homegrown radicals will always wait us out. see afghanistan. you check ISIS with proxies and Iran with allies. the US is ME weary.
Israel under attack from Hamas
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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homegrown radicals will always wait us out. see afghanistan. you check ISIS with proxies and Iran with allies. the US is ME weary.
The world is ME weary. It’s never going to be peaceful.
Exactly what happened when we left Iraq at the end of 2011. I said we’d have to go back and we did.
Ok.
But counter: when we left Vietnam and it fell to the North, the world didn’t crumble and Vietnam eventually stabilized.
agree. as currently situated, it never will be. but we can't go back in time and require the Ottomans and British to draw more realistic borders. we can't go back and stop the CIA from overthrowing legitimate governments. all those chances we had to "westernize" the ME are gone. and now we realize all our ME policing only leads to the need for even more ME policing.
we've really put our foot in it. no easy answers.
So should we just give up and let the ME be swallowed by ultra-conservative Islam, the way it did Iran, Lebanon, etc.? The problem with that approach seems to be that Islam's spread is literally at odds with Western culture and values, of which our people and our allies generally support.
It may be that Sharia Law is the optimal way to organize societies across the world. We are very ethnocentric in the West.
I dunno. to brad's point, we let SE Asia get swallowed by communism (maybe in name only) and today it's a much different place. granted, we didn't need oil from there and intl shipping wasn't threatened by it.
we certainly played a part in the spread of ultra-conservative Islam. our direct involvement trying to counter those factions continues to give it momentum, no matter how many holes we try to plug up at once, no matter our western values and good intentions.
I'm for the new approach. load up our regional partners and send a carrier strike group or two when matters get out of hand. stay small in the ME, stay large around Russia and China.
Eventually. My ship saved a boatload of Vietnamese boat people in the South China Sea in 1988. They started with 120 people desperate to escape and only 47 were alive by the time we found them. That was more than 13 years after the fall of Saigon. The winners of that war weren’t “good guys.” We reneged on our promises of support to South Vietnam after our departure. It wasn’t a proud moment.
I didn't say the North Vietnamese were good guys.
The U.S.'s role can't be to defend all the good guys out there or defeat all the bad guys. Nor has that ever been the basis of our foreign policy.
The basis of our foreign policy is to protect our interests. It can't ever be anything else.
Take my Thumbs up for your boat saving those survivors that were left. Not the rest of your post. Credit where credit is due, and not discredit for that of which of out of your control.
Ship. 😉 Cool thing is keeping in touch with many of them on Facebook. Some were just kids back then. One mother gave birth in our ship. Only some settled in the US but those have attended our ship reunions. All satisfying and cool stuff.
Mea Culpa, it wasn't a slam I swear. I was reading your "Boatload" with my brain and my fingers wiggled out boat. Success stories like this live on in us forever.
I've got a cool one along the birth part. Little feller was even named after me I found out later.
We help those we can, when we can.
US seizes massive stash of Iranian weapons headed for Houthi rebels
A statement from US officials called the haul 'lethal aid that originated in Iran.'
I think there is a lesson to be learned from the Israelis in dealing with Islamic terrorists. There isn't any point in attempting hearts and minds. Just kill them wherever you find them.
Interesting discussion/debate here on Israel v. Palestine:
Robert Wright, who is the more critical of Israel's response, is not very cohesive. But the way the two men respect each other, tone down the rhetoric, and try to respond to each other's points (even if they don't always do so) is a great model for how to have these discussions.
One thing in the middle of the pod that is scary is Roberts' observation that we might be on the verge of WW III and have two people running for President in the U.S. who really aren't at their best and really can't handle it.
A Lively Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (with Robert Wright) - Econlib
Journalist and author Robert Wright invited EconTalk’s Russ Roberts to his podcast, NonZero, to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, knowing that there would be plenty to disagree about. The two then agreed to release their back-and-forth on their respective podcasts. The result is a lively...
www.econtalk.org
Robert Wright, who is the more critical of Israel's response, is not very cohesive. But the way the two men respect each other, tone down the rhetoric, and try to respond to each other's points (even if they don't always do so) is a great model for how to have these discussions.
One thing in the middle of the pod that is scary is Roberts' observation that we might be on the verge of WW III and have two people running for President in the U.S. who really aren't at their best and really can't handle it.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-february-22-2024
Iran and the Houthis are likely using their attacks in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden to test and refine their approach to striking naval targets. Houthi leader Abdulmalik al Houthi stated on February 22 that the group will “escalate” its operations targeting shipping around the Red Sea.[1] Abdulmalik added that the group would introduce "submarine weapons,” likely referring to unmanned underwater vehicles (UUV), but gave no further details.[2] CENTCOM reported that the Houthis used a UUV for the first time to threaten shipping around the Red Sea on February 17.[3] The Houthis — enabled directly by Iran — have used combinations of cruise and ballistic missiles as well as aerial, surface, and underwater drones to attack civilian and military vessels around the Red Sea since November 2023. Iranian military advisers are providing targeting intelligence to support the Houthis’ attacks targeting US naval vessels.[4] US naval vessels have regularly intercepted Houthi munitions targeting civilian and military vessels off the coast of Yemen. These Houthi attacks provide Iran and the Houthis opportunities to evaluate the effectiveness of different strike packages to understand how they can evade and overwhelm US defenses more effectively.
——
Mini subs didn’t help Japan at Pearl Harbor … UUVs won’t kill crews that aren’t there.
The Iraqi naval intelligence is still running the show … are Iraqi ships still in the Read Sea?
Practice makes perfect… Argentina used deception approaches to defeat British air search radars. That’s the problem with a defensive strategy… eventually your opponent learns something
Iran and the Houthis are likely using their attacks in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden to test and refine their approach to striking naval targets. Houthi leader Abdulmalik al Houthi stated on February 22 that the group will “escalate” its operations targeting shipping around the Red Sea.[1] Abdulmalik added that the group would introduce "submarine weapons,” likely referring to unmanned underwater vehicles (UUV), but gave no further details.[2] CENTCOM reported that the Houthis used a UUV for the first time to threaten shipping around the Red Sea on February 17.[3] The Houthis — enabled directly by Iran — have used combinations of cruise and ballistic missiles as well as aerial, surface, and underwater drones to attack civilian and military vessels around the Red Sea since November 2023. Iranian military advisers are providing targeting intelligence to support the Houthis’ attacks targeting US naval vessels.[4] US naval vessels have regularly intercepted Houthi munitions targeting civilian and military vessels off the coast of Yemen. These Houthi attacks provide Iran and the Houthis opportunities to evaluate the effectiveness of different strike packages to understand how they can evade and overwhelm US defenses more effectively.
——
Mini subs didn’t help Japan at Pearl Harbor … UUVs won’t kill crews that aren’t there.
The Iraqi naval intelligence is still running the show … are Iraqi ships still in the Read Sea?
Practice makes perfect… Argentina used deception approaches to defeat British air search radars. That’s the problem with a defensive strategy… eventually your opponent learns something
Interesting discussion/debate here on Israel v. Palestine:
A Lively Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (with Robert Wright) - Econlib
Journalist and author Robert Wright invited EconTalk’s Russ Roberts to his podcast, NonZero, to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, knowing that there would be plenty to disagree about. The two then agreed to release their back-and-forth on their respective podcasts. The result is a lively...www.econtalk.org
Robert Wright, who is the more critical of Israel's response, is not very cohesive. But the way the two men respect each other, tone down the rhetoric, and try to respond to each other's points (even if they don't always do so) is a great model for how to have these discussions.
One thing in the middle of the pod that is scary is Roberts' observation that we might be on the verge of WW III and have two people running for President in the U.S. who really aren't at their best and really can't handle it.
good stuff. yes, and a great model.
I do think talk of WW3 is overblown but it makes a scintillating topic for articles and podcasts. Russia will need time to recover from Ukraine, if or (more likely) when an agreement is made, and China is a lot further from being able to take an aggressive stance abroad, even in regards to Taiwan, than folks realize.
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It looks like they have three goals:
1. Demilitarize Gaza
2. Change the civil ordering/structuring (I would imagine to ensure they spend money given to them on their people, not tunnels and terrorism)
3. Changing the antisemitic, radicalizing education of young children
Sounds good. Not sure if they can do it, though.
That’s an interesting point. It seems that the current opinions are focused on whether Putin, Xi, or whoever want either Trump or Biden in charge. Knowing that there very likely are social engineering efforts intended to influence elections, maybe the goal isn’t necessarily for one over the other, so long as it is one of those two, & not another, more capable candidate from either side.Interesting discussion/debate here on Israel v. Palestine:
A Lively Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (with Robert Wright) - Econlib
Journalist and author Robert Wright invited EconTalk’s Russ Roberts to his podcast, NonZero, to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, knowing that there would be plenty to disagree about. The two then agreed to release their back-and-forth on their respective podcasts. The result is a lively...www.econtalk.org
Robert Wright, who is the more critical of Israel's response, is not very cohesive. But the way the two men respect each other, tone down the rhetoric, and try to respond to each other's points (even if they don't always do so) is a great model for how to have these discussions.
One thing in the middle of the pod that is scary is Roberts' observation that we might be on the verge of WW III and have two people running for President in the U.S. who really aren't at their best and really can't handle it.
To achieve that goal the Israeli hard-right is doubling down on complete restriction of the movement for Gazans. In our own history we've seen the dire long-term consequences for both the restricted and restrictors. You become locked at the hip with the people you mean to contain; their fate becomes your fate. Walk through any US inner city and you'll see the consequences of that model first hand, even generations later. This path for Israel only ensures radicalism, dysfunction for Palestinians and the broader ME.
Step back from the basic human level, this also doesn't serve US or western interests as evidenced by the growing protests to the current state of the conflict and this path forward. A whole new generation of radical Arabs isn't good for trade. it isn't good for our 401ks. it keeps our military and budgets tied up in intractable conflicts. it keeps our service people in harm's way.
The Israeli hard-right has had a much easier time selling the world on war than they will their broken-in-the-box plan for peace.
I don’t think the analogy between black people in US ghettos or during Jim Crow and Palestinians in Gaza holds well.
If it did, Israel would love that situation.
"Israeli hard right" What a crock of shit. Israel is currently operating under a unity government. Gantz and Netenyahu have essentially been in lockstep on all things re: Gaza since 10/7. The Israeli population as a whole overwhelmingly supports current actions in Gaza. The "hard right', "Netenyahu" fear mongering smears are bullshit. Horseshit. And detatched from reality.
I'm not even going to attempt to decipher your point about the inner cities. It doesn't make any sense.
eh - that's a surface read of it. it's an analogy between restricted populations, not the details of Jim Crow vs Israel's stance towards Gaza. again, the negative consequences for captive and captor when putting a whole nation in jail are undeniable. from the jewish bible to the iron curtain, it shapes the human experience at its core.
would love to have my mind changed here. any historical examples of similar actions ending in lasting peace are welcome.
if only you had been paying attention to Israel before 10/7...
1/4 of Israelis still supported a Palestinian state 2 months after 10/7. that number will rise again to a majority after reality sets in but the hard right will always be working to keep it out of reach.
Life in Israel After Oct. 7 in 5 Charts
As the Israel-Hamas war continues, Gallup surveys show hopes for a two-state solution and peace are further out of reach, as Israelis experience record-high worry, stress and sadness.
news.gallup.com
Israeli Polls Regarding Peace with the Palestinians and a Palestinian State
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
thinking Israel is unified on this, or will stay unified, is the actual bullshit.
man, some of you guys were really taken in by the tough talk after 10/7. same thing happened after 9/11 and look where that got us...
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What a little know it all clown boy you are. Israeli public opinion on Palestinian statehood soured post 10/7?
Fascinating. Do we have polling on the change in American opinion wrt to the empire of Japan post Pearl Harbor?
"Putting a whole nation in jail" is not what happened in the Jim Crow era, though. It's not even close. Too many differences in history, religion, circumstances, etc. between the two groups.
Lasting peace is achieved with a lot of time. I mean, look at your example of the Jim Crow era. Do we now have black people shooting rockets at white neighborhoods and talking about destroying white civilization as we know it in the United States? Participating in suicide bombings of white neighborhoods? Mass rapes and butcherings? No, and we never did. And that is why the analogy falls apart.
I was really hoping this ID would be NewGooToTheBoard.
agree to disagree, but still waiting for the example of total bondage or even just Jim Crow-era denial of human rights leading to lasting peace and tranquility. You are missing the broader point that humans don't function well under such duress. we've researched that at the individual level (see BF Skinner's work on disincentives). humans have passed down these warnings in stories for several thousand years now. it's way past time to listen.
A small number of Uyghurs made brutal attacks against Han Chinese. Like the Palestinians and Israel, the average Uyghur has no love for China. Beijing's solution was to further subjugate the whole population. There are no perfect comparisons but the same themes sure keep reappearing...
Joe six-pack Palestinian might hate Jews but it was Hamas who attacked Israel. You can either give Joe a reasonable path to peace and prosperity or you can further radicalize him. The latter doesn't serve Israeli or US interests either.
disagreeing with you isn't all that fun, Brad. you never call anyone a d*ck. you leave no openings to question your intelligence. not cool. DO BETTER!
I agree with all your conclusions. I just don't find the Jim Crow comp useful. Your Uyghur one is much more apt.
Funny, I haven't seen any students marching against the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs, but we see a lot of chanting of "from the river to the sea" about Israelis. Why do you think that is?
As for lasting peace and tranquility tied to total bondage or denial of human rights, I can give you plenty of examples--but they all involve the more powerful group completely subjugating or annihilating the lesser group. See, e.g., the Romans and Samnites, Etruscans, and every other tribe on the Italian peninsula circa 264 BC onwards.
Tell him he's not invited to 3up and his flatbill is actually bent.
That should get a rise out of him.
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