All The Butt Hurt is Making Me a Trump Fan

[crazed_hoosier2]

LOL...I've never been against redistribution.

I just think that we have way too much of it -- because politicians figured out that they can use other people's money to buy enough votes to stay perched in Congress for their entire working career. And it's an integral part of human nature to want something for nothing. So those politicians and those voters have a classic co-dependency relationship.

It's a necessary evil. But it's not a basis upon which to build a thriving nation....which Europe is about to figure out in a big and painful way, if they haven't yet.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I also firmly believe that any civilized society is going to have to engage in some kind of wealth/income redistribution...or else it won't be very civilized for very long.

Wealth and income maldistribution is not the problem. Those are a symptom of the problem.

The primary problem is maldistribution of quality education. This leads to untold social problems that aggravate wealth and income inequality. We are now in our second and third generations of poorly educated parents raising kids and even in some cases teaching kids and running school systems.

 

[BradStevens]

LOL...I've never been against redistribution.

I just think that we have way too much of it -- because politicians figured out that they can use other people's money to buy enough votes to stay perched in Congress for their entire working career. And it's an integral part of human nature to want something for nothing. So those politicians and those voters have a classic co-dependency relationship.

It's a necessary evil. But it's not a basis upon which to build a thriving nation....which Europe is about to figure out in a big and painful way, if they haven't yet.

We might quibble on the edges, but I'm just talking about your recognition of human nature.

It always puzzles me when conservatives and libertarians criticize liberals for their utopian views of human nature, only to then turn around and fail to recognize how human nature might put a monkey wrench into their stated best form of society.

 

[BradStevens]

Wealth and income maldistribution is not the problem. Those are a symptom of the problem.

The primary problem is maldistribution of quality education. This leads to untold social problems that aggravate wealth and income inequality. We are now in our second and third generations of poorly educated parents raising kids and even in some cases teaching kids and running school systems.

Sounds like we need some reeducation camps set up pronto.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Which is part of the larger issue.

Our societal structure is still rather primitive.
We have a ruling class that is willing to resort to threats and intimidation to get our money, claim ownership of our labor.

In a more ethical and civil society,
people in government programs would instead compete for our money just like everyone else in the marketplace.

Bad ideas require threats and intimidation,
Good ideas do not.

The separation of money and state will be an eventual societal advancement.

Hmm.

Look, I have never been anything but 100% in favor of fee-for-service taxation. Tolls are a terrific way to pay for roads, highways, and bridges. There is no better way to pay for them. And I'm also in favor of extending that as far as we can in public services.

But there's only so far we can go with that. Most people don't recognize the value that institutions like the NIH and CDC bring to them. But, whatever their faults, they absolutely do bring value to us. How exactly do we make something like that voluntary? Make that a check box on peoples' tax returns? And then what? Their funding gets cut drastically, when their mission is work intended to advance and protect the health of every man, woman, and child? How do they provide such a service only to those who pay for it?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

We might quibble on the edges, but I'm just talking about your recognition of human nature.

It always puzzles me when conservatives and libertarians criticize liberals for their utopian views of human nature, only to then turn around and fail to recognize how human nature might put a monkey wrench into their stated best form of society.

Well, I have no inclination to start that whole conversation again.

But I'm certainly not going to apologize for the critiques I've made against various faults I see in how some view (or disregard) human nature. I agree that dogmatic libertarians get it wrong just as much as liberals and progressives.

And I'm not saying that my views of human nature are themselves beyond critique. But I do think that our public policy, on the whole, has been shaped largely by how @twenty02 described it. We insist that our politicians do the impossible, as Milton explains to his audience here:

 

[BradStevens]

Well, I have no inclination to start that whole conversation again.

But I'm certainly not going to apologize for the critiques I've made against various faults I see in how some view (or disregard) human nature. I agree that dogmatic libertarians get it wrong just as much as liberals and progressives.

And I'm not saying that my views of human nature are themselves beyond critique. But I do think that our public policy, on the whole, has been shaped largely by how @twenty02 described it. We insist that our politicians do the impossible, as Milton explains to his audience here:

View embedded media

I agree with many conservative critiques of liberal attitudes about human nature. I'm just saying there are also valid critiques of conservative assumptions about human nature as well.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

We might quibble on the edges, but I'm just talking about your recognition of human nature.

It always puzzles me when conservatives and libertarians criticize liberals for their utopian views of human nature, only to then turn around and fail to recognize how human nature might put a monkey wrench into their stated best form of society.

One other thing to add...one of my biggest complains about liberal/progressive politicians is that they exploit this fault in human nature. These people, to me, literally build their careers on promising to deliver the impossible to voters. They promise to get them healthcare, education, housing, high pay, etc. etc. (in addition to infrastructure and all the other things we all agree government should do) without it costing them much, if anything. Just Remember November.

And I find that incredibly cynical, self-serving, and frankly abusive.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Wealth and income maldistribution is not the problem. Those are a symptom of the problem.

The primary problem is maldistribution of quality education. This leads to untold social problems that aggravate wealth and income inequality. We are now in our second and third generations of poorly educated parents raising kids and even in some cases teaching kids and running school systems.

You saying this reminds me of Reagan's old quip:

"We were poor when I was young but the difference was that the government didn't come around telling you you were poor."

Envy is an integral part of human nature. And it's a hard thing to overcome. We all feel it at times. But there are people who foment and exploit it for their own political purposes. And, as I say that, remember the quote from Sen. Moynihan about why liberals were so fearful of adding a wealth component to Social Security: "They're afraid that wealth will turn Democrats into Republicans."

I will never forget that quote. It is so depressingly revealing.

 

[BradStevens]

You saying this reminds me of Reagan's old quip:

"We were poor when I was young but the difference was that the government didn't come around telling you you were poor."

Envy is an integral part of human nature. And it's a hard thing to overcome. We all feel it at times. But there are people who foment and exploit it for their own political purposes. And, as I say that, remember the quote from Sen. Moynihan about why liberals were so fearful of adding a wealth component to Social Security: "They're afraid that wealth will turn Democrats into Republicans."

I will never forget that quote. It is so depressingly revealing.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”​

― Alexander Fraser Tytler

(might be a false attribution)

Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Envy is an integral part of human nature.

I kinda agree. But whether envy becomes a disabling obsession is a different matter. In any event government- mandated redistribution won’t fix the causes of income inequality nor will it fix envy.

 

[BradStevens]

I kinda agree. But whether envy becomes a disabling obsession is a different matter. In any event government- mandated redistribution won’t fix the causes of income inequality nor will it fix envy.

It doesn't have to. It just needs to satisfy enough people in enough of a way as to make civil society possible and stave off civil unrest and revolution.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It doesn't have to. It just needs to satisfy enough people in enough of a way as to make civil society possible and stave off civil unrest and revolution.

On that note and not to hijack but an interesting lesson from Covid was that while all of that insane free cheese spiked inflation it also gave rise to the lowest number under the poverty line in ages. As we slash and burn agencies I’d love to see us slash and burn a shit ton of programs and pass through grants that are designed to help the poor and just do means tested basic income and see what happens. I have a sneaky suspicion it would save money and provide better outcomes.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It doesn't have to. It just needs to satisfy enough people in enough of a way as to make civil society possible and stave off civil unrest and revolution.

Did you read my post about Abraham Lincoln?

I don’t think a civil society is possible that is based in any way on assuaging envy.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

No pocket protector son. Just a little spiral. Funny story. I have a buddy whose father in law had one. I was at their wedding reception and had a nice conversation with him. At the end of the conversation he pulled that little notebook out of his front pocket. Made some notes. Then walked off. Once of the most disarming disconcerting things I’ve ever experienced. For years I’ve wondered what he put in there

Dear Diary,

Today, I met a nice young man at Mike's reception. I don't really remember what we were talking about, but he just kept talking about how he hates woke. I told him that's the goal everyday, just see another sunshine. Anyway, I think I can learn some things from him... he was one snazzy dresser. I've never seen someone wear what he called, Lulu pants (I really have to get me a pair) and a really nice quarter zip. He lost points for brown shoes though... can't do that with black. If I see ever see him again, I have to remember to tell him he should really think about wearing hats. It's just not working up there for him. Mike told me something called flatbills are in... he just needs something to cover that mess.

I cant wait for tomorrow, we actually have a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time.

Anyway, I'll chat later. K-bye

 

[twenty02]

On that note and not to hijack but an interesting lesson from Covid was that while all of that insane free cheese spiked inflation it also gave rise to the lowest number under the poverty line in ages. As we slash and burn agencies I’d love to see us slash and burn a shit ton of programs and pass through grants that are designed to help the poor and just do means tested basic income and see what happens. I have a sneaky suspicion it would save money and provide better outcomes.

Transfers to state govt is a larger share of Fed spending than defense.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Dear Diary,

Today, I met a nice young man at Mike's reception. I don't really remember what we were talking about, but he just kept talking about how he hates woke. I told him that's the goal everyday, just see another sunshine. Anyway, I think I can learn some things from him... he was one snazzy dresser. I've never seen someone wear what he called, Lulu pants (I really have to get me a pair) and a really nice quarter zip. He lost points for brown shoes though... can't do that with black. If I see ever see him again, I have to remember to tell him he should really think about wearing hats. It's just not working up there for him. Mike told me something called flatbills are in... he just needs something to cover that mess.

I cant wait for tomorrow, we actually have a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time.

Anyway, I'll chat later. K-bye

Lol this was long before woke or lulu 🤣. He was some kind of farmer. I suspect it was more like this

Met nice young man. Had hair like Elvis.
Played soccer but was grown. Odd
Basic travel/distance questions. Did not know. Pressed. Then made up answers
Alcoholic
Farm question was child like
Avoid at future events

*first to leave reception

 

[hookyIU1990]

Straight outta the range bag

 

[hookyIU1990]

I am not aware of any instances of fraud that DOGE has uncovered. If they have, they haven't told any of us about them.

Elon & Co. are using that term a lot. But it's always been conjecture regarding data that doesn't look quite right. The latest example is the table he published showing 12m persons in a Social Security database over the age of 120. The likely explanation for this is names that were entered in manually decades ago and have never been properly cleaned up. It's a problem that they've never been cleaned up. But it doesn't necessarily imply fraud...even if he's characterized it that way.

My fraud comment was more about the general BS that's gone on, not specifically with DOGE. I should have been a little clearer. I'm just fed up with all of it right now to be perfectly honest.

A co-author of that report, GAO Director Rebecca Shea, tells NPR that while government fraud and waste makes up an estimated 3% and 7% of federal spending, the overwhelming majority of federal spending isn't fraudulent.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/16/g-s1-49261/we-can-do-better-gao-director-welcomes-renewed-focus-on-government-fraud

3-7% of the $2,440,000,000 spent to date in this fiscal year is still a lot of money.


And @All4You here's the flag I have hanging in my garage.

 

[Stuffshot]

Industries (actually companies) that have been run like the federal government has been/are being run aren't able to reach a stage where they're considered mature. If the fed gov was a private business it would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

Why compare government to a business?

A government is intended to provide services.

A business is intended to make profit.

Those who think like your post are the ones who want the city park department to profit by charging poor people $150 to reserve a picnic table in the summer.

 

[DANC]

I am not aware of any instances of fraud that DOGE has uncovered. If they have, they haven't told any of us about them.

Elon & Co. are using that term a lot. But it's always been conjecture regarding data that doesn't look quite right. The latest example is the table he published showing 12m persons in a Social Security database over the age of 120. The likely explanation for this is names that were entered in manually decades ago and have never been properly cleaned up. It's a problem that they've never been cleaned up. But it doesn't necessarily imply fraud...even if he's characterized it that way.

If you're not going to call it, fraud, you have to call it scam.

There's no way the American taxpayer would pay for some of the things USAID was funding.

 

[Stuffshot]

It’s stepping over dollars to chase pennies but this is part of the same 40 percent at all levels where staffing is bloated the same worn out programs are refunded year after year and we still have 35 million under the poverty line. The shit you see at United way with member agencies never changes

I addition to all the rest tax reform is desperately needed

We don't chase pennies anymore.

Trump says he has directed US Treasury to stop minting new pennies, citing rising cost

President Donald Trump says he has directed the Treasury Department to stop minting new pennies, citing the rising cost of producing the one-cent coin.

apnews.com

 

[DANC]

Federal income taxes are about 50% of govt revenue.

Revenue from social insurance program taxes (mainly FICA) are about 35% of Federal revenue. (Other 15% is corp tax and some other misc)

But then we've got this on the spending side of the ledger....

So we're spending 63% of the budget on items that only have funding sources in place that account for 35% of revenue. And none of this is ever up up for any vote, ever. Just autopilot.

And then we all keep arguing about the 30% slice of the pie that's getting crowded out and decreases every year.

I hope you're not claiming that Social Security is not 100% funded today.

 

[Stuffshot]

I should also add that quite a few taxpayers don't have a zero next to their name. They have a negative number -- thanks to refundable tax credits like EITC and CTC.

FTR, I have absolutely no complaint against these. While I firmly believe that our welfare state has become morbidly obese, I also firmly believe that any civilized society is going to have to engage in some kind of wealth/income redistribution...or else it won't be very civilized for very long.

A lot of people don't get your point.

When you see the unemployment projections for future years when AI fully kicks in, it's apparent that government services will be needed.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Why compare government to a business?

A government is intended to provide services.

A business is intended to make profit.

Those who think like your post are the ones who want the city park department to profit by charging poor people $150 to reserve a picnic table in the summer.

I didn't make the comparison to begin with. I simply said they should keep moving ahead as quickly as possible and fix the mistakes they make just as quickly.

Your last point about how I think isn't remotely close to where I'm at in this. I do expect a government that takes its citizens' money under threat of violence to be held accountable when it comes to how they spend that money.

 

[DANC]

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”​

― Alexander Fraser Tytler

(might be a false attribution)

Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Believe that was Ben F.

But that's why we set up a Republic, not a democracy.

Our problem isn't the public voting for much of this - politicians who become millionaires on salaries of $175/year are the problem. We've allowed our government to corrupted by lobbyists and influence buying.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

A lot of people don't get your point.

When you see the unemployment projections for future years when AI fully kicks in, it's apparent that government services will be needed.

Assuming the projected employment collapse materializes, which historically it virtually never does.

But I’ll say this much: if AI proves to enhance productivity that much, then a lot of this discussion becomes academic.

 

[Univee2]

On that note and not to hijack but an interesting lesson from Covid was that while all of that insane free cheese spiked inflation it also gave rise to the lowest number under the poverty line in ages. As we slash and burn agencies I’d love to see us slash and burn a shit ton of programs and pass through grants that are designed to help the poor and just do means tested basic income and see what happens. I have a sneaky suspicion it would save money and provide better outcomes.

Kill the middleman.

What have all those trillions upon trillions gotten us?

Bigger bureaucracy.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Kill the middleman.

What have all those trillions upon trillions gotten us?

Bigger bureaucracy.

Kill the middleman!

 

[hookyIU1990]

Kill the middleman!

As a middleman of sorts, I say let's start with the lawyers!

 

[mcmurtry66]

As a middleman of sorts, I say let's start with the lawyers!

Coh will stroke out but AI can do so much lawyer shit

 

[hookyIU1990]

Coh will stroke out but AI can do so much lawyer shit

I think we had this discussion last fall, but I used ChatGPT to write our SaaS Ts & Cs. Just had our guy at Taft review it aftwerwards. Saved us whatever it would have been at 6something an hour or whatever his rate is now.

 

[twenty02]

I hope you're not claiming that Social Security is not 100% funded today.

Social security has been paying out more in benefits than it collects in tax revenue since 2008. But it's the lesser of our problems.

 

[Morrison]

No pocket protector son. Just a little spiral. Funny story. I have a buddy whose father in law had one. I was at their wedding reception and had a nice conversation with him. At the end of the conversation he pulled that little notebook out of his front pocket. Made some notes. Then walked off. Once of the most disarming disconcerting things I’ve ever experienced. For years I’ve wondered what he put in there

“I just bought this farm and a guy at the wedding said to just plant some crab legs under the soil and watch it grow. He seemed smart being a lawyer, too. He may have been fuking with me.” 🤔

 

[Stuffshot]

Coh will stroke out but AI can do so much lawyer shit

It can even piss off judges.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-york-lawyers-sanctioned-using-fake-chatgpt-cases-legal-brief-2023-06-22/

 

[Baller23Boogie]

It can even piss off judges.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-york-lawyers-sanctioned-using-fake-chatgpt-cases-legal-brief-2023-06-22/

Can you imagine being a client, being billed for their time, and finding out they were using chatgpt to write their briefings.

Wow.

 

[Stuffshot]

Assuming the projected employment collapse materializes, which historically it virtually never does.

But I’ll say this much: if AI proves to enhance productivity that much, then a lot of this discussion becomes academic.

"Historically", you say?

Please identify the last time that AI put millions of people out of work "historically."

The disenchanted former workers of companies who replaced their humans with AI robots with no prospects of human employment ever again will not treat their situation as "academic", as you claim.

This AI problem is new. It's not the steam engine or telegraph.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

"Historically", you say?

Please identify the last time that AI put millions of people out of work "historically."

The disenchanted former workers of companies who replaced their humans with AI robots with no prospects of human employment ever again will not treat their situation as "academic", as you claim.

This AI problem is new. It's not the steam engine or telegraph.

I’m talking about technological leaps in general.

And you don’t need to get all huffy with me. All I said is that predictions of doom and gloom about the adoption of labor-saving technologies have generally proven pessimistic.

And I don’t see any reason why this one would be any different. There will definitely be disruptions in labor markets. But I suspect the displaced labor will be applied somewhere. It would be incredibly costly to just sideline it.

You may not agree with that and that’s fine. Only time will tell - and all we can do is speculate.

 

[UncleMark]

All I said is that predictions of doom and gloom about the adoption of labor-saving technologies have generally proven pessimistic.
[...]There will definitely be disruptions in labor markets. But I suspect the displaced labor will be applied somewhere. It would be incredibly costly to just sideline it.

Personal computers put a lot of beancounters and number crunchers and secretaries out of work. There's no question that AI will be equally disruptive, but I don't think it will be the end of the world. The interesting part will be what happens when it starts to replace professionals rather than line workers and low level cubicle dwellers.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I’m talking about technological leaps in general.

And you don’t need to get all huffy with me. All I said is that predictions of doom and gloom about the adoption of labor-saving technologies have generally proven pessimistic.

And I don’t see any reason why this one would be any different. There will definitely be disruptions in labor markets. But I suspect the displaced labor will be applied somewhere. It would be incredibly costly to just sideline it.

You may not agree with that and that’s fine. Only time will tell - and all we can do is speculate.

His personality like a few others is incredibly grating. But with him you can use this!