A problem with ICE holds

[Marvin the Martian]

Here is an ACLU article about a Florida man picked up by the Monroe (FL) County Sheriff's office for a "low-level, marijuana-related offense". For some reason, ICE put a hold on him for deportation. The man is American. The man offered to show his birth certificate, his boss offered the other documents required to work. The Sheriff's office basically said none of that mattered, ICE had a hold and they were not going to release him no matter the evidence. This lasted several weeks.

He would be turned over to ICE, who held onto him for several days before they finally agreed to look at his birth certificate. They agreed he was an American, opened the door and let him out. Out in Miami, they didn't even return him to his hometown in the Keys where he had been arrested.

If you don't like the ACLU, the Key West newspaper has a video story.

There needs to be a time limit on ICE holds, or some sort of almost immediate appeal to a judge. Holding an American for weeks like this is completely and totally unconscionable. I've long said I never wanted America to become a "can I see your papers please" country, but even worse is having your papers and still being held.

 

[wiede]

Here is an ACLU article about a Florida man picked up by the Monroe (FL) County Sheriff's office for a "low-level, marijuana-related offense". For some reason, ICE put a hold on him for deportation. The man is American. The man offered to show his birth certificate, his boss offered the other documents required to work. The Sheriff's office basically said none of that mattered, ICE had a hold and they were not going to release him no matter the evidence. This lasted several weeks.

He would be turned over to ICE, who held onto him for several days before they finally agreed to look at his birth certificate. They agreed he was an American, opened the door and let him out. Out in Miami, they didn't even return him to his hometown in the Keys where he had been arrested.

If you don't like the ACLU, the Key West newspaper has a video story.

There needs to be a time limit on ICE holds, or some sort of almost immediate appeal to a judge. Holding an American for weeks like this is completely and totally unconscionable. I've long said I never wanted America to become a "can I see your papers please" country, but even worse is having your papers and still being held.

Thanks for the read. Unbelievable.

How was that not unconstitutional (it clearly is) Seems like a pretty good case for the man. What would it have hurt to at least let him try to prove that he’s a citizen.

And where exactly would they deport him? And they couldn’t even give him some courtesy transportation home after all of that?

This whole thing boggles my mind. That’s police state/authoritarian type behavior.

FWIW, the guy looks black/possibly Haitian or Dominican. I can almost promise you that this wouldn’t have happened to someone that looked like me (White guy with brown hair and brown eyes). Not saying race was a factor... but it had to be a factor.

This is what happens when the tone is set from the top. And you unleash extreme measures- there’s going to be fallout that reaches more than just the intended targets.

Hopefully this gets in front of a jury- the sheriff and his crew need to be an example of how not to behave. The worst part is that the taxpayers of that area are going to pay for the stupidity of their sheriff’s office. Similar to what happened in Maricopa county with Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Here is an ACLU article about a Florida man picked up by the Monroe (FL) County Sheriff's office for a "low-level, marijuana-related offense". For some reason, ICE put a hold on him for deportation. The man is American. The man offered to show his birth certificate, his boss offered the other documents required to work. The Sheriff's office basically said none of that mattered, ICE had a hold and they were not going to release him no matter the evidence. This lasted several weeks.

He would be turned over to ICE, who held onto him for several days before they finally agreed to look at his birth certificate. They agreed he was an American, opened the door and let him out. Out in Miami, they didn't even return him to his hometown in the Keys where he had been arrested.

If you don't like the ACLU, the Key West newspaper has a video story.

There needs to be a time limit on ICE holds, or some sort of almost immediate appeal to a judge. Holding an American for weeks like this is completely and totally unconscionable. I've long said I never wanted America to become a "can I see your papers please" country, but even worse is having your papers and still being held.

That's terrible.

Where in the hell were the lawyers representing Mr. Brown? When did the ACLU get involved with this case? Any competent lawyer would have had him in before a judge in a couple of days and probably out of jail after a hearing.

I'm sick and tired of these so-called lawyers who are nothing but political advocates. Why is the SPLC involved in this case? Why are two different branches of the ACLU? Just what is the ACLU "Immigrants’ Rights Project"? Are these lawyers client-centered or are they in it to advance an anti-I.C.E. cause? Lawyers from Gibson, Dunn are on the case and that is a good national firm. That is all Mr. Brown needs. The rest of these yahoos are in it just to put this case in their fund-raising materials to perpetuate funding for useless lawyering. If the ACLU lawyers knew about Mr Brown's predicament and didn't promptly file the papers to have the legality of his incarceration determined, I think those ACLU lawyers, and the ACLU, should have their asses sued. End of rant

I used to have a lot of sympathy for the ACLU and almost joined. Those were in the days when the ACLU lawyers actually represented people who had civi liberties claims. Now the ACLU seems like it is just another left wing advocacy group and the individual victims are merely grist for their mill.

 

[twenty02]

That's terrible.

Where in the hell were the lawyers representing Mr. Brown? When did the ACLU get involved with this case? Any competent lawyer would have had him in before a judge in a couple of days and probably out of jail after a hearing.

I'm sick and tired of these so-called lawyers who are nothing but political advocates. Why is the SPLC involved in this case? Why are two different branches of the ACLU? Just what is the ACLU "Immigrants’ Rights Project"? Are these lawyers client-centered or are they in it to advance an anti-I.C.E. cause? Lawyers from Gibson, Dunn are on the case and that is a good national firm. That is all Mr. Brown needs. The rest of these yahoos are in it just to put this case in their fund-raising materials to perpetuate funding for useless lawyering. If the ACLU lawyers knew about Mr Brown's predicament and didn't promptly file the papers to have the legality of his incarceration determined, I think those ACLU lawyers, and the ACLU, should have their asses sued. End of rant

I used to have a lot of sympathy for the ACLU and almost joined. Those were in the days when the ACLU lawyers actually represented people who had civi liberties claims. Now the ACLU seems like it is just another left wing advocacy group and the individual victims are merely grist for their mill.

I'm making a guess the guy didn't have a lawyer or the means to hire a competent one. And I'm sure it takes a decent amount of time before a group like the ACLU to even find out/get involved. This occurred back in April....they are just part of his lawsuit today.

Shouldn't your anger be focused upon the sheriff's office and ICE?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm making a guess the guy didn't have a lawyer or the means to hire a competent one. And I'm sure it takes a decent amount of time before a group like the ACLU to even find out/get involved. This occurred back in April....they are just part of his lawsuit today.

Shouldn't your anger be focused upon the sheriff's office and ICE?

The ACLU brags about having an immigration project. They do no good by getting on the bandwagon after the victim suffered an extended wrongful incarceration. They need to get out of the activist business and figure out how to help individual victims who are subject to process mistakes or deliberate abuse. Maybe those things don’t attract news coverage, but coverage shouldn’t be their objective. The individual had a lawyer because he was already involved with the criminal justice system.

Getting mad at people or institutions might be satisfying for some people, but that doesn’t help people like Mr Brown. The legal profession let him down. I’m looking at the ACLU on this one.

 

[toastedbread]

Here is an ACLU article about a Florida man picked up by the Monroe (FL) County Sheriff's office for a "low-level, marijuana-related offense". For some reason, ICE put a hold on him for deportation. The man is American. The man offered to show his birth certificate, his boss offered the other documents required to work. The Sheriff's office basically said none of that mattered, ICE had a hold and they were not going to release him no matter the evidence. This lasted several weeks.

He would be turned over to ICE, who held onto him for several days before they finally agreed to look at his birth certificate. They agreed he was an American, opened the door and let him out. Out in Miami, they didn't even return him to his hometown in the Keys where he had been arrested.

If you don't like the ACLU, the Key West newspaper has a video story.

There needs to be a time limit on ICE holds, or some sort of almost immediate appeal to a judge. Holding an American for weeks like this is completely and totally unconscionable. I've long said I never wanted America to become a "can I see your papers please" country, but even worse is having your papers and still being held.

Not the first time. I've read about this from time-to-time over the past number of years.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180427-htmlstory.html

That's terrible.

Where in the hell were the lawyers representing Mr. Brown? When did the ACLU get involved with this case? Any competent lawyer would have had him in before a judge in a couple of days and probably out of jail after a hearing.

I'm sick and tired of these so-called lawyers who are nothing but political advocates. Why is the SPLC involved in this case? Why are two different branches of the ACLU? Just what is the ACLU "Immigrants’ Rights Project"? Are these lawyers client-centered or are they in it to advance an anti-I.C.E. cause? Lawyers from Gibson, Dunn are on the case and that is a good national firm. That is all Mr. Brown needs. The rest of these yahoos are in it just to put this case in their fund-raising materials to perpetuate funding for useless lawyering. If the ACLU lawyers knew about Mr Brown's predicament and didn't promptly file the papers to have the legality of his incarceration determined, I think those ACLU lawyers, and the ACLU, should have their asses sued. End of rant

I used to have a lot of sympathy for the ACLU and almost joined. Those were in the days when the ACLU lawyers actually represented people who had civi liberties claims. Now the ACLU seems like it is just another left wing advocacy group and the individual victims are merely grist for their mill.

I agree with you. The ACLU has completely lost its way. They are all about pomp and publicity and do not care about people being victimized. Don't even get me started on this.

 

[toastedbread]

The ACLU brags about having an immigration project. They do no good by getting on the bandwagon after the victim suffered an extended wrongful incarceration. They need to get out of the activist business and figure out how to help individual victims who are subject to process mistakes or deliberate abuse. Maybe those things don’t attract news coverage, but coverage shouldn’t be their objective. The individual had a lawyer because he was already involved with the criminal justice system.

Getting mad at people or institutions might be satisfying for some people, but that doesn’t help people like Mr Brown. The legal profession let him down. I’m looking at the ACLU on this one.

The ACLU is useless in cases like this. Their processing time in Florida is 60 days minimum, and there is not even a number to call. I put in a request with them weeks ago to see if I would get a response and never heard back.

 

[HillzHoozier]

Here is an ACLU article about a Florida man picked up by the Monroe (FL) County Sheriff's office for a "low-level, marijuana-related offense". For some reason, ICE put a hold on him for deportation. The man is American. The man offered to show his birth certificate, his boss offered the other documents required to work. The Sheriff's office basically said none of that mattered, ICE had a hold and they were not going to release him no matter the evidence. This lasted several weeks.

He would be turned over to ICE, who held onto him for several days before they finally agreed to look at his birth certificate. They agreed he was an American, opened the door and let him out. Out in Miami, they didn't even return him to his hometown in the Keys where he had been arrested.

If you don't like the ACLU, the Key West newspaper has a video story.

There needs to be a time limit on ICE holds, or some sort of almost immediate appeal to a judge. Holding an American for weeks like this is completely and totally unconscionable. I've long said I never wanted America to become a "can I see your papers please" country, but even worse is having your papers and still being held.

Fargin ice holds!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Shouldn't your anger be focused upon the sheriff's office and ICE?

That would make too much sense.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

That would make too much sense.

For some people emotional angry outrage always makes the most sense. For others the responsibility of fixing injustice makes the most sense.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

For some people emotional angry outrage always makes the most sense. For others the responsibility of fixing injustice makes the most sense.

I'm not surprised to see you on the emotional angry outrage side of that divide.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm not surprised to see you on the emotional angry outrage side of that divide.

Lol. If we were both on the scene I’d be filing a writ to have Brown released and you’d be marching in angry protest if ICE and Trump.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Lol. If we were both on the scene I’d be filing a writ to have Brown released and you’d be marching in angry protest if ICE and Trump.

Right. That makes complete sense. *eyeroll*

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Right. That makes complete sense. *eyeroll*

Wut? Did I forget to say you’d be wearing a pink hat?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Wut? Did I forget to say you’d be wearing a pink hat?

No, you forgot to demonstrate any anger on my part. Your original comment was clearly directed at Marvin, who, unlike you, was placing his disdain with the people who were the source of the actual injustice. You, on the other hand, were placing your disdain with groups you find personally distasteful, but who nonetheless are not the source of the injustice. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that it is you, and not Marvin, who is concerned with emotional angry outbursts, rather than fixing, you know, injustice.

But you can't even stay on topic to that extent. Because I replied, I'm somehow now the target of your...let's politely call it "confusion"...even though I've demonstrated no anger whatsoever toward anyone.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

No, you forgot to demonstrate any anger on my part. Your original comment was clearly directed at Marvin, who, unlike you, was placing his disdain with the people who were the source of the actual injustice. You, on the other hand, were placing your disdain with groups you find personally distasteful, but who nonetheless are not the source of the injustice. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that it is you, and not Marvin, who is concerned with emotional angry outbursts, rather than fixing, you know, injustice.

But you can't even stay on topic to that extent. Because I replied, I'm somehow now the target of your...let's politely call it "confusion"...even though I've demonstrated no anger whatsoever toward anyone.

Brown was wrongfully incarcerated for weeks. There is a legal remedy to address that. Nobody bothered. One organization, the ACLU, exists to correct civil liberty deprivations. It failed. Instead it writes press releases about taking part in a civil action where competent counsel is already on board. Meanwhle, nobody seems to give a shit about Brown. Not even you. You are more concerned with Trump.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Brown was wrongfully incarcerated for weeks. There is a legal remedy to address that. Nobody bothered. One organization, the ACLU, exists to correct civil liberty deprivations. It failed. Instead it writes press releases about taking part in a civil action where competent counsel is already on board. Meanwhle, nobody seems to give a shit about Brown. Not even you. You are more concerned with Trump.

Like I said.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I have read several other articles, none note the day the ACLU became involved. Given that, their culpability is sheer speculation. In fact I see no reference to him being represented during his incarceration. It could be a case of the overworked public defender system, he may or may not have had representation until his hearing. I see no information on that part. Given that, why blame the ACLU?

 

[toastedbread]

No, you forgot to demonstrate any anger on my part. Your original comment was clearly directed at Marvin, who, unlike you, was placing his disdain with the people who were the source of the actual injustice. You, on the other hand, were placing your disdain with groups you find personally distasteful, but who nonetheless are not the source of the injustice. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that it is you, and not Marvin, who is concerned with emotional angry outbursts, rather than fixing, you know, injustice.

But you can't even stay on topic to that extent. Because I replied, I'm somehow now the target of your...let's politely call it "confusion"...even though I've demonstrated no anger whatsoever toward anyone.

I agree with you that the fault belongs with those who needlessly imprisoned this fellow. I don't hold the ACLU responsible for that.

I also agree with Co. that the ACLU has lost its way. And I'm not referring to this specific instance.

In addition, I've contacted all of the various free legal immigration groups in my area, and none of them are capable of handling an urgent situation. For starters, you can't even speak to a human !!

 

[twenty02]

The ACLU brags about having an immigration project. They do no good by getting on the bandwagon after the victim suffered an extended wrongful incarceration. They need to get out of the activist business and figure out how to help individual victims who are subject to process mistakes or deliberate abuse. Maybe those things don’t attract news coverage, but coverage shouldn’t be their objective. The individual had a lawyer because he was already involved with the criminal justice system.

Getting mad at people or institutions might be satisfying for some people, but that doesn’t help people like Mr Brown. The legal profession let him down. I’m looking at the ACLU on this one.

My guess is he had a public defender.... good luck with that. Likely couldn't even get the guy to return his phone call.

Why can't you stay focused on the injustice of the CJ system via our elected govts?

Getting mad at institutions doesn't do much
...but a civil action against the county surely might.

No idea what role the ACLU is playing....but publicizing things like this nationally is also part of altering public policy.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I agree with you that the fault belongs with those who needlessly imprisoned this fellow. I don't hold the ACLU responsible for that.

I also agree with Co. that the ACLU has lost its way. And I'm not referring to this specific instance.

In addition, I've contacted all of the various free legal immigration groups in my area, and none of them are capable of handling an urgent situation. For starters, you can't even speak to a human !!

My guess is it is the nature of free, they depend on volunteers. There never are enough volunteers, and many drop out just when they start getting useful.

As to the ACLU, I have not done a deep dive into every case they accept or refuse and what their results are. In theory, I like an organization dedicated to protecting civil rights. But without data, not anecdotal but bulk data, I have no idea if this specific guardian of civil liberties is doing well. In the Miami Herald article on this story, the ACLU claims to have repeatedly warned the sheriff's office that they are in violation of the law in the length of time they are placing people in ICE holds. Maybe they could have done more, I do not know.

 

[toastedbread]

My guess is it is the nature of free, they depend on volunteers. There never are enough volunteers, and many drop out just when they start getting useful.

As to the ACLU, I have not done a deep dive into every case they accept or refuse and what their results are. In theory, I like an organization dedicated to protecting civil rights. But without data, not anecdotal but bulk data, I have no idea if this specific guardian of civil liberties is doing well. In the Miami Herald article on this story, the ACLU claims to have repeatedly warned the sheriff's office that they are in violation of the law in the length of time they are placing people in ICE holds. Maybe they could have done more, I do not know.

I don't know what kind of bulk data you would look for. I believe they've forgotten the American part of civil liberties. While they are busy suing on behalf of alleged asylees in Mexico, thousands of Americans face major immigration issues.

Specifically, I can tell you wrt the travel ban, they were all about publciity and not the end result. In fact, had they stopped fighting after the 2nd ban, those effected would be in a much improved situation. They wanted publicity and an overwhelming victory. Those at risk be damned. Notably, they are not party to any of the ongoing litigation regarding the waivers. They've completely dropped the issue. I could go more in depth, but it's disgusting. I'm also aware that the current leader of the ACLU has put up repeated politically tinged press releases. I liked it when the ACLU stood up on behalf of the the KKK without thinking twice about it.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't know what kind of bulk data you would look for. I believe they've forgotten the American part of civil liberties. While they are busy suing on behalf of alleged asylees in Mexico, thousands of Americans face major immigration issues.

Specifically, I can tell you wrt the travel ban, they were all about publciity and not the end result. In fact, had they stopped fighting after the 2nd ban, those effected would be in a much improved situation. They wanted publicity and an overwhelming victory. Those at risk be damned. Notably, they are not party to any of the ongoing litigation regarding the waivers. They've completely dropped the issue. I could go more in depth, but it's disgusting. I'm also aware that the current leader of the ACLU has put up repeated politically tinged press releases. I liked it when the ACLU stood up on behalf of the the KKK without thinking twice about it.

I am not as familiar with the ban as you, but when I look at the Supreme Court case from June upholding the ban, I see the ACLU listed as one of the parties in the case. The ACLU appears to still be involved in a lawsuit on the issue.

 

[toastedbread]

I am not as familiar with the ban as you, but when I look at the Supreme Court case from June upholding the ban, I see the ACLU listed as one of the parties in the case. The ACLU appears to still be involved in a lawsuit on the issue.

I was not familiar with that specific case. Not a lawyer, but that appears to be just about the dumbest legal challenge in history. They appear to be arguing what was already settled by SCOTUS. That the ban is unlawful and waivers are not being approved due to religious discrimination. What a complete waste of resources. The two main lawsuits I'm aware of are focused on the fact that the waiver process is not being conducted in good faith. That's what the ACLU should be focused on. Not litigation that "feels good".

I've filed a writ for our own case, which is now nearing its conclusion. I did reach out to the ACLU, but did not get a response. They have the time and resources to file a writ on behalf of a diversity applicant, but not the spouse of an American citizen.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Given that, why blame the ACLU?

No idea what role the ACLU is playing....but publicizing things like this nationally is also part of altering public policy.

Individuals through mistake, negligence, ignorance, or prejudice have been deprived of civil liberties for decades and decades. The existence of the ACLU is a response to this situation. Back in the day, the ACLU was on the front lines of addressing civil liberty deprivations. The ACLU has gotten rich and fat. It is now a left wing lobbying organization. It even has a lobbying presence in Washington D.C.

I blame the ACLU because it brags about having an immigration project. Somebody noted in this thread that the ACLU dealt with this particular sheriff previously about ICE holds. County jail inmates and the reason for incarceration is public information with some exceptions not applicable to Brown. It's a simple matter for those involved with the ACLU "immigration project" to determine ICE holds in this jail and then look in to those. Brown fell through the cracks the ACLU is intended to fill. While I haven't done the research, my suspicion is that the ACLU is full of lawyers and others who like to be associated with its cause, and who like to helicopter in and participate in Brown's civil action to generate publicity, but don't want to dirty their hands or silk suits with the nitty gritty of the front line legal work.

And I don't buy the "good luck with that" snark somebody posted about the public defender system. The lawyers I know who are public defenders are smart, capable, and competent. They are over worked, but so what? So are prosecutors, immigration lawyers, and immigration judges. It is inexcusable for Brown to have been subject to improper incarceration for as long as he was. I understand Brown has some responsibility here. And he may not be blameless. But that doesn't excuse the fact that this particular institution was on the immigration radar and Brown didn't get help.

For those who want to be pissed off at Trump I'd just say that civil liberty depravations have gone on for decades before Trump, and will continue for decades after Trump. Trump has nothing to do with this.

A note about the page Marv linked. The ACLU brags about being on the case about Muslim religious discrimination, yet it the ACLU states: "In addition to attorneys with ACRL and ACLU of Michigan, the plaintiffs in the case are represented by a team of attorneys from the law firm of Covington & Burling LLP and University of Michigan Law School professor Margo Schlanger." IN other words, the heavy lifting in this trial is done by lawyers who actually do research and try cases. What's the ACLU purpose in that case if not only publicity and fund raising? Same pattern as Brown. The ACLU used to be civil rights attorneys, now they are just protestors. UGH!

 

[toastedbread]

County jail inmates and the reason for incarceration is public information with some exceptions not applicable to Brown.

Are you certain that ICE holds are public information? I thought immigration information is typically not public.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Are you certain that ICE holds are public information? I thought immigration information is typically not public.

Not 100% sure. I'll give it a 75% degree of confidence.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

And I don't buy the "good luck with that" snark somebody posted about the public defender system. The lawyers I know who are public defenders are smart, capable, and competent. They are over worked, but so what? So are prosecutors, immigration lawyers, and immigration judges. It is inexcusable for Brown to have been subject to improper incarceration for as long as he was. I understand Brown has some responsibility here. And he may not be blameless. But that doesn't excuse the fact that this particular institution was on the immigration radar and Brown didn't get help.

I do not know if this is still in effect, but in 2008 the Florida Supreme Court allowed Miami Public Defenders to start turning down cases if taking on more cases hampered their ability to provide proper defense to existing clients.

This is an article from Louisiana that mentions that but adds about Miami, "At the time, public defenders in Miami were handling 400 felony cases each, and some often had up to 50 cases set for trial in a week." I am not a lawyer, but 50 cases in a week sounds like a lot. That author of also says, "I plead some of my clients to felony convictions on the day I meet them. If I don’t follow up to make sure clients are released when they should be, they can sit in jail for unnecessary weeks and months." And in comparison to the prosecutors he says, "Our office represents 85 percent of the people charged with crimes in Orleans Parish but has an annual budget about a third the size of the district attorney’s."

 

[CO. Hoosier]

At the time, public defenders in Miami were handling 400 felony cases each, and some often had up to 50 cases set for trial in a week." I am not a lawyer, but 50 cases in a week sounds like a lot.

While the numbers vary by jurisdiction, over-scheduling is common. That is why plea bargains are a vital part of the criminal justice system.

 

[twenty02]

Individuals through mistake, negligence, ignorance, or prejudice have been deprived of civil liberties for decades and decades. The existence of the ACLU is a response to this situation. Back in the day, the ACLU was on the front lines of addressing civil liberty deprivations. The ACLU has gotten rich and fat. It is now a left wing lobbying organization. It even has a lobbying presence in Washington D.C.

I blame the ACLU because it brags about having an immigration project. Somebody noted in this thread that the ACLU dealt with this particular sheriff previously about ICE holds. County jail inmates and the reason for incarceration is public information with some exceptions not applicable to Brown. It's a simple matter for those involved with the ACLU "immigration project" to determine ICE holds in this jail and then look in to those. Brown fell through the cracks the ACLU is intended to fill. While I haven't done the research, my suspicion is that the ACLU is full of lawyers and others who like to be associated with its cause, and who like to helicopter in and participate in Brown's civil action to generate publicity, but don't want to dirty their hands or silk suits with the nitty gritty of the front line legal work.

And I don't buy the "good luck with that" snark somebody posted about the public defender system. The lawyers I know who are public defenders are smart, capable, and competent. They are over worked, but so what? So are prosecutors, immigration lawyers, and immigration judges. It is inexcusable for Brown to have been subject to improper incarceration for as long as he was. I understand Brown has some responsibility here. And he may not be blameless. But that doesn't excuse the fact that this particular institution was on the immigration radar and Brown didn't get help.

For those who want to be pissed off at Trump I'd just say that civil liberty depravations have gone on for decades before Trump, and will continue for decades after Trump. Trump has nothing to do with this.

A note about the page Marv linked. The ACLU brags about being on the case about Muslim religious discrimination, yet it the ACLU states: "In addition to attorneys with ACRL and ACLU of Michigan, the plaintiffs in the case are represented by a team of attorneys from the law firm of Covington & Burling LLP and University of Michigan Law School professor Margo Schlanger." IN other words, the heavy lifting in this trial is done by lawyers who actually do research and try cases. What's the ACLU purpose in that case if not only publicity and fund raising? Same pattern as Brown. The ACLU used to be civil rights attorneys, now they are just protestors. UGH!

I posted this on another thread...but I recently finished a book by Bryan Stevenson, founder of the Equal Justice Institute.

He/they deal mainly with death penalty cases....but also focus upon cases of juveniles sentenced as adults. In addition to getting an innocent man off death row in the early 90s, he has won several cases in front of the SCOTUS....including Miller v Alabama - which banned mandatory death in prison sentences for crimes committed as a minor. I was shocked to read of cases of minors - in one case a 14 yr old - given life without parole sentences for non-homicide crimes.

One thing I was struck by is how little public defenders are provided....even in capital murder cases. In Alabama it was $1,000 for defending a capital murder trial. You can guess what kind of effort that results in. He described many clients that would have never been sentenced - or even convicted -had they had any competent counsel.

There is also zero funding in many states for any type of post-convicton representation, even for death penalty defendants. There used to be federal funding for this, but it was eliminated by Congress in 1994. The result is that many sentenced to death receive no legal support, particularly in the South.

Quite a fascinating read. Maybe this is the type of on the ground lawyering you'd more support.

Amazon product ASIN 081298496X

 

[Marvin the Martian]

While the numbers vary by jurisdiction, over-scheduling is common. That is why plea bargains are a vital part of the criminal justice system.

There are areas we do agree on, not many, but the blame lawyers get for lawsuits (like the McDonalds coffee) and the need for plea bargains are two. And here probably is another, we need to pass the First Step Act. Even Trump supports it (kudos to him on this issue) but it appears McConnell is refusing to allow it to be brought to a vote.

 

[twenty02]

Individuals through mistake, negligence, ignorance, or prejudice have been deprived of civil liberties for decades and decades. The existence of the ACLU is a response to this situation. Back in the day, the ACLU was on the front lines of addressing civil liberty deprivations. The ACLU has gotten rich and fat. It is now a left wing lobbying organization. It even has a lobbying presence in Washington D.C.

I blame the ACLU because it brags about having an immigration project. Somebody noted in this thread that the ACLU dealt with this particular sheriff previously about ICE holds. County jail inmates and the reason for incarceration is public information with some exceptions not applicable to Brown. It's a simple matter for those involved with the ACLU "immigration project" to determine ICE holds in this jail and then look in to those. Brown fell through the cracks the ACLU is intended to fill. While I haven't done the research, my suspicion is that the ACLU is full of lawyers and others who like to be associated with its cause, and who like to helicopter in and participate in Brown's civil action to generate publicity, but don't want to dirty their hands or silk suits with the nitty gritty of the front line legal work.

And I don't buy the "good luck with that" snark somebody posted about the public defender system. The lawyers I know who are public defenders are smart, capable, and competent. They are over worked, but so what? So are prosecutors, immigration lawyers, and immigration judges. It is inexcusable for Brown to have been subject to improper incarceration for as long as he was. I understand Brown has some responsibility here. And he may not be blameless. But that doesn't excuse the fact that this particular institution was on the immigration radar and Brown didn't get help.

For those who want to be pissed off at Trump I'd just say that civil liberty depravations have gone on for decades before Trump, and will continue for decades after Trump. Trump has nothing to do with this.

A note about the page Marv linked. The ACLU brags about being on the case about Muslim religious discrimination, yet it the ACLU states: "In addition to attorneys with ACRL and ACLU of Michigan, the plaintiffs in the case are represented by a team of attorneys from the law firm of Covington & Burling LLP and University of Michigan Law School professor Margo Schlanger." IN other words, the heavy lifting in this trial is done by lawyers who actually do research and try cases. What's the ACLU purpose in that case if not only publicity and fund raising? Same pattern as Brown. The ACLU used to be civil rights attorneys, now they are just protestors. UGH!

I also disagree that "Trump has nothing to do with this".... the ICE issue is a specific change in policy that is obvious in the numbers.

http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/511/

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I posted this on another thread...but I recently finished a book by Bryan Stevenson, founder of the Equal Justice Institute.

He/they deal mainly with death penalty cases....but also focus upon cases of juveniles sentenced as adults. In addition to getting an innocent man off death row in the early 90s, he has won several cases in front of the SCOTUS....including Miller v Alabama - which banned mandatory death in prison sentences for crimes committed as a minor. I was shocked to read of cases of minors - in one case a 14 yr old - given life without parole sentences for non-homicide crimes.

One thing I was struck by is how little public defenders are provided....even in capital murder cases. In Alabama it was $1,000 for defending a capital murder trial. You can guess what kind of effort that results in. He described many clients that would have never been sentenced - or even convicted -had they had any competent counsel.

There is also zero funding in many states for any type of post-convicton representation, even for death penalty defendants. There used to be federal funding for this, but it was eliminated by Congress in 1994. The result is that many sentenced to death receive no legal support, particularly in the South.

Quite a fascinating read. Maybe this is the type of on the ground lawyering you'd more support.

View embedded media

I know a few high dollar lawyers who take on DP cases for free. They do a lot of work in Texas. In Colorado, there are PD specialists who defend DP cases anywhere in the state. DP cases are usually pleaded out to life without parol. The last DP case I remember was the theater shooting case.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

There are areas we do agree on, not many, but the blame lawyers get for lawsuits (like the McDonalds coffee) and the need for plea bargains are two. And here probably is another, we need to pass the First Step Act. Even Trump supports it (kudos to him on this issue) but it appears McConnell is refusing to allow it to be brought to a vote.

Who do you blame for the McDonald's coffee case? The plaintiff's lawyer or McDonald's lawyers?

Plea bargains are necessary, vital, and usually serve justice. I don't blame anybody for that. It's usually preferable to a trial.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Who do you blame for the McDonald's coffee case? The plaintiff's lawyer or McDonald's lawyers?

Plea bargains are necessary, vital, and usually serve justice. I don't blame anybody for that. It's usually preferable to a trial.

I blame McDonalds for serving coffee that was too hot. No one should get that badly burned by a drink in a moving car.

 

[twenty02]

There are areas we do agree on, not many, but the blame lawyers get for lawsuits (like the McDonalds coffee) and the need for plea bargains are two. And here probably is another, we need to pass the First Step Act. Even Trump supports it (kudos to him on this issue) but it appears McConnell is refusing to allow it to be brought to a vote.

This issue is a prefect example of how dysfunctional Congress really is. A bill that passed with super-majority support in the House. Likely has super-majority support in the Senate....AND very public support from the WH. Yet they can't get it done. Pathetic.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This issue is a prefect example of how dysfunctional Congress really is. A bill that passed with super-majority support in the House. Likely has super-majority support in the Senate....AND very public support from the WH. Yet they can't get it done. Pathetic.

I really do not get why the leadership in both the House and Senate has so much power. The bodies should be more democratic. And at one time, they were.

 

[twenty02]

I really do not get why the leadership in both the House and Senate has so much power. The bodies should be more democratic. And at one time, they were.

There is hope in the House that they'll be some new rule changes next Congress to break some of the leadership stranglehold....Pelosi is not doing it willingly, but a she needs the votes so she's acquiesced.

No hope for the Senate....where McConnell remains the most powerful man in the country (legislatively).

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There is hope in the House that they'll be some new rule changes next Congress to break some of the leadership stranglehold....Pelosi is not doing it willingly, but a she needs the votes so she's acquiesced.

No hope for the Senate....where McConnell remains the most powerful man in the country (legislatively).

McConnell has been 10 times more effective than Reid ever was. It is amazing how good he is at getting his way. Due to the nature of Democrats being like cats needing herded, I don't know if a Democrat could rule the Senate like McConnell.

I hope reform happens in the House, and I've said many times, I hope the Democrats don't institute a Hastert Rule. I stand by that even though the Dems will have a solid majority. I suspect that if the Dems instituted one, the same people that have loved it the past 8 years will have a road to Damascus moment on the issue.

 

[wiede]

The ACLU brags about having an immigration project. They do no good by getting on the bandwagon after the victim suffered an extended wrongful incarceration. They need to get out of the activist business and figure out how to help individual victims who are subject to process mistakes or deliberate abuse. Maybe those things don’t attract news coverage, but coverage shouldn’t be their objective. The individual had a lawyer because he was already involved with the criminal justice system.

Getting mad at people or institutions might be satisfying for some people, but that doesn’t help people like Mr Brown. The legal profession let him down. I’m looking at the ACLU on this one.

I get what you’re saying. But outside of putting moles within ICE or the sheriff’s office, how exactly could they have become involved? There’s only so many folks at the ACLU, and it’s not like they have a great relationship with ICE or any police departments.

If that were my employee, I’d be calling A) a lawyer B) the ACLU & C) the free press. And I’d call them all right away- the more pressure on the police department and ICE, the better. Seems to me that someone on the outside that knew about the situation dropped the ball here. It’s not as if the guy had many options on the inside.

And, the ACLU is all about protecting individual freedoms- and not a political party’s agenda. They’ve become associated with left wing causes, like abortion. But that’s because restricting abortion is an attempt to restrict an established individual freedom. There’s nothing inconsistent in them being involved in that arena. Like them or hate them, I don’t think their core philosophy has changed.