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Israel under attack from Hamas

BradStevens said:
I agree with all your conclusions. I just don't find the Jim Crow comp useful. Your Uyghur one is much more apt.

Funny, I haven't seen any students marching against the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs, but we see a lot of chanting of "from the river to the sea" about Israelis. Why do you think that is?

As for lasting peace and tranquility tied to total bondage or denial of human rights, I can give you plenty of examples--but they all involve the more powerful group completely subjugating or annihilating the lesser group. See, e.g., the Romans and Samnites, Etruscans, and every other tribe on the Italian peninsula circa 264 BC onwards.
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not sure what your question about student marches means? china did a china-like job in handling info re: Uyghurs. maybe Palestine is just a more fashionable cause? less remote than Central Asia? easy to build a narrative on tiktok? whatever -- but still not sure how our pop impressions of these events changes the actual events.

the tribes of Italy rebelled against Rome many times, notably when Hannibal entered the peninsula. you might be confusing all tribes with Latin tribes, who had been under Rome's boot for centuries by then.

I'll continue to wait for real examples of lasting peace coming from policies similar to what Israel is proposing. since we're in modern times and have a developed sense of basic human dignity, it can't include extermination of populations. I hope I don't have to defend against that...
 
manichi said:
not sure what your question about student marches means? china did a china-like job in handling info re: Uyghurs. maybe Palestine is just a more fashionable cause? less remote than Central Asia? easy to build a narrative on tiktok? whatever -- but still not sure how our pop impressions of these events changes the actual events.

the tribes of Italy rebelled against Rome many times, notably when Hannibal entered the peninsula. you might be confusing all tribes with Latin tribes, who had been under Rome's boot for centuries by then.

I'll continue to wait for real examples of lasting peace coming from policies similar to what Israel is proposing. since we're in modern times and have a developed sense of basic human dignity, it can't include extermination of populations. I hope I don't have to defend against that...
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I think a lot the disagreement between camps on this issue might boil down to just how much of an opposing warring culture you can take to make peace. If we view the version of political beliefs tied up in Palestinian Hamas as tantamount to Naziism in its lethality, etc. then we make the analogy to Germany in WW 2. Their foes bombed them into submission. And then completely denazified their nation by force, and those nations are now at peace with them (even the other European nations they brutally conquered, raped, and murdered). Same for Japan.

If we think their culture isn't that bad and would be peaceful if only they had the right amount of land, respect, etc. then we might think that they don't need to be deprogrammed or whatever we'd like to call it.

Re the Samnites, Etruscans, etc.: some joined Hannibal, most stayed loyal to Rome. If the tribes had really rebelled in total, Hannibal would have won the 2nd Punic War. That was his strategy: to promote the cities conquered by Rome to rebel against them. But it didn't work (Roman armies had something to do with that) and so he lost. So I think it's wrong to say "the tribes rebelled." But even if you count that, fast-forward to the time of Octavian--peace for 500 years or so, yes? No mention of Etruscans or Samnites or Latins. Like I said, time is the salve. LOTS of time. And no, I don't want Israel to emulate or copy Rome's brutal tactics towards its enemies. But the question, again, goes back to: are the Palestinians their own "nation" or are they supposed to be citizens of Israel? I don't think either side wants the second.
 
BradStevens said:
I think a lot the disagreement between camps on this issue might boil down to just how much of an opposing warring culture you can take to make peace. If we view the version of political beliefs tied up in Palestinian Hamas as tantamount to Naziism in its lethality, etc. then we make the analogy to Germany in WW 2. Their foes bombed them into submission. And then completely denazified their nation by force, and those nations are now at peace with them (even the other European nations they brutally conquered, raped, and murdered). Same for Japan.

If we think their culture isn't that bad and would be peaceful if only they had the right amount of land, respect, etc. then we might think that they don't need to be deprogrammed or whatever we'd like to call it.

Re the Samnites, Etruscans, etc.: some joined Hannibal, most stayed loyal to Rome. If the tribes had really rebelled in total, Hannibal would have won the 2nd Punic War. That was his strategy: to promote the cities conquered by Rome to rebel against them. But it didn't work (Roman armies had something to do with that) and so he lost. So I think it's wrong to say "the tribes rebelled." But even if you count that, fast-forward to the time of Octavian--peace for 500 years or so, yes? No mention of Etruscans or Samnites or Latins. Like I said, time is the salve. LOTS of time. And no, I don't want Israel to emulate or copy Rome's brutal tactics towards its enemies. But the question, again, goes back to: are the Palestinians their own "nation" or are they supposed to be citizens of Israel? I don't think either side wants the second.
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Lots of similarities between the radicalized Japanese nationalist movement of the late 1800s and 1900s and Islamic followers. They aren’t going to give up for the sake of peace, even if they are losing.

Not saying your thoughts on the defense of Berlin are wrong, but how many millions of German POWs were already taken by that point? The Japanese we’re willing to die for their cause, instead of allowing the enemy to take them prisoner.
 
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JamieDimonsBalls said:
Lots of similarities between the radicalized Japanese nationalist movement of the late 1800s and 1900s and Islamic followers. They aren’t going to give up for the sake of peace, even if they are losing.

Not saying your thoughts on the defense of Berlin are wrong, but how many millions of German POWs were already taken by that point? The Japanese we’re willing to die for their cause, instead of allowing the enemy to take them prisoner.
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True. Hell, they found a guy on an island in the 70s still fanatical

www.military.com

One Japanese Soldier Continued to Fight for 30 Years After WWII

What happens when a soldier thinks his country's surrender didn't actually happen?
www.military.com www.military.com
 
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BradStevens said:
True. Hell, they found a guy on an island in the 70s still fanatical

www.military.com

One Japanese Soldier Continued to Fight for 30 Years After WWII

What happens when a soldier thinks his country's surrender didn't actually happen?
www.military.com www.military.com
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Two of them actually…

60 years after the war ends, two soldiers emerge from the jungle | World news | The Guardian

Mystery surrounds Japanese men, both in their 80s, who say they have been in hiding since second world war.
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com
 
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JamieDimonsBalls said:
Lots of similarities between the radicalized Japanese nationalist movement of the late 1800s and 1900s and Islamic followers. They aren’t going to give up for the sake of peace, even if they are losing.

Not saying your thoughts on the defense of Berlin are wrong, but how many millions of German POWs were already taken by that point? The Japanese we’re willing to die for their cause, instead of allowing the enemy to take them prisoner.
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whoa, that's an awfully broad brush. Pretty tidy justification for annihilation if you honestly believe pre-war Japanese and modern Palestinians are just too violent and radical to live.

they have nothing in common but a geopolitical stressor they couldn't overcome.
 
manichi said:
whoa, that's an awfully broad brush. Pretty tidy justification for annihilation if you honestly believe pre-war Japanese and modern Palestinians are just too violent and radical to live.

they have nothing in common but a geopolitical stressor they couldn't overcome.
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Isn’t that why closing in on 300 IDF have died already? Because we (they) want Palestinians to live?

It’d be much easier to level Gaza from the air. Drop MOAB’s to take out the tunnels.
 
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manichi said:
whoa, that's an awfully broad brush. Pretty tidy justification for annihilation if you honestly believe pre-war Japanese and modern Palestinians are just too violent and radical to live.

they have nothing in common but a geopolitical stressor they couldn't overcome.
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It goes beyond Palestinians, to Islamic fundamentalists, generally. The ultra-nationalist Japanese were not religious in the same way, but their belief structure and overall views towards sacrificing themselves for the "cause" is quite similar to Islamic fundamentalist behavior.

If you listen to Hardcore History or read in-depth analyses, even the Japanese couldn't control or convince some of their extremist wing to change their beliefs, in regards to things like starting wars, military actions, etc. Within a generation or two, Japanese became much more mainstream in terms of their value of life.
 
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Is Bibi the most resilient political animal ever?



But, but, but I thought it was only Bibi and his “right wing” government that wanted to continue the war in Gaza.
 
I can't stop giggling at this meme:

GIpLU0jXIAAw6Dm

It's a cat. Dressed up. In a little top hat. And uses "****ery." And "afoot." In a sepia toned photo.
 
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dbmhoosier said:
Shots fired.

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Weird the US would be described as a "foreign observer" when we've actually been Israel's vital benefactor since inception and the ultimate guarantor of peace both there and in the broader ME. With that role and US interests in mind, we have a right and more than enough leverage to question Israel's leaders, their lack of term limits, and their recent moves to stymy judicial powers. When these things interfere with our wants and needs, we react. like it or not, that is the pecking order. Israel can go it alone if they prefer.

but do love the clutching-the-pearls moment when it's suggested the US interferes in the democracy of allies. yes, we try to shape the elections of allies and try to topple the governments of enemies (and probably some allies too). that's who we are. welcome to earth.
 
manichi said:
Weird the US would be described as a "foreign observer" when we've actually been Israel's vital benefactor since inception and the ultimate guarantor of peace both there and in the broader ME. With that role and US interests in mind, we have a right and more than enough leverage to question Israel's leaders, their lack of term limits, and their recent moves to stymy judicial powers. When these things interfere with our wants and needs, we react. like it or not, that is the pecking order. Israel can go it alone if they prefer.

but do love the clutching-the-pearls moment when it's suggested the US interferes in the democracy of allies. yes, we try to shape the elections of allies and try to topple the governments of enemies (and probably some allies too). that's who we are. welcome to earth.
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Nope. If U.S. builds consensus to pull all funding and support from Israel so be it.

Publicly browbeating a Democratic ally because of the misperception that Netanyahu is somehow going rogue is unacceptable.

This all bullshit politics from the Biden administration. The truth is that there’s unanimity in Israel about going into Rafah and finishing the job. Ganz is on the same page and it would be no different if he were prime minister.

But this administration wants a scapegoat and a pier to try and win Michigan.
 
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NewGuyToTheBoard said:
Nope. If U.S. builds consensus to pull all funding and support from Israel so be it.

Publicly browbeating a Democratic ally because of the misperception that Netanyahu is somehow going rogue is unacceptable.

This all bullshit politics from the Biden administration. The truth is that there’s unanimity in Israel about going into Rafah and finishing the job. Ganz is on the same page and it would be no different if he were prime minister.

But this administration wants a scapegoat and a pier to try and win Michigan.
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Michigan and Minnesota. That's 100% it.
 
NewGuyToTheBoard said:
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NewGuyToTheBoard said:
Is there a single issue this clown hasn’t turned 180 degrees on in the last 30 years?
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I think we already know the answer to that question. Five decades inside the beltway feeding at the public trough will erode the values of even the most principled in exchange for political expediency. More importantly, that video of a confident public orator stands in stark contrast to what we've seen of him the past several years. His decline is as painfully obvious as it is precipitous.
 
All4You said:
I think we already know the answer to that question. Five decades inside the beltway feeding at the public trough will erode the values of even the most principled in exchange for political expediency. More importantly, that video of a confident public orator stands in stark contrast to what we've seen of him the past several years. His decline is as painfully obvious as it is precipitous.
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I thought it was a mediocre oration. The pauses made little sense. The delivery was overwrought.

I’m an excellent public speaker so I criticize more willingly than others perhaps.
 
NewGuyToTheBoard said:
What a crazy world we live in. Biden criticizing the first Bush for placating the Palestinians 30 years ago.

God he has bad hair. And the years of Botox are making him look like skeletor.
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Well beautiful locks ain't gonna be a strong point for either candidate.
 
NewGuyToTheBoard said:
Nope. If U.S. builds consensus to pull all funding and support from Israel so be it.

Publicly browbeating a Democratic ally because of the misperception that Netanyahu is somehow going rogue is unacceptable.

This all bullshit politics from the Biden administration. The truth is that there’s unanimity in Israel about going into Rafah and finishing the job. Ganz is on the same page and it would be no different if he were prime minister.

But this administration wants a scapegoat and a pier to try and win Michigan.
Click to expand...

nah, the Democrats have been pretty consistent on Israel for decades just as Republicans used to be (Bush Sr., for example, was an ardent supporter of two-state solution and stopping new settlements.). what changed was populist/ nationalist leanings of the new Republican Party. Sprinkle in the might-makes-right form of modern American Evangelicalism and voila: strong-arming leaders on the rise/ ideals of liberal democracy and coalition building on the decline.

Netanyahu is going rogue against US interests. even if there was unanimity in Israel, which there isn't (link?), what's that got to do with us? If you use our weapons systems, take our money, benefit from our security and economic networks, you are held accountable. same rules applied for democratic and republican administrations since Israel came to be, but something changed recently... lol.

what am I missing about this "American First" thing?
 
manichi said:
nah, the Democrats have been pretty consistent on Israel for decades just as Republicans used to be (Bush Sr., for example, was an ardent supporter of two-state solution and stopping new settlements.). what changed was populist/ nationalist leanings of the new Republican Party. Sprinkle in the might-makes-right form of modern American Evangelicalism and voila: strong-arming leaders on the rise/ ideals of liberal democracy and coalition building on the decline.

Netanyahu is going rogue against US interests. even if there was unanimity in Israel, which there isn't (link?), what's that got to do with us? If you use our weapons systems, take our money, benefit from our security and economic networks, you are held accountable. same rules applied for democratic and republican administrations since Israel came to be, but something changed recently... lol.

what am I missing about this "American First" thing?
Click to expand...
What a bunch of gobbledygook. You even managed to shoehorn “America First” in there somehow.

The idea that our domestic political squabbles plays into Israel’s decision making process at all is so god damn stupid.

80%+ of Israelis support going into Rafah. That is unanimity in modern political terms.

www.globes.co.il

Most Israelis want Rafah operation despite US - survey

www.globes.co.il www.globes.co.il

You are pretty poorly informed.
 
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manichi said:
Weird the US would be described as a "foreign observer" when we've actually been Israel's vital benefactor since inception and the ultimate guarantor of peace both there and in the broader ME. With that role and US interests in mind, we have a right and more than enough leverage to question Israel's leaders, their lack of term limits, and their recent moves to stymy judicial powers. When these things interfere with our wants and needs, we react. like it or not, that is the pecking order. Israel can go it alone if they prefer.

but do love the clutching-the-pearls moment when it's suggested the US interferes in the democracy of allies. yes, we try to shape the elections of allies and try to topple the governments of enemies (and probably some allies too). that's who we are. welcome to earth.
Click to expand...
My BS detector is going nuts at the moment.
 
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