My ongoing AOC Derangement Syndrome. Apparently her new thing is YIMBY - she's funding/supporting

[mcmurtry66]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

 

[Courtsensetwo]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they become the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides.

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

IMHO this sort of falls under eminent domain in that property is being mandated by the government in a way that it would otherwise not have happened and at the likely disapproval of others. (yes I know the technical difference)

As long as affected homeowners are compensated for legitimate loss in property value...I think it is worth considering.

A buger and fish dip at Deck 84 sounds good right now.

 

[Jg48]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they become the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

For God's sake man, you're a lawyer, give me the bullet points.

 

[mcmurtry66]

For God's sake man, you're a lawyer, give me the bullet points.

AOC wants poor people to be your neighbor

 

[mcmurtry66]

IMHO this sort of falls under eminent domain in that property is being mandated by the government in a way that it would otherwise not have happened and at the likely disapproval of others. (yes I know the technical difference)

As long as affected homeowners are compensated for legitimate loss in property value...I think it is worth considering.

A buger and fish dip at Deck 84 sounds good right now.

That's the rub. Diminution in value was my first thought too, but "apparently" studies don't support a reduction in value

 

[Jg48]

AOC wants poor people to be your neighbor

In my neighborhood, I am the poor people neighbor. I don't even have a pool.

 

[mcmurtry66]

In my neighborhood, I am the poor people neighbor. I don't even have a pool.

Better to have the worst house in a great hood than the best house in a shitty hood

 

[dbmhoosier]

Biden is apparently following the AOC playbook...when you're approval ratings have fallen off a cliff keep moving further left. These people are clueless.

Biden planning executive orders on police reform: report

President Joe Biden is reportedly planning to push his police reform agenda via an executive order as early as this month.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Courtsensetwo]

That's the rub. Diminution in value was my first thought too, but "apparently" studies don't support a reduction in value

yeah...apparently.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

I like the idea but my question is: what happens to the neighborhood the people who want a better life leave? Does this type of thing lead that neighborhood to be better or worse? If worse, what to do about that?

One of the narratives I’ve heard explaining why Englewood and Austin areas in Chicago, for example, are as bad as they are is because those people who would stand up to the gangs have already left. (I have no idea if this is true, evidence i

Do policies like this further encourage that behavior (on an individual level, I support anyone trying to make a better life. But policy decisions like this might have unintended consequences that make bad neighborhoods even worse).

Unfortunately required disclaimer: I bring up this issue because it’s interesting and relevant to a policy discussion of (1) what works and (2) what are we trying to do/value. I’m not weighing in on the morality of any position or narrative.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I like the idea but my question is: what happens to the neighborhood the people who want a better life leave? Does this type of thing lead that neighborhood to be better or worse? If worse, what to do about that?

One of the narratives I’ve heard explaining why Englewood and Austin areas in Chicago, for example, are as bad as they are is because those people who would stand up to the gangs have already left. (I have no idea if this is true, evidence i

Do policies like this further encourage that behavior (on an individual level, I support anyone trying to make a better life. But policy decisions like this might have unintended consequences that make bad neighborhoods even worse).

Unfortunately required disclaimer: I bring up this issue because it’s interesting and relevant to a policy discussion of (1) what works and (2) what are we trying to do/value. I’m not weighing in on the morality of any position or narrative.

Good question and I don't know. Some of the neighborhoods may be unsalvageable. In my own neck of the woods migration continues west away from the bad hoods at a pace that far exceeds gentrification of abandoned hoods. Once new subdivisions and attendant infrastructure and better schools and retail pops up in new areas it makes going back hard

 

[i'vegotwinners]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

i agree that AOC could better pick her battles.

and agree on the zoning thing.

and agree that high min wage hurts many very small business owners, whom i also classify many of as working class.

that said, such stances without other corresponding pushes, makes for a catch 22 that is devastating for cities and the country.

real estate, "of which they ain't making any more of", prices have jumped the shark, greatly aided by investors, the fed, the gentrification industrial complex, hedge funds, etc.

the homeless epidemic didn't just happen, nor did the pinch the working class with places to crash are experiencing.

we need to rethink the whole way we treat real estate if we aren't going to mandate a much higher min wage.

take runaway real estate/housing and healthcare costs out of the equation, and someone making $10 an hr could get by well enough.

the healthcare side is an easy fix, (other than politically), with medicare for all.

as for real estate, we need to get a lot of the investors, hedge funds, etc, out of the equation.

best start at doing that is drastic rent control everywhere, and totally redoing how we tax rental property and flippers, both property tax wise and income tax wise, and multiple property ownership property tax wise, and stop the investor class and well to do from bidding up and driving up real estate prices.

if you don't like that approach, fine.

but then you're stuck with mandating much higher min wages and zoning mandates, to keep the homeless thing and crime from climbing more and more out of control with each passing day, and keep much of the the working class from housing poverty.

in a free market capitalistic model, what's affordable housing costs for low wage workers, is not what best maximizes real estate values, even if it means many housing and rental units go unoccupied.

in a 1,000 unit apt complex, better for the owners to rent 60% of the units at $2000 per, than all of the units at $1,000 mo per, which is still more than a $10 hr worker can afford.

SDUs, (single dwelling units), follow the same "market" dynamics as MDUs, (multiple dwelling units).

and subsidies, are just subsiding the market and investors, at Joe Taxpayer's expense.

there literally is no "market" fix to the problem period.

that leaves redoing how we tax real estate for landlords and anyone with multiple homes/condos, serious rent controls, which will also drive down real estate prices, or zoning reform and subsidies, which still won't solve the catch 22 issue far as well as serious rent controls and real estate tax reform on income property and multiple home ownership.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

I’m all for housing diversity. i live a few blocks from an income-qualified housing complex and it is no big deal. But two things. First I live in a redevelopment area and income-qualified housing was always part of the mix as well as very expensive homes and everything in between. Second, management of the complex is on the ball. I think the key to not having problems is strong firm management.

The federal government role should be limited to providing unrestricted block grants and nothing else. The trend is that the feds can control all kinds of local decisions if the feds provide money. We need to stop that lest we have the AOC’s of the world dictate what goes into the vending machines in these buildings or what kind of medicine the occupants must take.

Retrofitting low income housing into established neighborhoods has more problems because of the fear of unknowns. Once again, firm property management can fix many problems. And people don’t have vested rights to a particular land use anyway.

I don’t know what it is about poverty and trash, but they seem to go together. A few days I walked around a low income neighborhood while I was having new tires mounted and the amount of trash along the curbs and gutters was astounding. If a public service group wanted something ro do, picking up that trash would be a place to start. It’s kind of like the broken window theory, i think a trashy environment leads to other trashy behavior.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I’m all for housing diversity. i live a few blocks from an income-qualified housing complex and it is no big deal. But two things. First I live in a redevelopment area and income-qualified housing was always part of the mix as well as very expensive homes and everything in between. Second, management of the complex is on the ball. I think the key to not having problems is strong firm management.

The federal government role should be limited to providing unrestricted block grants and nothing else. The trend is that the feds can control all kinds of local decisions if the feds provide money. We need to stop that lest we have the AOC’s of the world dictate what goes into the vending machines in these buildings or what kind of medicine the occupants must take.

Retrofitting low income housing into established neighborhoods has more problems because of the fear of unknowns. Once again, firm property management can fix many problems. And people don’t have vested rights to a particular land use anyway.

I don’t know what it is about poverty and trash, but they seem to go together. A few days I walked around a low income neighborhood while I was having new tires mounted and the amount of trash along the curbs and gutters was astounding. If a public service group wanted something ro do, picking up that trash would be a place to start. It’s kind of like the broken window theory, i think a trashy environment leads to other trashy behavior.

Trashin’ the Hood; A Thought Piece on Litter in Urban Space

Growing up in North Philly you quickly realize that there’s a lot of trash around. No doubt Philly has a lot of refuse. Philly has a lot of people and is one of the oldest cities in the US. I…

thecityrooftop.com

 

[Cortez88]

Good question and I don't know. Some of the neighborhoods may be unsalvageable. In my own neck of the woods migration continues west away from the bad hoods at a pace that far exceeds gentrification of abandoned hoods. Once new subdivisions and attendant infrastructure and better schools and retail pops up in new areas it makes going back hard

I don’t know if there’s a better way, but when you attach the school district to where you live, the places with nice houses get the good schools. I know as parents it definitely informed our decision on where to live.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That's the rub. Diminution in value was my first thought too, but "apparently" studies don't support a reduction in value

All respect...bull shit. They want to do this in the area where I live and some of it has already started to happen. I have had 2 robberies in the past 4 to 6 weeks where they had drones out hunting people down about a 1/2 mile up the road from my neighborhood.

Mixing low income individuals in with middle and upper class will lead to more crime. Most poor people are fine and upstanding citizens, but there is a significant enough percentage that will increase crime and they are in a target rich environment. You can look at an area like Lawrence in Indianapolis that was a pretty well to do area that had this happen and it killed the area. The Georgetown area of Ft. Wayne. The government will move the poor in, the people who were living there before will get tired of the increase in crime and will move out. Property will not be taken care of. More low income moves in and a transfer will eventually happen. Well to do people expect their alread to look nice.

I am a dick and yada yada...but I don't want any more low income, high density apartments around my area than there already are. There has been a direct correlation between those being erected and an increase in petty thefts, break ins, etc. in the area.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't know how to do it, but segregation is bad. Poor, wealthy, middle people should be friends. They should have kids that hang out, go to the same schools, etc. But I don't have a way of getting there. Maybe CO's block grants will be enough. Maybe in areas like this should be if someone in your home is convicted of x, y, or z crimes you must move. I don't know, but I think there is something out there that will work. The public good is too high not to look for solutions.

 

[mcmurtry66]

All respect...bull shit. They want to do this in the area where I live and some of it has already started to happen. I have had 2 robberies in the past 4 to 6 weeks where they had drones out hunting people down about a 1/2 mile up the road from my neighborhood.

Mixing low income individuals in with middle and upper class will lead to more crime. Most poor people are fine and upstanding citizens, but there is a significant enough percentage that will increase crime and they are in a target rich environment. You can look at an area like Lawrence in Indianapolis that was a pretty well to do area that had this happen and it killed the area. The Georgetown area of Ft. Wayne. The government will move the poor in, the people who were living there before will get tired of the increase in crime and will move out. Property will not be taken care of. More low income moves in and a transfer will eventually happen. Well to do people expect their alread to look nice.

I am a dick and yada yada...but I don't want any more low income, high density apartments around my area than there already are. There has been a direct correlation between those being erected and an increase in petty thefts, break ins, etc. in the area.

I don't know any of those areas but you obviously do and know better about your own hood. The research indicates otherwise, but we all know the shortcomings and motivation biases of same so again who knows. I will say that the theoretical idea of it isn't to be high density. High density has always been the problem, coupled with ownership. It's why the old high rises have systematically been replaced by low rise public housing with better success

 

[hoosboot]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

Super interesting thread starter, mcm. What happened? (I kid, I kid!)

My understanding is that this is a really big topic in urban planning circles. Would be nice if it could be removed from the world of "winners" and "losers", but I suspect that it will eventually boil down to that. Monikers like NIMBYs seem sort of like Trumpsters or Wokesters and the like...names thrown around as pejoratives that are not particularly helpful in exploring the issue. (not faulting you for including it as I don't see you throwing it around that way.)

 

[mcmurtry66]

Super interesting thread starter, mcm. What happened? (I kid, I kid!)

My understanding is that this is a really big topic in urban planning circles. Would be nice if it could be removed from the world of "winners" and "losers", but I suspect that it will eventually boil down to that. Monikers like NIMBYs seem sort of like Trumpsters or Wokesters and the like...names thrown around as pejoratives that are not particularly helpful in exploring the issue. (not faulting you for including it as I don't see you throwing it around that way.)

A blind squirrel.... NIMBY goes back to EPA landfills/hazardous waste etc from the early 80s

 

[CO. Hoosier]

All respect...bull shit. They want to do this in the area where I live and some of it has already started to happen. I have had 2 robberies in the past 4 to 6 weeks where they had drones out hunting people down about a 1/2 mile up the road from my neighborhood.

Mixing low income individuals in with middle and upper class will lead to more crime. Most poor people are fine and upstanding citizens, but there is a significant enough percentage that will increase crime and they are in a target rich environment. You can look at an area like Lawrence in Indianapolis that was a pretty well to do area that had this happen and it killed the area. The Georgetown area of Ft. Wayne. The government will move the poor in, the people who were living there before will get tired of the increase in crime and will move out. Property will not be taken care of. More low income moves in and a transfer will eventually happen. Well to do people expect their alread to look nice.

I am a dick and yada yada...but I don't want any more low income, high density apartments around my area than there already are. There has been a direct correlation between those being erected and an increase in petty thefts, break ins, etc. in the area.

I tend to think well managed income-qualified housing will mitigate some of the problems you describe. I think highly concentrated family units with social issues will exacerbate the social problems. Neighborhoods with highly diverse housing situations I think will lessen the frequency of such things as gang activity and street corner drug deals.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I tend to think well managed income-qualified housing will mitigate some of the problems you describe. I think highly concentrated family units with social issues will exacerbate the social problems. Neighborhoods with highly diverse housing situations I think will lessen the frequency of such things as gang activity and street corner drug deals.

I think it can work too. I've seen it to a lesser degree here work

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

That's the rub. Diminution in value was my first thought too, but "apparently" studies don't support a reduction in value

Can you link the studies for us?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Can you link the studies for us?

Fing hell you dick. Yeah give me a bit here. FWIW our neighborhood has apartments from $800 a month to homes for 5 mil. All the same walking neighborhood. All the same school

 

[mcmurtry66]

Can you link the studies for us?

Student Corner: Does affordable housing negatively impact nearby property values? | Community and Economic Development - Blog by UNC School of Government

ced.sog.unc.edu

https://furmancenter.org/files/media/Dont_Put_It_Here.pdf

Does Affordable Housing Impact Surrounding Neighborhoods? | Metonic Real Estate Solutions

Oftentimes, a large concern of homeowners living near an affordable housing property is the impact the development will have on their property value and on the neighborhood. Several studies have been done to see what, if any, effects affordable housing has on property value, crime rate, and...

metonic.net

There are countless others. I have no idea if they are accurate

 

[Hank Reardon]

Student Corner: Does affordable housing negatively impact nearby property values? | Community and Economic Development - Blog by UNC School of Government

ced.sog.unc.edu

https://furmancenter.org/files/media/Dont_Put_It_Here.pdf

Does Affordable Housing Impact Surrounding Neighborhoods? | Metonic Real Estate Solutions

Oftentimes, a large concern of homeowners living near an affordable housing property is the impact the development will have on their property value and on the neighborhood. Several studies have been done to see what, if any, effects affordable housing has on property value, crime rate, and...

metonic.net

There are countless others. I have no idea if they are accurate

To be fair, these aren't studies, they are simply articles that talk about studies. You claimed that "studies have shown" and when asked to provide examples you just linked to a couple of articles which also say, "studies have shown."

Where are the actual studies which show the details and methodology? I'd suggest that one could conduct a study which would show whatever you want it to show. If you wanted to do a study showing that low income housing has no effect (or even a positive effect) on surrounding property, I'm sure you could find a way to do that. Or, one could probably study the exact same area and find the reverse, if that was the goal.

 

[mcmurtry66]

To be fair, these aren't studies, they are simply articles that talk about studies. You claimed that "studies have shown" and when asked to provide examples you just linked to a couple of articles which also say, "studies have shown."

Where are the actual studies which show the details and methodology? I'd suggest that one could conduct a study which would show whatever you want it to show. If you wanted to do a study showing that low income housing has no effect (or even a positive effect) on surrounding property, I'm sure you could find a way to do that. Or, one could probably study the exact same area and find the reverse, if that was the goal.

Yeah I'm not taking the time to vet the studies. I will say that it's been a million years but my own recollection of studies/research, regardless of how clouded it's become from the detriment of time passing as well as marinating in alcohol, is congruent with same.

A review of literature by the Urban Studies Program at San Francisco State University shows that 13/14 studies that examined the impact of proximity to affordable housing on property values have found no significant negative effect.

 

[Hank Reardon]

Yeah I'm not taking the time to vet the studies.

A review of literature by the Urban Studies Program at San Francisco State University shows that 13/14 studies that examined the impact of proximity to affordable housing on property values have found no significant negative effect.

What would you imagine that the Urban Studies Program at SF State University would find? Generally speaking, one finds what one is looking for. Without the details and methodology of a study, it's impossible to judge its value.

 

[mcmurtry66]

What would you imagine that the Urban Studies Program at SF State University would find? Generally speaking, one finds what one is looking for. Without the details and methodology of a study, it's impossible to judge its value.

I understand, and for sure there's bias. I went to grad school for it and again I do believe that these studies compare with what I remember. And I was in Ohio not San Fran. I think the key is the degree of "integration" as well as much of what COH touched on re management etc. But of course your broader point is well-taken

 

[twenty02]

All respect...bull shit. They want to do this in the area where I live and some of it has already started to happen. I have had 2 robberies in the past 4 to 6 weeks where they had drones out hunting people down about a 1/2 mile up the road from my neighborhood.

Mixing low income individuals in with middle and upper class will lead to more crime. Most poor people are fine and upstanding citizens, but there is a significant enough percentage that will increase crime and they are in a target rich environment. You can look at an area like Lawrence in Indianapolis that was a pretty well to do area that had this happen and it killed the area. The Georgetown area of Ft. Wayne. The government will move the poor in, the people who were living there before will get tired of the increase in crime and will move out. Property will not be taken care of. More low income moves in and a transfer will eventually happen. Well to do people expect their alread to look nice.

I am a dick and yada yada...but I don't want any more low income, high density apartments around my area than there already are. There has been a direct correlation between those being erected and an increase in petty thefts, break ins, etc. in the area.

I haven't seen many low- income only developments in a long while in your area (or hardly anywhere around Indy/ burbs, other than maybe 38th st/Meadows) Most developments have a certain % of units allocated to low- income.... with the remainder being market rate units.

 

[bub-rub]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

i like the idea. Keeping our lowest paid workers away from higher job growth areas is silly and only makes lives more unstable but I say this as a person w/o kids who isn’t necessarily needing a house to be a nest egg. Also, kind of kills the incentive part of the American dream if an application process and not money determine who gets a lease.
I’d rather see job training subsidies than the housing variety. Let the worker pay full rent with that killer new job. But I dream big.

 

[IUclover]

What would you imagine that the Urban Studies Program at SF State University would find? Generally speaking, one finds what one is looking for. Without the details and methodology of a study, it's impossible to judge its value.

Have you attempted to search for the study? If so, send a link.

 

[twenty02]

I think there needs to be some delineation here between wealthy "neighborhoods".... and wealthier towns/ cities.

Carmel, IN (for an example) may approve an apartment development that will include a certain number of low/ moderate income units combined with a majority of market rate units. But it's only going to be in an area that is already zoned for multi-family housing.... not like it's going to pop up on a corner in West Carmel in- between a bunch of 7 figure subdivisions.

I had some discussion with the Westfield mayor years ago (10+) about these concerns from neighbors... which typically were overblown once the details of these projects were laid out. I have no idea what AOC and others are pushing. Everything in the details.

 

[twenty02]

i like the idea. Keeping our lowest paid workers away from higher job growth areas is silly and only makes lives more unstable but I say this as a person w/o kids who isn’t necessarily needing a house to be a nest egg. Also, kind of kills the incentive part of the American dream if an application process and not money determine who gets a lease.
I’d rather see job training subsidies than the housing variety. Let the worker pay full rent with that killer new job. But I dream big.

Well the issue is we "need" (want) a lot of low cost service workers in all of these areas to quickly give @mcmurtry66 his SBX every day, etc...

 

[ribbont]

progressive candidates who support rewriting zoning laws to allow for lower income housing, multifamily apartments etc. in wealthier neighborhoods. From an urban planning/public policy perspective research shows that funding for affordable housing, vouchers, and credits often create and/or perpetuate pockets of poverty in high crime areas. By building affordable housing in "good" neighborhoods, and bumping up the value of credits/vouchers you give people an opportunity to disburse, get away from crime, and break up high crime areas. The natural question that follows is won't they just bring the crime with them. The research on that is a little muddy, but it certainly isn't clear that they do bring crime. I would say the research trends closer to people not bringing crime with them.

So I cannot stand AOC but I think she is right on this front. The question that follows is indeed YESimby or NOimby? If you live in a nice middle/upper class neighborhood how would you feel to see multifamily units being built at the park at the end of your block? And again they aren't going to be high rise projects, that model has long been established to not work, but they would certainly be 4/6/8 unit flats/etc.

Sort of unrelated but my favorite part of So Fla to go out is Delray at Atlantic. Delray has great beaches/restaurants, beautiful neighborhoods, perfect spot to me in So Fla. Years ago they became the mecca for druggies and drunks to go to rehab. It was a real boon for the addiction community. Unfortunately/Fortunately many of these folks realized that Delray is a hell of a lot better place to live than most other places in the country so when they get "released" back into the wild they tend to stay. Many relapse. So it's become this gorgeous, idyllic community with the walking dead wandering around storefronts, passed out on sidewalks. For years it's become the ultimate YIMBY/NIMBY fight. Historically rehab centers, methadone clinics, etc. were in poorer neighborhoods or heavily urban areas. Mixing it in with wealthier areas has been an interesting thing to observe.

I didn't mean to imply that druggies and poor people are related; I rather intended to state that the idea of AOC, and in Delray, is to integrate communities. So Fla is an exceptionally interesting place. There's wealth that only a few parts of the country can match. But it's set up like a snow globe. You can go from abject poverty to 75 million dollar homes owned by Sheiks in less than half a mile. Saint Louis isn't that way at all. Wealth is heavily segregated. I suspect that's the case in most areas.

Anyway, hungover so a bit of a disjointed post, but looking to the future I do believe that the far left really is now the Democratic party. I think it will become more and more progressive. And at least anecdotally I believe that comports with the younger generations. Society may be changing in the decades to come toward greater integration. We've heard stay-at-home Pete mention it often with infrastructure and highways and racial divides. There's a shortage of housing and, in particular affordable housing, maybe it'll be coming to your hood....

AOC Is a YIMBY Now

And she wants to flood local, state, and federal campaigns with pro-housing candidates.

www.curbed.com

How about just enforce laws and be tough on crime? And at the same time, have federal capital lending programs in low income areas to create new business? And at the same time, allow for school voucher and charter schools to improve education in low income areas? And at the same time, reward family unity with, IDK, a tax credit based on marriage longevity (spitballing here)? And at the same time, replace CRT with PFR (personal financial responsibility)?

Because YIMBY will become MOOMBY (moving out of my back yard) as affluent people will leave. Her solution is a band aid for the real problems.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well the issue is we "need" (want) a lot of low cost service workers in all of these areas to quickly give @mcmurtry66 his SBX every day, etc...

If I go up there one more time and see a closed sign due to lack of workers I will officially declare the United States a third world country. I mean at that point we're living like animals

 

[TomEric4756]

I think AOC’s position goes back to the 2016 Obama administration proposed Federal Zoning Regulations.

Communities, being found to be systematically racist (e.g. Westchester County NY), were (to be) required to limit the growth of ((economically racist) single family zoning, and promote (principally) multiple family zoning.

(Or lose all their Federal Block Grant money, and endure unending lawsuits seeking to redress their racist policies).
(Similar strategies were pursued with police department policies in major cities ... to combat racist policing … lots of cities are now under consent decrees)

My personal opinion is, that in part, these policies also support “gentrification” of city centers for ”elites”, by moving much of the low income tenents out of city centers.

The lifestyles of those who get to move to the new housing low income housing ‘in the ‘burbs’ get stressed by the increased commuting time (from minutes to perhaps hours) and commuting costs associated with the new digs.

Just Google “obama administration zoning”

 

[bub-rub]

I think AOC’s position goes back to the 2016 Obama administration proposed Federal Zoning Regulations.

Communities, being found to be systematically racist (e.g. Westchester County NY), were (to be) required to limit the growth of ((economically racist) single family zoning, and promote (principally) multiple family zoning.

(Or lose all their Federal Block Grant money, and endure unending lawsuits seeking to redress their racist policies).
(Similar strategies were pursued with police department policies in major cities ... to combat racist policing … lots of cities are now under consent decrees)

My personal opinion is, that in part, these policies also support “gentrification” of city centers for ”elites”, by moving much of the low income tenents out of city centers.

The lifestyles of those who get to move to the new housing low income housing ‘in the ‘burbs’ get stressed by the increased commuting time (from minutes to perhaps hours) and commuting costs associated with the new digs.

Just Google “obama administration zoning”

Im not sure about that read on it. Trump tried desperately to twist it into a culture war battlefront. Lol. I understood It as an effort to actually start enforcing a part of the Fair Housing Act. HUD has been letting non-compliant jurisdictions continue to get federal grants for 50+ years. Again, not a fan of housing subsidies but am a bigger fan of laws being enforced/ given a chance to work.

curious about the commuting time bit. Everything I read suggestions one of the bigger hurdles is getting to a job since rust belt cities tend to have crappy public transit. Taking a bus from the city to a suburb to work a retail job sounds like a long, shitty day to me.

 

[TomEric4756]

Looks like the Fair Housing Act does get some press
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/arlington/article257309997.html

The proposed rule text is
https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/EN...reserving Housing and Neighborhood Choice.pdf

It was withdrawn by Dr Ben Carson.
https://www.hud.gov/press/press_releases_media_advisories/hud_no_20_109

One change
§ 91.225 Certifications.
(a)* * *
(1) Affirmatively furthering fair housing. Each jurisdiction is required to submit a certification that it will affirmatively further fair housing. This includes certification that the grantee will affirmatively further fair housing, consistent with §§ 5.150 and 5.151 of this title.

What happens when some activist group disagrees with the certification and wants injunctive relief.
What happens when the regulator disagrees with the certification …

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

All respect...bull shit. They want to do this in the area where I live and some of it has already started to happen. I have had 2 robberies in the past 4 to 6 weeks where they had drones out hunting people down about a 1/2 mile up the road from my neighborhood.

Mixing low income individuals in with middle and upper class will lead to more crime. Most poor people are fine and upstanding citizens, but there is a significant enough percentage that will increase crime and they are in a target rich environment. You can look at an area like Lawrence in Indianapolis that was a pretty well to do area that had this happen and it killed the area. The Georgetown area of Ft. Wayne. The government will move the poor in, the people who were living there before will get tired of the increase in crime and will move out. Property will not be taken care of. More low income moves in and a transfer will eventually happen. Well to do people expect their alread to look nice.

I am a dick and yada yada...but I don't want any more low income, high density apartments around my area than there already are. There has been a direct correlation between those being erected and an increase in petty thefts, break ins, etc. in the area.

I didn't have pegged as an "elitist".