Yeah and having watched Gaza their quality of life is bad they just grow up hating and pissed. 35 percent of Palestinians live in poverty. Over 50 percent in Gaza and the West Bank suffer from food insecurity. Broke hungry people lash out
How do you deal with Islam?
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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They got around it for centuries, allowing Christian and Jews to exist within Islam, while treating them as second-class citizens (which still allowed them to rise the ranks and live fairly peaceful lives, most of the time):The root of the problem. You're not going to ever get around this.
Does the Quran instruct to kill the non-Muslims? - BibleAsk
Let's allow the Quran to answer this question:Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where ...bibleask.org
The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
The Dhimmi
Still, as People of the Book, Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the dhimma (writ of protection) was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This protection did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer – the Muslim.
In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the tribute (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).
Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)"
In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the tribute (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).
Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)"
The world gave the Palestinians $40 billion in aid from 1994 to 2020. They received roughly another $2.5 billion in from 2021 to 2022. There are 5 million people between Gaza (2 million) and the West Bank (3 million). The West Bank is roughly the size of Delaware and the Gaza Strip is about 2 times the size of Washington D.C.
So that is $1.1 billion (give or take) in aid a year to those areas where the population is smaller than Indiana and the size is similar to Delaware. Those people are broke and hungry because their leaders wish it to be so.
Again, comparing modern times to centuries prior is a fallacy. We aren’t in an agrarian society, for starters.
They got around it for centuries, allowing Christian and Jews to exist within Islam, while treating them as second-class citizens (which still allowed them to rise the ranks and live fairly peaceful lives, most of the time):
The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
The Dhimmi
Still, as People of the Book, Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the dhimma (writ of protection) was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This protection did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer – the Muslim.
In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the tribute (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).
Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)"
Super enlightened bunch.
Again, I’m against expansionary settlements by Israelis, but the two state solution isn’t in the realm of possibility unless Israel were to retreat to its original borders. Zero chance in hell it would do that given the rocket firepower and strategic Safety of buffer zones and places like the Golan Heights
why do you care? pro gun people pretending to care about life is ironic.
Not a single person is pro-abortion but rather pro-choice in certain circumstances because some people understand that there are some that have to make a difficult choice.
Edited out incorrect assumption
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It isn't a fallacy, it is the reality of humanity since the dawn of civilization (if not before). It plays out on a micro level even to this day. What is "gentrification" if not people finding a place desirable and taking it from those less fortunate because they have the means to do so? It is a more civilized way to displace people but still displacement against their will in many cases.
The rest of the world isn't the West. As the population of Israel grows they see an opportunity to make space for that population and they go and do it. The Jewish settlers are compelled by the same thing that had compelled settlers of every race, nation, religion, etc. throughout history. They see opportunity to better their lives over there so they are going over there. The Muslims being in the way is given the same thought as what allowed Muslims to be there (replacing the Christians and Jews) in the first place. History didn't just end because we don't like messy situations here. Sometimes you have to accept that the world is going to turn despite all your efforts to the contrary.
The only difference between us and the people two centuries ago is we have better technology and we are living in enough comfort to not want to shake up the status quo. Shift that enough and we are just as willing to go Medieval as anyone else.
US gun deaths
There were a total of 45,222 firearm deaths in the US in 2020, an increase of 14% or 5,155 firearm deaths from 2019.
usafacts.org
What the data says about abortion in the U.S.
The U.S. abortion rate has generally declined since the 1980s, but there have been slight upticks in the late 2010s and early 2020s.
www.pewresearch.org
According to the CDC 2020- 620K+ abortions
According to the CDC 2021 - 48K+ gun related deaths
We are done here.
if you want to count on something, it's hickory being wrong. you don't even need to bother with research. whatever his claim, side with the opposite and you'll be on strong footingUS gun deaths
There were a total of 45,222 firearm deaths in the US in 2020, an increase of 14% or 5,155 firearm deaths from 2019.What the data says about abortion in the U.S.
The U.S. abortion rate has generally declined since the 1980s, but there have been slight upticks in the late 2010s and early 2020s.
According to the CDC 2020- 620K+ abortions
According to the CDC 2021 - 48K+ gun related deaths
We are done here.
Technically, you're right.
“Indiscriminate” bombing became standard protocol during World War II. (Curtis LeMay won the argument on the US side after Hitler and Churchill went at it.)
That’s why “Rolling Thunder” could become/became an option in Vietnam, moreso because the US had air superiority, and wasn’t even risking invading/attacking troops.
US gun deaths
There were a total of 45,222 firearm deaths in the US in 2020, an increase of 14% or 5,155 firearm deaths from 2019.What the data says about abortion in the U.S.
The U.S. abortion rate has generally declined since the 1980s, but there have been slight upticks in the late 2010s and early 2020s.
According to the CDC 2020- 620K+ abortions
According to the CDC 2021 - 48K+ gun related deaths
We are done here.
I stand corrected. My apologies.
It’s a virtuous shit cycle for them, but they aren’t doing themselves any favors.
When the Jews starting migrating in bigger numbers 1880 -1940 era they purchased the land from the Arabs who were most willing to sell. Jews kept the bill of sales as proof. The land was just desert. The Jews started kibbutz's where they changed the desert into farming. It was very hard labor. Arab culture was not like this. After seeing this, many Arabs did want to buy the land back. That's how the land was transferred in the beginning.
It does help security. What other reason is needed when you're continually being attacked.
Jews have as much right to live there as anyone else.
Boggles the mind why people even engage that cretin.
My board experience is 1000 times better since I put him on ignore.
Come on. These are not followers of Islam. These are extremists using Islam as their shield. Let us not forget that there were Christians who used religion to perpetuate heinous acts as well. It is the human condition and proclivity to do evil.
Some of the land. Huge swaths of it were confiscated during the civil war, many as a result of terror attacks by Haganah and other Jewish paramilitaries. Whitewashing history does Israel no favors.
Yeah the Christians were in disarray, which tends to happen when all of your former cultural centers are being attacked and overrun by those "enlightened" folks.
I am sure there are many good and pleasant Muslims. I have no love for what their religion represents. Islam sucks. It is a political ideology developed by a 7th century warlord (and all that came with that) wrapped up in the skin of the two religions they were trying to displace.
You remind me of my favorite literary punching bag, Brad Thor, whose
He was comparing it to the Native Americans making an argument awful close to might makes right, so explain how might makes right doesn't fit Ukraine?
It does if you dig more than a centimeter deep.
In any movement there is a range of fanatical true believers down to those who just kind of go with the flow because it is the easy thing to do. There were a whole bunch of Germans walking around in 1965 who were "good people" that would have been "bad people" 20 years prior.
I think the West Bank is an unnecessary side show. The real issue is whether Palestinians eill can ever accept a Jew as a friend and neighbor. That must happen before any progress can happen. Until that time, we need to pick a side and as far as I am concerned the side is Israel.
Once the Palestinians accept a Jew as a person, there are many options for the West Bank and Gaza. But I now think it all must be Israel with some degree of autonomy for Arab locations.
Might doesn't make right. Might usually determines ownership.
The people we took the land from when the US was being established had often taken that land from someone else. Because they were "right" (whatever that means)? No. It was because they could. And for a time they were propped up by foreign powers to try and even the playing field and be a thron in the side of a common enemy.
The settlers weren't right or wrong, they were the winners.
Human nature hasn't changed. Ever.
You think because we're more 'enlightened' now that people don't revert to human nature, which is exploring and conquering other lands.
You see the savagery in the Hamas attacks - and you think it's any different today than it was centuries ago?
This is actually a pretty good thread. Can you stay on topic or not post in the thread?
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VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Didn't Arafat try to get the Golan Heights when they were negotiating with Israel? Wisely Israel said no way because they need the GH for security purposes.
To the degree that "human nature" involves the way we behave due to environmental factors (both in development and epigenetics and current stimuli response), I think we have, on average, changed. Probably not enough to justify your statement being false, though, in this context.
But with more food, security, less stress, less trauma in early childhood (and even the womb), you actually do change the "human nature" of adults, if by "human nature" we mean the statistical probability a person will act in one way or another in response to certain stimuli. Think about it: all the people who go through our criminal justice system who grew up poor, with crappy parents who beat them, etc.--they are the minority today. 1000 years ago, they were the vast majority of people.
For an interesting discussion of some of these topics, a timely interview:
https://simplecast.econtalk.org/episodes/robert-sapolsky-on-determinism-free-will-and-responsibility
Also, Sapolsky's book Behave provides a deep dive into the science behind causal mechanisms of human behavior. From the neural responses and the chemistry behind it that cause our actions in the moment, to the evolutionary mechanisms that caused these neurons to exist. I highly recommend it, even if you--like me--want to hold on to the notion of free will with every fiber of your being.
During those times didn‘t Bedouins occupy the land with no recognized boundaries? Is it fair to say that such land was actually confiscated?
This stuff has always fascinated me. I’m particularly interested in the portions of our brain that we use for making choices and decisions. I’m sure that has evolved. I think free will plays a substantial role even if it is more or less predictable.
Bringing this point home, I’ve frequently posted about the notions of internet trolling, ignore buttons etc. I think those ideas flow from mindfulness factors I don’t have in abundance. I don’t think I’m alone. Can that be generational? Interesting.
Oh this part of history gets really complicated with a lot of gray areas but interesting for sure especially when you throw in religion. No absolutes intended because I'm sure some land was taken by bad deals, etc. Especially when you include the Ottomans. Rothschild spent a fortune buying some of the land and sending agriculture experts to help migrants develop farms so it wasn't migrants alone that figured it out. . The Haganah were mainly defense forces used to protect the settlers but a splint off group called Irgun who got fed up with the Haganah became the offensive but mostly retaliatory. I think at some point they merged again before the King David Hotel bombing ? And from the Haganah evolved the Mossad and Israel Defense Forces IDF.
The comment I had was mostly prior to any major internal conflicts but as I recall after the first major conflict when the Arabs lost a lot of land and fled, a lot of those people came back and were accepted but it was the next war where Israel said take a hike.
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That isn’t why they are doing it though.
Using Hamas as a beacon for modern humanity? You cannot be serious.
This is literally going back to the crux of the problem that I brought up in the first place. Why is it that many societies have evolved and others haven’t? Culture? Religion? Both?
And the variables of intelligence and personality, I think, make more of a contribution than evolution. I just hasn't been long enough for our brains to evolve. Though, I believe the brain a mystery so who knows.
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The local Shepherd Center dealt with learning about various religions by inviting clerics to teach us about their religion.
The Muslim imam drew a large audience and was well received by a crowd which consisted of many religious followers including Judaism.
A questioner attending the lecture from the Jewish Community Center acknowledged working with the Muslim speaker as part of an effort to work together on local projects.
Proving once again religion doesn't have to divide us.
