How do you deal with Islam?
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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How about having a Title to property which is no longer considered valid by a nation created by the United Nations ?
Israel wasn't created by the United Nations. It was created much in the same way the United States was created: by declaring its own existence and then solidifying that declaration by winning a war.
Yes. Israel and surrounding Arabs fought wars in 1947 and 1967. 1947 was a civil war. Israel was part of the British and Ottoman empires immediately before 1947.
It's a bit more squishy than that, no? The was a proposed resolution from the UNSCOP, which was not implemented before the 1948 war.
The UN proposal was never implemented. The Arabs universally rejected it, and when the war ended, much of the proposed Arab state was occupied by Israel, while the rest was occupied by Egypt and Jordan.
Exactly. The Arabs have been rejecting proposals the entire time. They aren't serious people.
What would you call the Nazis expelling Jews from their homes in Europe? Palestinians had homes and resided in the Israel area, and the Jews removed them with force and took their homes and land
I'm sure some are more serious than others. All I'm doing here is describing reality, not making broad judgments about groups of people.
That’s interesting. I mostly disagree with Sapolsky. I’d love to meet him and question him. I agree with the idea that our decisions are influenced by past experiences together with education, knowledge, etc. I certainly don’t think the influences of the past are so compelling to remove free will and decision making.You might like this. Just popped up in my feed:
Scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don't have free will
Before epilepsy was understood to be a neurological condition, people believed it was caused by the moon, or by phlegm in the brain. They condemned seizures as evidence of witchcraft or demonic possession, and killed or castrated sufferers to prevent them from passing tainted blood to a new...phys.org
The primary mover of decisions is pleasure seeking. That involves planning and understanding cause and effect. The further we project pleasure into the future the more complex decisions become. They certainly don’t follow falling dominos. They are more like the ping-pong ball mouse-trap analogy. Primitive brains are driven by the power of now, more complex thinking goes way beyond now. The further we project, the more free will exists.
Sure, but you can't point me to serious proposals and diplomacy by Arabs as it relates to Israel. If you prove me wrong, I'll eat crow.
That is a fair criticism. But, why are you not also acknowledging the same that was done to Jews under Ottoman Empire? We could go tit for tat back to 1000+ BC
Huh? Every bit of the United States is a descendant of a European Colony. It wasn’t created out of thin air.
What do you call the Gaza Strip and West Bank? Egypt and Jordan basically provided land for the Palestinian state. Israel has occupied both areas and basically taken a dump on the peace process of turning these areas into a Palestinian state.
They've occupied those areas because they are constantly being attacked by Palestinian terrorists from those locations.
Why do you think Jordan and Egypt gave them those areas? Why doesn't Jordan or Egypt help provide refuge for the Palestinians? You know the answer, as does everyone else.
I'm sure there are thinkers out there with serious ideas, but I don't think any of them are leaders on either side. Certain Arab governments (read: Sunni governments that don't trust Iran) would be happy to let Israel be, if they thought their citizens would let them get away with it, perhaps, but for the most part, you're not going to get a serious peace proposal from the Arabs. On the other side, Israel pretty much signaled it's preference for the status quo rather than an actual solution when it decided not to dismantle the settlements.
Now, Israel does have some leaders who very vocally disagree with the current approach and believe that a real two-state solution is in Israel's best interests, but none of them are in power, AFAIK.
Israel actually took those areas in 1967, and Jordan and Egypt agreed as part of a peace process to use those lands to help create a Palestinian state. Jordan and Egypt believe Palestinians should have their own state in these areas. Israel occupies those lands because they want those lands and don't want to peacefully settle like the Americans did with the Native Americans.
Nonetheless, Palestinians, like Jews, already live all over the place, including Egypt and Jordan. Many Palestinians left in 1948 and 1967.
There is no difference between a terrorist attack and bombing civilians. I'll say it again: there are enough bad guys on both sides to go around, they are in charge, and they don't want peace.
Besides that, the two state options that they favor are unacceptable to the other side. So there really isn't much progress from that regard.
And unless and until they go back to "land-for-peace" sensibility, they have no chance of ever producing an acceptable proposal, either. I'm not saying the Arabs are sitting around just begging the Israelis for a reasonable compromise. They are not. I'm just saying that if they ever found a way to get to that mindset, Israel would have to give up a lot, because what they currently stand on is not reasonable in any sense of the term.
I think it’s now obvious that settling this mess by deciding who gets to live where won’t work. This isn’t about land. Palestinians and Iran hate Jews. They believe Israel must go. Arafat signaled the problem 40 years ago. We and the west have been in denial about that ever since. If we can manage to have Palestinians accept Jews as neighbors, the land issues will take care of themselves.
So long as Jews are subject to hate in the worst Hitler mold, their position is eminently reasonable.
The land issues will not take care of themselves. If we can manage to have the Palestinians accept Jews as neighbors, then the Jews are going to have to do something other than fence the Palestinians off in a series of arid ghettos.
Most of the Arabs in the neighborhood made peace with or accepted Israel after 1967. The main part of the conflict between Israel and Palestine is the land: the war has basically been going on since 1947. Most Palestinians and Israeli Jews want peace, and giving the Palestinians some land would go a very long way in making peace. There are bad people on both sides that don't want peace and believe total victory is possible. There are religious extremists.
The crazy part is Israel has become the oppressor/bully to the Palestinians and treated them the way Nazis treated them. Property theft, creation of a society with a favored race, denial of basic human rights, herding them into concentration camps/ghettos, jailing, beatings, killings.
That's a fascinating proposition, but my gut tells me to push back on it. I do think most of Christian intellectual history was highlighted by an almost fetishistic respect for logic, detail, semantics, even pedantry. Even when political leaders and unlettered community leaders were inciting mobs against the Jews or burning the weird lady down the way for being a witch, the theologians were sitting around arguing theology in the most mechanical fashion. Seriously, go look up the differences between Chalcedonian christology and miaphysitism, and then remind yourself the church split in half over this. And be amazed.
But I don't think this mindset came from Christianity itself. I think it comes from the intellectual traditions of Greece that predate Chritianity. That's just my gut response. I'll have to mull it over some more.
Your first paragraph pretty well explains our decades-old position. Arafat signaled otherwise. . We were in denial because that’s was seen as unacceptable. October 7 was a game changer. October 7 was not an impulsive move. It built up for a long time.
I don’t agree with your second paragraph.
If the Palestinians accept Jews as peaceful neighbors, I don’t think they will be fenced off in arid ghettos.
Well, the actual leaders of Israel have provided no reason whatsoever for you to display such optimism.
Why do you refuse to believe/accept the stated objectives of Hamas & the people who elected them as it relates to Jews & Israel? Should Israel simply give them free reign & hope they’re just posturing?
Of course I could becwrong about that. But if Palestinians and Jews could ever sing Kum Ba Yah together, I like my odds of being right.
Fair enough. If we're going to dream, might as well dream big, I guess. My issue is really with the concept that Israel has already done what it needs to do, and now it's just the Palestinians standing in the way of peace. That's not true. The Palestinians are standing in the way of peace, for sure, but if they jumped out of the way, we'd see the Israelis right there. Whoever moves first, they are both eventually going to have to move. A lot.
You understand there are a lot of far right Israelis that want to cleanse the land of Palestinians, right? Israel is basically an apartheid. Zionism is based on a favored race. It goes both ways.
I am unaware of the ordinary Jew expressing hate of Palestinians in a manner similar to vice versa. Certainly we don’t see Israel randomly sending rockets into Palestinian civilian areas. In the light of this, how do you expect Israelis to move?
What do you think happens when Israel drops bombs in Gaza? You really think there aren't Israelis that mistreat and hate Palestinians? There are plenty of ordinary Palestinians that just want peace.
No, the Israelis are not treating Palestinians "the way Nazis treated them." Comparing the two situations is ridiculously ignorant.
Nor is killing civilians as a result of bombing a building after notifying its residents that you are going to bomb it and giving them time to leave anywhere close, morally, to a terrorist attack where men, women, and children are butchered, burned alive, raped, and decapitated.
They have a society based on Zionism, which is racist. They took homes and land from the Palestinians. They have constructed apartheid walls and herded Palestinians into an occupied area. They have not settled with the Palestinians the way Americans did with the native Americans. They beat, kill, jail, and mistreat Palestinians with impunity.
I know a bully/oppressor when I see one, which is really weird due to the way Jews have been treated: they have become the oppressor/bully. I have enough sense to understand the extremist part of both sides suck. It takes 2 to tango, and I tend to hold the side with more resources most responsible.
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No, Zionism as a concept is not necessarily based on a "favored" race. The word and the movement include lots of ideologies, and yes, some Jews think they are a "favored" race. They are a minority and that belief is not a necessary one for Zionism.
Zionism - Wikipedia
If it "goes both ways," please list or link the instances of far-right Israelis suicide bombing the West Bank or Gaza, or a list or links of them murdering, raping, and torturing Palestinian civilians.
Zionism is based on a Jewish homeland. You really think non-jews in this society are considered the same? I literally just summed up the terrible treatment of Palestinians, and I in no way excused the actions of Hamas.No, Zionism as a concept is not necessarily based on a "favored" race. The word and the movement include lots of ideologies, and yes, some Jews think they are a "favored" race. They are a minority and that belief is not a necessary one for Zionism.
Zionism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
If it "goes both ways," please list or link the instances of far-right Israelis suicide bombing the West Bank or Gaza, or a list or links of them murdering, raping, and torturing Palestinian civilians.
Guess who said this? “Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the
nation-state of the Jewish people and only them”. Hint: the PM
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