"Class War over Financial Stability"

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Ever been to a US base for a military surplus auction? I used to go with my grandpa to Ft Campbell and Ft Knox.
Massive lots of NEW in box or wrap gear along with old stuff. I'm not talking just clothes and small items. Surplus vehicles, helicopter parts, office furniture ect.

As far as regulations, for and example, I used to work in a USDA regulated food facility. I don't see why the state couldn't be responsible for continuous inspection and USDA do spot inspection.

There are at least 70 federal regulatory agencies. No reason to not save just because it won't amount to "that much". Any saving is better than nothing.

You're right that any saving is better than nothing. But I think politicians use the fraud, waste, abuse line to justify spending without raising taxes (or lowing taxes without cutting spending) and it never works. It's a line used for people to feel good about spending money and not off-setting it.

Both sides use this rationale and have for decades. I doubt they will stop and I doubt the public will get wise to it.

 

[Sope Creek]

Ever been to a US base for a military surplus auction? I used to go with my grandpa to Ft Campbell and Ft Knox.
Massive lots of NEW in box or wrap gear along with old stuff. I'm not talking just clothes and small items. Surplus vehicles, helicopter parts, office furniture ect.

As far as regulations, for and example, I used to work in a USDA regulated food facility. I don't see why the state couldn't be responsible for continuous inspection and USDA do spot inspection.

There are at least 70 federal regulatory agencies. No reason to not save just because it won't amount to "that much". Any saving is better than nothing.

Would the states do inspections? Or just leave the businesses alone?

I would point you to The Jungle for an example of what might happen.

 

[mcmurtry66]

You're right that any saving is better than nothing. But I think politicians use the fraud, waste, abuse line to justify spending without raising taxes (or lowing taxes without cutting spending) and it never works. It's a line used for people to feel good about spending money and not off-setting it.

Both sides use this rationale and have for decades. I doubt they will stop and I doubt the public will get wise to it.

Absolutely

 

[DANC]

True. If I were a dictator our policy during high inflation would be higher taxes (mostly on wealthy AND less government spending).

During downturns, lower taxes (mostly on wealthy) and increased government spending.

When the economy is going good, neutral.

I lose Republicans on half, Democrats on half. So no way it happens.

Yes, I am a Keynesian.

Do you remember the Luxury Tax back in the 90s? That was a tax on the wealthy, too.

Guess what happened - all the luxury boat manufacturers went out of business and caused big unemployment in the industry. And it wasn't the owners who suffered.

Try to learn from history instead of going with your ideology.

 

[DANC]

Reagan didn't have a debt ceiling problem. He just kicked the can down the road by borrowing against taxpayers' future earnings to pay for 1980s spending. Didn't solve any problems then, and it won't now.

We're just getting to the part where we have to pay for Reagan's tax cuts. And we don't like it.

Anybody can put a party on a credit card, unless the balance is maxed out.

lmao. The deficits in the 80s were miniscule compared today. Not in any way comparable.

 

[DANC]

Let us know when you find some.

President Trump’s Regulatory Relief Helps All Americans – The White House

trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov

 

[DANC]

Reagan didn't have a debt ceiling problem. He just kicked the can down the road by borrowing against taxpayers' future earnings to pay for 1980s spending. Didn't solve any problems then, and it won't now.

We're just getting to the part where we have to pay for Reagan's tax cuts. And we don't like it.

Anybody can put a party on a credit card, unless the balance is maxed out.

PS Thanks to a Republican Congress and Clinton, who agreed to work with it, we got a balanced budget by 2000.

So, sure, all our problems now are Reagan tax cuts from more than 35 years ago.

 

[Cthulhu85]

Would the states do inspections? Or just leave the businesses alone?

I would point you to The Jungle for an example of what might happen.

They already do. States have their own regulatory agencies that meet federal standards. Indiana has the Board of animal Health. They are responsible for inspection of intrastate food products. USDA inspects interstate.

There is a cooperative inspection program companies can apply for to avoid continuous usda inspection and only have intermittent inspection. These USDA inpectors make $100,000 plus a year. Could save quite a bit putting all companies under cooperative inspection and eliminating a few USDA inspector positions per state.

 

[Sope Creek]

They already do. States have their own regulatory agencies that meet federal standards. Indiana has the Board of animal Health. They are responsible for inspection of intrastate food products. USDA inspects interstate.

There is a cooperative inspection program companies can apply for to avoid continuous usda inspection and only have intermittent inspection. These USDA inpectors make $100,000 plus a year. Could save quite a bit putting all companies under cooperative inspection and eliminating a few USDA inspector positions per state.

What are the risks of a contaminated product from cooperative inspection? Seems to me that we've had a spate of bad product, from infant formula to meat, to vegetables. Maybe continuous protection is necessary?

 

[Sope Creek]

Start with HHS and healthcare. An encyclopedia of waste and fraud

Have at it. It's your burden to tackle. I ain't willing to do your work for you.

 

[Sope Creek]

lmao. The deficits in the 80s were miniscule compared today. Not in any way comparable.

. . . and yet you want to cut taxes now. From your post #40:

Encourage the supply side by cutting taxes and regulations and inflation will come down without crashing the economy and we can handle current interest rates. (Emphasis mine.)

LMAO.

 

[DANC]

. . . and yet you want to cut taxes now. From your post #40:

Encourage the supply side by cutting taxes and regulations and inflation will come down without crashing the economy and we can handle current interest rates. (Emphasis mine.)

LMAO.

A history lesson would help you, if you bothered to pay attention.

 

[Sope Creek]

A history lesson would help you, if you bothered to pay attention.

. . . you're a functional idiot when it comes to economics and history.

 

[DANC]

. . . you're a functional idiot when it comes to economics and history.

My Econ and History double majors disagree with you.

Why would you say that when it's been proved to be successful? I didn't say just cut taxes. I said monetary and fiscal policies have to work together. You know - like under Reagan. Maybe you were too busy playing with your bong when Reagan was President.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Have at it. It's your burden to tackle. I ain't willing to do your work for you.

It’s not my burden. I will say that there’s a common theme that gives rise to much of the waste and fraud: tracking/vetting. They need more unclemarks and Marv’s. Whether it’s lost military shipments, cdc unable to track infections, payouts to ineligible food stamp recipients, or Medicare fraud tracking seems to be the most prevalent issue

 

[Univee2]

PS Thanks to a Republican Congress and Clinton, who agreed to work with it, we got a balanced budget by 2000.

So, sure, all our problems now are Reagan tax cuts from more than 35 years ago.

Just a quick look at CBO and other fed fiscal sites:

Federal revenues:

2021 - $4.0 trillion
2022 - $4.9 trillion
2023 (projected) - $4.8 trillion

We seemed to have jumped up 20% since just 2021. Didn’t go back further to see a longer trend, so this is similar to saying that IU’s 3-point percentage improved from around 33% to around 37% this past season.

I think it does highlight that it’s difficult to say we just have a revenue problem and we need to impose a hefty tax increase on business and high-income individuals. Unfortunately, we have no inclination to have serious discussions about putting some brakes on spending. There’s a lot of blathering from both sides in Washington but nothing ever really gets done, just as with Social Security and Medicare.

Deficits will continue to be huge and the debt will continue to grow, just like my bride’s shoe collection. It’s just an unrelenting force of nature . . .

 

[larsIU]

It’s not my burden. I will say that there’s a common theme that gives rise to much of the waste and fraud: tracking/vetting. They need more unclemarks and Marv’s. Whether it’s lost military shipments, cdc unable to track infections, payouts to ineligible food stamp recipients, or Medicare fraud tracking seems to be the most prevalent issue

I've heard the systems used to track government expenditures (especially entitlements) are archaic, and that's being nice. I assume they're updating as fast as Congress will give them funding to do so, but it's actually getting to be a security issue beyond just the waste that comes from not being able to accurately track all the money, people, regs, etc. that are involved.

I can't imagine the size of the project required to actually get core government applications to talk to one another across platforms. 10 years minimum I bet.

 

[Sope Creek]

My Econ and History double majors disagree with you.

Why would you say that when it's been proved to be successful? I didn't say just cut taxes. I said monetary and fiscal policies have to work together. You know - like under Reagan. Maybe you were too busy playing with your bong when Reagan was President.

Interesting. I have a double major in economics and history too . . . and I was studying economics and history right before Reagan became president. You never said anything about monetary policy. You mentioned "regulations".

I would agree with you that some form of stimulus right now would be good, except for the little pesky problem with inflation and the debt. I don't think people with real money are willing to lend the US government their money right now. Why? Because of the debt. They fear not getting paid.

Borrowing against the future has paid for every tax cut we've had . . . including the Reagan cuts, W's cuts and the Trump cuts from 2017, when the economy was rolling along fine . . . no stimulus was needed. This is in addition to the borrowing to pay for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, plus the pandemic stimulus (both of them), funding for the Ukraine support and other spending.

What Reagan and Voelker did in 1980 ain't applicable to now . . . because we've "starved the beast" too much already. The debt won't allow it.

Remember, Kennedy proposed cutting taxes, too. And in 1964 federal taxes went from a 91% highest tax rate to 70%. That stimulated the economy fine . . . .

Oh, and I don't smoke pot. Never did. You must have me confused with other Coolerites.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I've heard the systems used to track government expenditures (especially entitlements) are archaic, and that's being nice. I assume they're updating as fast as Congress will give them funding to do so, but it's actually getting to be a security issue beyond just the waste that comes from not being able to accurately track all the money, people, regs, etc. that are involved.

I can't imagine the size of the project required to actually get core government applications to talk to one another across platforms. 10 years minimum I bet.

Yeah I have no idea but what you write makes sense and is in keeping with the inspector reports across the big agencies

 

[Sope Creek]

Just a quick look at CBO and other fed fiscal sites:

Federal revenues:

2021 - $4.0 trillion
2022 - $4.9 trillion
2023 (projected) - $4.8 trillion

We seemed to have jumped up 20% since just 2021. Didn’t go back further to see a longer trend, so this is similar to saying that IU’s 3-point percentage improved from around 33% to around 37% this past season.

I think it does highlight that it’s difficult to say we just have a revenue problem and we need to impose a hefty tax increase on business and high-income individuals. Unfortunately, we have no inclination to have serious discussions about putting some brakes on spending. There’s a lot of blathering from both sides in Washington but nothing ever really gets done, just as with Social Security and Medicare.

Deficits will continue to be huge and the debt will continue to grow, just like my bride’s shoe collection. It’s just an unrelenting force of nature . . .

I must've missed where IU won a natty this year.

We have both a spending problem and a revenue problem if the income ain't enough to cover our obligations and spending. What to do about those is a matter for policy.

What were the revenues as a % of GDP might be a better take. If the economy is growing more than the tax revenues, then we might be "starving the beast" too much.

 

[Sope Creek]

It’s not my burden. I will say that there’s a common theme that gives rise to much of the waste and fraud: tracking/vetting. They need more unclemarks and Marv’s. Whether it’s lost military shipments, cdc unable to track infections, payouts to ineligible food stamp recipients, or Medicare fraud tracking seems to be the most prevalent issue

It sure ain't mine.

Not sure why you would want me to do that. I figure that it ought to belong to someone claiming it's a problem . . . i.e., you.

 

[Sope Creek]

I've heard the systems used to track government expenditures (especially entitlements) are archaic, and that's being nice. I assume they're updating as fast as Congress will give them funding to do so, but it's actually getting to be a security issue beyond just the waste that comes from not being able to accurately track all the money, people, regs, etc. that are involved.

I can't imagine the size of the project required to actually get core government applications to talk to one another across platforms. 10 years minimum I bet.

Yeah, when I was at Delta, getting the systems to talk to each other - hell, just having a common platform - was daunting. Delta hired a consultant, who told the board that not only did the systems not talk to each other, but that the overlays of transparencies (this was back in the 90s, when we used transparencies for board presentations) of the various systems Delta used would be completely opaque. This is because each project leader could choose which platform to use - Mac, MS, MS-DOS, Cobol, Fortran, MVS, VM/370, etc.

The consultant took a year to straighten out that mess. And that was one company, doing a consistent activity - being an airline.

10 years for the federal government? You're an optimist . . . .

 

[larsIU]

Yeah, when I was at Delta, getting the systems to talk to each other - hell, just having a common platform - was daunting. Delta hired a consultant, who told the board that not only did the systems not talk to each other, but that the overlays of transparencies (this was back in the 90s, when we used transparencies for board presentations) of the various systems Delta used would be completely opaque. This is because each project leader could choose which platform to use - Mac, MS, MS-DOS, Cobol, Fortran, MVS, VM/370, etc.

The consultant took a year to straighten out that mess. And that was one company, doing a consistent activity - being an airline.

10 years for the federal government? You're an optimist . . . .

they should just ask ChatGPT for its opinion and a plan.



Maybe ChatGPT could replace Congr.....nevermind.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I’m not sure giving more money to the gov makes much sense. Inefficient. Inept. Dumb ideas. Etc. I’m not sure giving more money to the wealthy does either. Trickle down economics is a failed proposition. I don’t know what the answer is anymore. I think we learned from the pandemic that guaranteed income does give rise to inflation. I don’t know that reparations make much sense either for inflationary and other reasons. I also suspect that if we followed IGW and took all the wealth in the world and divided it equally within a generation it’d be redistributed about like it is now. I’d be out there spending mine like jethro bodine while others would be investing etc

interesting how easy out and out lying comes for economic conservatives.

that said, they'd be up sht creek without it, so there is that.

 

[Spartans9312]

Establish Caps on Federal Spending for Medicaid | Congressional Budget Office

Medicaid is a joint federal-state program that pays for health care services for low-income people in various demographic groups, chiefly families with dependent children, elderly people (people over the age of 65), nonelderly people with disabilities, and—at the discretion of individual...

www.cbo.gov

 

[DANC]

Interesting. I have a double major in economics and history too . . . and I was studying economics and history right before Reagan became president. You never said anything about monetary policy. You mentioned "regulations".

I would agree with you that some form of stimulus right now would be good, except for the little pesky problem with inflation and the debt. I don't think people with real money are willing to lend the US government their money right now. Why? Because of the debt. They fear not getting paid.

Borrowing against the future has paid for every tax cut we've had . . . including the Reagan cuts, W's cuts and the Trump cuts from 2017, when the economy was rolling along fine . . . no stimulus was needed. This is in addition to the borrowing to pay for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, plus the pandemic stimulus (both of them), funding for the Ukraine support and other spending.

What Reagan and Voelker did in 1980 ain't applicable to now . . . because we've "starved the beast" too much already. The debt won't allow it.

Remember, Kennedy proposed cutting taxes, too. And in 1964 federal taxes went from a 91% highest tax rate to 70%. That stimulated the economy fine . . . .

Oh, and I don't smoke pot. Never did. You must have me confused with other Coolerites.

I'm not advocating a massive tax cut. I'm talking about business tax cuts, which will spur production. We can beat inflation the hard way, which is what the Fed (I'll be kind and not mention Carter) by raising interest rates throught the roof and kill the economy, or, as I mentioned, have a coordinated monetary and fiscal policy (I thought I mentioned monetary, but maybe I said the Fed).

As far as starving the beast, we haven't even begun to do that when compared to 1980-81 interest rates. I'm also amused by 'the debt won't allow it'. lmao. When has the debt ever held any Congress back in the last 20 years from spending whatever the hell they want to spend?

Look at federal revenue over the last 40 years and tell me we're paying a high price for tax cuts.

 

[Lucy01]

I'm not advocating a massive tax cut. I'm talking about business tax cuts, which will spur production. We can beat inflation the hard way, which is what the Fed (I'll be kind and not mention Carter) by raising interest rates throught the roof and kill the economy, or, as I mentioned, have a coordinated monetary and fiscal policy (I thought I mentioned monetary, but maybe I said the Fed).

As far as starving the beast, we haven't even begun to do that when compared to 1980-81 interest rates. I'm also amused by 'the debt won't allow it'. lmao. When has the debt ever held any Congress back in the last 20 years from spending whatever the hell they want to spend?

Look at federal revenue over the last 40 years and tell me we're paying a high price for tax cuts.

Why am I paying more in taxes? So our government can give more money to Ukraine! Other than strippers, what has Ukraine done for America?

 

[DANC]

Why am I paying more in taxes? So our government can give more money to Ukraine! Other than strippers, what has Ukraine done for America?

Right now, they're holding the line and keeping Russia from running over our other NATO allies on their border.

The taxes you're paying has nothing to do with Ukraine.

 

[Lucy01]

Right now, they're holding the line and keeping Russia from running over our other NATO allies on their border.

The taxes you're paying has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Come on Danc

 

[DANC]

Come on Danc

Where are we going?

 

[Lucy01]

Where are we going?

To Hell if we don’t change our ways .

 

[DANC]

To Hell if we don’t change our ways .

You sound like my mom

 

[Cthulhu85]

What are the risks of a contaminated product from cooperative inspection? Seems to me that we've had a spate of bad product, from infant formula to meat, to vegetables. Maybe continuous protection is necessary?

None. Its probably better. The state is responsible for most of the inspection duties. Usda just shows up slaps a label on before shipment.

You would think that usda is better not knowing what continousl inspection actually is. It's a walk through every 2 hours and the usda inspector napping in between. If people saw where most of their food is produced they probably wouldn't eat it. It's surprising their aren't more contamination issues than there already are.

I'm in pharmaceuticals now. I worked in the egg industry in microbiology and now in pharmaceuticals in micro. Much more regulated and sanitary. But if you regulated food like pharma it would be much more expensive. Part of the reason pharmaceuticals are so expensive is regulation and R&D on drugs for rare diseases.

Big government mostly fails where states can do better. Smaller is more efficient and effective almost every time.