits the applicant pool in my view , will do long term damage. I think this has happened to the FAA and most all of government.

I blame Democrats.

View embedded media

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement. Or that there hasn't been instances of overreach or taking things too far.

That said, I do think there are unbendable standards and criteria that are still being met, regardless of the HR hiring pool. Despite what might be implied, no one is flying a commercial plane or military helicopter without being fully trained, qualified and accomplished. In some fields - like medicine - it's actually harder than it's ever been to meet the criteria, standards and rigor to reach the highest level of your field.

Some people fail out of medical school. Some people don't make it through flight training. Some people can't pass the bar. Once you make it past the initial point of entry in all those fields, it's all merit based from that point on.

 

[twenty02]

Correct. So Harvard did not accept Blacks in 1880 when some White family started a run of Harvard Men. A second wrong, putting a new member of that family in ahead of someone else today is a second wrong. It doesn't make it right.

Otherwise I think you are misinterpreting what I said when I said I favor a meritocracy. Let's have one. Get rid of DEI. But then we ALSO have to get rid of other things such as legacy. I'll pick on CO, I believe he represented the city of Fort Collins. How I have seen it work in Indiana, if he wanted his kids to get a plum summer job for the city parks, he would pick up his phone and call a contact. My son is looking for a lifeguard job at XYZ pool. Sure, have him stop by, we'll get him on. All that has to go. If we want a meritocracy we have to get rid of all of this. I'm not saying bring back DEI, I am saying let's get rid of it all. All jobs. No more hiring the frat brother, the church friend's son, etc. It all has to be meritocracy. Do we all agree with that?

Who the hell is going to enforce that?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

That was my question. How do you prove there were mistakes made in that crash as a direct result of DEI initiatives? Conversely, are you suggesting that a non- DEI hire wouldn’t have had the wherewithal to avoid this accident?

I don’t think you can prove that.

And by that logic, if three co-pilots made up of a black woman, trans person and Native American fly a series of perfect Tomahawk missions and rate higher than every other pilot, does that mean DEI initiatives work?

Do you see how stupid this is? Trying to squint and tilt your head to blame last week’s tragedy on DEI initiatives is dumb.

Just blaming DEI because of anybody's race, ethnicity, sex, etc. makes no sense. I'm open to that conclusion if it can be demonstrated that somebody got into a position they shouldn't have because of DEI or anything that looks like demographic preference. But to just point to it because "Hey the pilot was a chick!" isn't of any help at all.

If you're in favor of evaluating people on their individual merits, then jumping to conclusions because of the pilot's sex is a major disservice to that.

The primary problem with DEI as public policy is that most iterations of it I've seen seem like violations of Equal Protection. I firmly believe that the Equal Protection Clause mandates total neutrality in preference for race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc. We've got to stop picking and choosing when Equal Protection applies. It always applies, to everything the government touches.

But it's also a terrible waste of resources -- which is why I think private entities should stay away from it as well. They're not mandated to do so (as long as they don't come under the aegis of Title II or Title VI) and can do as they want.

We need to strive for neutrality in matters dealing with race, ethnicity, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement. Or that there hasn't been instances of overreach or taking things too far.

That said, I do think there are unbendable standards and criteria that are still being met, regardless of the HR hiring pool. Despite what might be implied, no one is flying a commercial plane or military helicopter without being fully trained, qualified and accomplished. In some fields - like medicine - it's actually harder than it's ever been to meet the criteria, standards and rigor to reach the highest level of your field.

Some people fail out of medical school. Some people don't make it through flight training. Some people can't pass the bar. Once you make it past the initial point of entry in all those fields, it's all merit based from that point on.

Disagree.

That Air France plane that plunged into the Atlantic years ago shows how pilot tracing has changed— for the worse. . Part of the reason is the lack of experienced military pilots who flew as commercial pilots. Moreover, meeting minimum standards is not a big deal. You want those who far exceed the minims.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Who the hell is going to enforce that?

Yeah, that seems...unworkable.

Not that it isn't right in a philosophical sense. But all we can really shape is public policy. The notion of Fred calling his friend Bob to help out his son, or something along those lines, is never not going to be a thing.

FTR, DEI as a matter of public policy (IMO) violates the 14A. And it doesn't even really need to go beyond that. As a matter of policy for private entities, I think they're free do what they want within the law. But they should probably be careful that they aren't violating EEO laws or things like Title VI or Title II in the name of expanding diversity.

I'm all for diversity, truly. Forced diversity is another matter. And I do also believe that individual merit should prevail over racial, ethnic, religious, etc. diversity. You can't give favor to people in one group without giving disfavor to people in some other group. And that's a problem.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Two things are becoming clear.

1. The helicopter pilot was off course and too high. Pilot error.
2. The ATC didn’t see the error or didn’t take strong enough action if it was seen.

It seems to me like maintaining safe separation is something that could and should be aided by technological development.

We have systems that know precisely where these objects are located in all 3 dimensions. And we also know their headings and climb rates. If any two of them are on trajectories to even run close to violating separation minimums, I can't see why that can't be anticipated well in advance.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Correct. So Harvard did not accept Blacks in 1880 when some White family started a run of Harvard Men. A second wrong, putting a new member of that family in ahead of someone else today is a second wrong. It doesn't make it right.

Otherwise I think you are misinterpreting what I said when I said I favor a meritocracy. Let's have one. Get rid of DEI. But then we ALSO have to get rid of other things such as legacy. I'll pick on CO, I believe he represented the city of Fort Collins. How I have seen it work in Indiana, if he wanted his kids to get a plum summer job for the city parks, he would pick up his phone and call a contact. My son is looking for a lifeguard job at XYZ pool. Sure, have him stop by, we'll get him on. All that has to go. If we want a meritocracy we have to get rid of all of this. I'm not saying bring back DEI, I am saying let's get rid of it all. All jobs. No more hiring the frat brother, the church friend's son, etc. It all has to be meritocracy. Do we all agree with that?

Impossible but yes

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Who the hell is going to enforce that?

Ah, the run. I don't have a good solution. In some cases, if discovered, we can use societal pressure to try and stop it. I know there are people trying to stop seeing work by Hollywood nepo babies.

But overall, we know word-of-mouth hiring happens. Requiring jobs be posted and interviews happen might help, but it can't stop person X from hiring son of friend Z. But if we know it happens, and we know Whites tend to be more in a position of power, can't we at least acknowledge it is a problem?