Joe Biden is the WOAT
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
- Start date
Fair enough. It is just interesting that position being taken on one hand and then people getting so upset about some of Trump's current supporters' antipathy towards helping Ukraine. I am not sure of Wake's thoughts on that (and I am too lazy to go look) so I won't throw him in that same boat, but the want to stop the spread of communism because of, well mostly Russia (USSR) is what got us pulled into Vietnam to start with. Furthermore, I do know that Wake is antagonistic towards Trump when he was arguably the only President in recent history not to start any new conflicts on his watch.
To the point that if Bush is near traitorous for dragging us into a conflict that helped to ruin our reputation and economy, then basically almost every President since WW2 is guilty of the same. People don't like to think of us this way but we are an empire. I think we are one of, if not the, most benevolent empires in history but to be the top dog in that game you have to throw your weight around.
We set ourselves up as the world police and that job has all the same pitfalls of our own police force. Everybody that is not a bad actor is happy you are there to keep things on the up and up. However, they always have a critique for what keeping the peace looks like when they think you are being too rough or if you made a rash decision in the moment. The police should know better.
I don't know, just rambling at this point but it is odd to me that people saying Bush bad for Iraq will turn around in the same instance and say MAGA bad for not wanting to get involved in Ukraine. "Well differences...." Maybe. There are some you can argue on certain points. "No US troops on ground." Yep, that was the case when we were helping the Taliban....er Mujahideen fight Russia before we had to turn around and fight them ourselves. And Vietnam was a French fight before it was our fight and it went from advisors to hundreds of thousands of participants, many draftees.
Should Bush have known better? Maybe, but to single him out as the only person running this country to be subject to that hubris is pretty shortsighted. Not only that, he is boilerplate for the traditional parties in this country for what foreign policy is supposed to look like and any deviation from that (like with MAGA or the far left) has been derided by the establishment and its backers forever.
GWB had something like a 24% approval rating towards the end of his 2nd term. Those are numbers on par with Nixon when resigning office. Unpopular foreign wars and an economic disaster not a good combo.
I’ve
I’ve debated every policy to the point of absurdity and boredom. If you cant follow along that’s on you
The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq (and the similarity with Ukraine) is that S Vietnam and Ukraine were invaded by an aggressor state. We helped the defending side out. Same for first Iraq war.
I think it’s always worth asking: should we engage in a military conflict and why. Ukraine, Israel, etc. Every time.
Vietnam was a civil war. I wouldn't call the North an aggressor state. They were all Vietnamese.
There are many instances of aggressor states or civil wars we don't get involved in. I don't believe we do it every time, but it may seem like it.
It's worth asking the question, but circumstances are never the same and I don't think we can do anything other than opine on general situations.
They might have been ethnically congruent, but there was no legitimate Vietnam state before the war. It was a post-colonial mess. The only reason to call it a "civil war" is to make the French feel better about the shit they did over there.
When 1 'ethnically congruent' peoples live in the same area, speak the same language, live next door to each other, and share the same history.... and then fight over how the country is to be governed, that looks like a civil war to anyone other than you.
There was a legitimate VIetnam state before it was conquered by the French.
History of Vietnam | People, Culture, Vietnam War, Maps, & Facts
History of Vietnam, a survey of notable events and people in the history of Vietnam. Located in the eastern portion of mainland Southeast Asia, Vietnam is bordered by China to the north, the South China Sea to the east and south, the Gulf of Thailand (Gulf of Siam) to the southwest, and Cambodia
www.britannica.com
I shall continue to await your apology.When 1 'ethnically congruent' peoples live in the same area, speak the same language, live next door to each other, and share the same history.... and then fight over how the country is to be governed, that looks like a civil war to anyone other than you.
There was a legitimate VIetnam state before it was conquered by the French.
History of Vietnam | People, Culture, Vietnam War, Maps, & Facts
History of Vietnam, a survey of notable events and people in the history of Vietnam. Located in the eastern portion of mainland Southeast Asia, Vietnam is bordered by China to the north, the South China Sea to the east and south, the Gulf of Thailand (Gulf of Siam) to the southwest, and Cambodia
I think before Iraq, while many sophisticates in other nations mocked the US as naive and stupid, many thought we were usually a helpful force in the world, an overall positive. And the vast majority of the world's common people stood with us immediately after 9/11, I think.
I don't think the majority of people in the world think that anymore. Hell, I don't know if a majority of Americans believe that anymore.
Hmmm....... I don't have that same impression. It's not like we committed atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan. And, as you say, they totally understood why we were there. I don't understand why our reputation would have taken a hit - the VN war is what really gave us a black eye in the eyes of the world.
And our reputation was shit in the ME anyway, except to Israel and Arab dictators who want our weaponry.
To many, the whole Iraq war was an atrocity. We didn't need to go and people think our government affirmatively lied to justify going in.
While clearly an oracle on countless topics I only take a passing interest in this stuff. My spider senses are that the younger Gen, my gen, has zero stomach for this stuff and probably in part why the old Gwb Republican Party is dead. The ubiquitous nature of our military just pisses people in many of these places off and serves to instigate
But I believe it was twenty who reminded that war isn’t the end of our military. It’s its own end. Employment. Preserving trade. Commerce. An economy unto itself that we rely on.
So if you say f nato, let’s become protectionist, while ostensibly it may be the right play there are other concerns that are problematic
This. Afghanistan was one thing, Iraq was something totally different.
And I would agree with them - now. Hindsight is always 20/20, but Saddam, ultimately unfortunately for him, had the world convinced he had WMDs.
We rushed to war in that case and I admit I was all for it, knowing what we knew then.
But overall, I think common people worldwide see the US as good. Otherwise, why would they be flocking here in historic numbers?
I didn't think we had any business going in but gave Colin Powell the benefit of the doubt. I was duped.
I hate that whole crowd of republicans. That’s why in part Liz Cheney can F off
Money and better life for the last question. But all that means is that people still think the US is the best place to come to improve their financial lot, not that the US isn't a net bad force in the rest of the world.
But hey, I don't know for sure, just going off what I glean from my feeds, reads, etc.. Maybe you could look at worldwide polling numbers on this stuff?
Evidently they don't think the US is too evil to live in.
Not directed at you, but it's amazing how many countries in these countries passing judgement on us have little to no civil rights in their own countries and treat women like chattel.
Worldwide polling numbers? Does that include N. Korean polls that show Ung getting 100% of the vote? When it comes to judging the US, our own citizens are more honest, and effective, than worldwide opinion.
What hurts our standing in the world is not taking out Saddam and the Taliban and AQ - it's exiting before the job was done so that AQ is now reforming and Iraq is Iran's bitch.
Yup. I guess we should have had better intelligence but I think the timing and environment and a confluence of anomalous stuff caused a perfect storm. We were still pissed after 9/11 and wanted to keep making bad guys pay. And I think saddam was in a tough spot. He couldn’t really come out and admit he didn’t have wmd or he’d be vulnerable to attack from others. No fan of those republicans but a unique set of conditions
That was one of the first obvious signs the CIA and our intelligence community was lying to manipulate domestic and foreign policy.
The most obvious, of course, was the bogus 'Russian Collusion' investigation.
It's not surprising the 51 'former intelligence officials' signed a letter calling into question the legitimacy of the Hunter laptop.
They are scared of anyone like Trump who can expose them.
I wasn't a fan, but it saved the industry and in the end the government actually MADE money.
And now they dance like monkeys on a string, while losing their ass on EVs.
EV Makers Losing Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars On Every Car
EV startup costs are skyrocketing, Elon Musk is going to trial over Tesla pay, and the chip shortage may be starting to ease up. All that and more in The Morning Shift for Friday, November 11, 2022.
What was ironic was the uproar the auto bailout got (gave rise to the Tea Party) while TARP didn't bother people all that much. The former saved an industry and a million jobs or more, while the latter was literally handing over billions to Wall Street bankers with no strings attached.
That's because the billionaires write the news, and the rank and file convince themselves that it's true.
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