Bingo.
Now, here's the real mind twister.
What if someone kills a woman and her baby while the woman was on the way to a clinic to kill her baby anyway?
"A 'less crunchy' way to get body parts."
- Thread starter Univee2
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Bingo.
Now, here's the real mind twister.
What if someone kills a woman and her baby while the woman was on the way to a clinic to kill her baby anyway?
Depends on how the law is written in any particular state, but I think that would be a homicide in every single state that recognizes feticide as such. It's a messy legal quagmire I think we'd be smart to avoid.
I'd much prefer the creation of a separate cause of action on behalf of the putative mother than a criminal homicide charge.
Thank you for replying. You and I are of similar minds. I find the blithe response of many, and the blinkered reaction of much of the media, just another indicator of our continuing decline and debasement as a society.
"What's your problem with it?" Might as well have been muttered by Joseph Mengele. What's a decades-long Holocaust among friends?
How the "party of science" can so cavalierly ignore that every fetus is a unique human, with unique DNA that no one among the billions that have come before has or will possess, is beyond comprehension. And now we have the butchers of Planned Parenthood, over a nice, subtle Red, discussing the proper dismemberment and proper squeezing techniques with all the dispassion with which they might discuss nail polish removal techniques. The inhumanity is shocking but, sadly, not surprising. We've devolved.
And, remember, it's not a head, it's a calvarium.
And that's not a heart ....
Or eyes ...
Or .....
Did you read the whole thread or just the parts you liked? I already responded to everything you say here.
If there's nothing wrong it,why not make it an industry?
Take some poor women who have the right to choose what to do with their bodies, pay them to get knocked up and have abortions, then "harvest" the "tissue" "for science"?
How could anyone possibly object?
Why is an accidental pregnancy-abortion-tissue harvest different than an intentional pregnancy-abortion-tissue harvest?
Maybe even pay the dad to waive his parental rights? (Spread the wealth. Doesn't fairness demand the parents get a Lamborghini too?)
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Yeah, cause it was the editing and the profit angle that made it sound so inhuman and horrible and depraved and immoral.
Editing and profit.
Does it every time.
Question - is the lemonade free in the Moral Abyss, or is it a profit deal?
Yeah, cause it was the editing and the profit angle that made it sound so inhuman and horrible and depraved and immoral.
Editing and profit.
Does it every time.
Question - is the lemonade free in the Moral Abyss, or is it a profit deal?
So, all of your non-responsive snark aside...what was the part of scientific research covering the costs of storage and transportation of tissue from aborted fetuses voluntarily given to scientific research that made it sound so inhuman and horrible and depraved and immoral? Is it your objection to abortion in general, to the tone the PP executive took, or to the fact that science uses tissue for research?
Yes.
I object to the further decline in the recognition of the sanctity of human life.
On the other hand, if you are willing to sell me the bodies of your parents and grandparents, I think I can make a profit selling them to medical schools, and I REALLY need the money.
Any objection?
Or maybe I can just dig up a few "fresh" ones after a funeral. If you do it right, the family will never even know.
"Never waste good tissue!"
That's my motto.
PS - "Snark can make a great point." Signed Samuel "Snark Twain" Clemens
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How does using the tissue for science further decline the recognition of the sanctity of human life? Are you against all donations of human tissue for science or just this particular kind?
Just like with PP, I wouldn't give them to you to make a profit, but I'd be happy to donate the tissue to science. It's fine by me if everybody knows since it's voluntary.
P.S. Snark can make a good point when it reflects the facts. Since yours doesn't, it makes you look like you're howling at the moon.
That fact check piece is crap
Anybody who has done a modicum of cost accounting knows full well that you cannot determine the costs and expenses of fetal tissue harvesting to PP based upon what is an alleged market custom about price.
To get around the legal restrictions on selling these body parts for profit, EVERYBODY in the industry talks about "shipping and handling" charges and other expenses to hide the profit and the significant compensation of the principles.
One of the largest human tissue brokers in the country, which has a business relationship with Planned Parenthood, is continually looking for body part suppliers they call "partners" even going so far as suggesting a partnership arrangement can "profitable".
Bottom line is that there is big bucks in fetal-tissue bio-tech and the demand for raw materials, like fetal livers, exceeds supply.
That post of yours is a piece of crap.
The fact check piece that you trash addressed your groundbreaking news about Planned Parenthood's business relationship with StemExpress. It talked to people who actually deal in human tissue acquisition and explored the unedited video in detail. And in response you offered...your own unsubstantiated "expert" opinion.
Upon reflection, I apologize to crap because it's offensive to crap to compare your effort here to it.
Look
I have no problem with using fetal tissue for research. That is much better than a dumpster or a medical waste disposal company. My issue the disingenuous of PP. PP and its sycophants freakout whenever cutting their funding is brought up, and I followed that debate kinda carefully. At no time did PP ever talk about revenue from selling the dead fetuses. I know that medical waste disposal companies charge a lot for their services. So PP is saving that expense and turning an expense into revenue. But at the center of this is the patient, not Planned Parenthood. I don't know why all the left wingers leap to PP's defense, even to the extent Fact Check.Org coming out with a very weak drive-by opinion. As I have consistently said throughout all health care issues, the patient should be in total informed control; not some institution like PP. If PP really has a cozy relationship with tissue brokers like Stemexpress, then patients need to know that as they weigh the counseling PP delivers to the patient. The best thing is for PP to not take ANY revenue from tissue brokers so that there is no issue of financial conflicts.
Even in the videos posted this past week, it's stated very clearly PP does not make a profit selling tissue. They try to recoup their costs, and that's it.
You know that means nothing, don't you?
PP is a 501(c) non-profit. EVERY revenue item is treated as expense reimbursement. Revenue in excess of expenses is treated as reserves or retained earnings--never as profit.
I wasn't talking about bookkeeping. I was talking about what they actually said in those videos, and what everyone else has said in every article about those videos. The $30-100 range is standard for covering costs. It's not a money-maker.
This is faux outrage. It's just code for "Abortion is wrong." Which I have no problem with, but just say that. This whole thing is completely dishonest.
Eh . . . .
No doubt the "abortion is wrong" people will be outraged with the statements in these videos. But that isn't my issue. Mine is as I've mentioned a few times now, I think PP is dishonest with the public, and more importantly, dishonest with their patients--to whom they have the very highest fiduciary duty of care. "Standard prices" are not a material part of this issue and is simply a red herring.
And you draw these conclusions about PP based on....what exactly?
In this supposedly damning videos, the people in question clearly state that they aren't trying to turn a profit and that the care of their patients is paramount.
"Standard prices" are not a red herring. They are a key issue. PP wants to recoup some of its costs associated with preserving the tissues. Preserving them costs more than disposing of them. These "standard prices" help them deal with some of that extra cost.
Just a thought you guys may want to pull up PP last Annual Report I found it interesting, Revenues exceeded Expenses in the past fiscal period by 127.1M.....great BS I think I am in the wrong industry.
Also I am not replying to anyone specifically, fyi.
Also not to be crude but is this a one to one or are multiple samples taken from one fetus, my educated guess thinking it though is the cost or expense would be negligible but I admit I could be wrong.
Also did not watch the video just read the thread.
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Also I am not replying to anyone specifically, fyi.
Also not to be crude but is this a one to one or are multiple samples taken from one fetus, my educated guess thinking it though is the cost or expense would be negligible but I admit I could be wrong.
Also did not watch the video just read the thread.
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I am not a doctor, but I doubt you can just throw human tissue in the beer fridge. There are costs.
Well said! Anyone that can look at a picture of a 12 week old fetus and matter of factly talk about crunching it the right way to sell its body parts isn't human in my mind. It a sad indictment on the state of our country. Of course some lives do matter but you have to be very careful that you distinguish which ones do if you make a statement. If you make the mistake and say all lives matter you're booed off the stage.
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Well whatever is my response to your response, I am a cost accountant, PP is a medical provider the resources to store would all ready be in place, the costs would be minimally incremental in nature. Also worked in a hospital in a prior life.
Your snide beer fridge snark was dismissive but not unexpected. If this is a worth while endeavor then PP by their own financials could afford to donate the tissue free of charge but of course that would be...........silly or too compassionate or too human?
Have a nice day.
Your snide beer fridge snark was dismissive but not unexpected. If this is a worth while endeavor then PP by their own financials could afford to donate the tissue free of charge but of course that would be...........silly or too compassionate or too human?
Have a nice day.
After they were caught selling the body parts they had to make it less offensive by saying they're making no profit. It's really laughable. Just have the courage to say what you're doing.
Goat- "This is faux outrage. It's just code for "Abortion is wrong." Which I have no problem with, but just say that. This whole thing is completely dishonest."
You've made a statement in the past to the effect of- "conservatives wanting to cut back on welfare is unfair to the honest decent people who need it and rely on it. It's inhumane to treat ppl like that".
And I don't really take issue with that. In fact, I agree with it. But how can you be ok with crushing heads and legs and hearts. How is that not inhumane?
I truly believe life in all forms is precious and should be protected, including the disabled, the needy, the old, the poor....and the defenseless unborn.
Other people draw the line a bit more "inhumanely".
You've made a statement in the past to the effect of- "conservatives wanting to cut back on welfare is unfair to the honest decent people who need it and rely on it. It's inhumane to treat ppl like that".
And I don't really take issue with that. In fact, I agree with it. But how can you be ok with crushing heads and legs and hearts. How is that not inhumane?
I truly believe life in all forms is precious and should be protected, including the disabled, the needy, the old, the poor....and the defenseless unborn.
Other people draw the line a bit more "inhumanely".
"All life"? You believe that terrorists lives are precious and that we should stop the drone strikes? Did you believe that Iraqi civilian lives were precious and that maybe we shouldn't have gotten thousands of them killed by invading a country that never attacked us? Are you for the death penalty? I'm just curious how you define "all life".
Let's clean the industry up a little.
Test tube babies created with purchased semen and eggs.
Manufactured uterus's to grow the "tissue".
Lab harvests instead of abortion clinic harvests.
Err'body feel better about it now?
Let's get it on.
If it feels good, do it.
Make love - not war.
War is bad for babies and other living things.
Three generations of imbeciles are enough.
I am become death.
Test tube babies created with purchased semen and eggs.
Manufactured uterus's to grow the "tissue".
Lab harvests instead of abortion clinic harvests.
Err'body feel better about it now?
Let's get it on.
If it feels good, do it.
Make love - not war.
War is bad for babies and other living things.
Three generations of imbeciles are enough.
I am become death.
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I consider myself fiscally conservative and moderate to liberal on social issues. I think it's a gross misstatement to say conservatives want to cut back on welfare to take it away from honest decent people who need it and rely on it. I want a safety net to help people who truly need it. I also want to help those same people to be self sufficient and not be dependent on welfare. I want people who are abusing welfare to be kicked off and prosecuted if appropriate.
Good questions superhoosier.
A murderer and an unborn child are situations I do view a little differently. If killing a terrorist prevents a child or defenseless human being from being killed, ok.
I'm with you on the Iraqi civilians.
The death penalty is a tough one. I want to say no I don't favor it. But I'm far less likely to stir up a fuss about a mass murderer getting the needle than a defenseless child getting its skull crushed.
Mike, that's not what I'm arguing here. I'm arguing specifically whether or not PP is selling tissues for profit. They are not. They are following the law. This outrage is all manufactured by people whose real problem isn't tissue sales, but the abortion itself. The response of many here, including you, makes it clear that it is the abortion that is the problem. That's fine. I have no problem with that argument. But defend it honestly instead of releasing deceptively edited tapes and creating mangled arguments about tissue sales.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
A little honesty wouldn't hurt your argument either.
Even the PP officials don't claim the commodity sold is simply "tissue". They go to particular and specific lengths to position the fetus and then carefully bring it out through the vaginal canal in a manner to preserve the vital organs. PP then sells livers, hearts, lungs, etc. That is where the money is. Not in random "tissue".
"Fetal tissue" is a technical term. It's the term used in the 1993 law that regulates this activity.
You can keep repeating your assertions that this is a money-making operation all you want, but it's not true. Even if they wanted to make a lot of money off of fetal tissues, they couldn't, because the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, and the organs aren't developed enough to be valuable.
Even in the edited version of the video, the PP rep makes it clear that patient safety comes first, and they couldn't change the procedure used without the patient's consent.
For those who think PP is just about abortions are either selecting what they want to hear, or have no clue whatsoever. Ask the residents of Scott county. They just went through the worst HIV outbreak in the history of the state. The PP office was closed a couple years ago, and with that went the free STD training.
Also, they provide birth control, both internal and external, to all sorts of women who choose to make a decision on when they would like to have a child. Side note---I've never understood the argument against birth control. That is one of the dumbest fights there is. One, just because a woman (or couple) want to choose when they would like to have a child, that doesn't make the woman a slut as Rush would state, that makes someone responsible.
Last, and most important, abortion should not be used as birth control. There are times where it is necessary.
Whichever side of the fence you are on, PP funding should not be cut. Especially in response to heavily edited videos and idiots on tv/radio/internet.
PS, isn't IU supposed to be the liberal one?
Also, they provide birth control, both internal and external, to all sorts of women who choose to make a decision on when they would like to have a child. Side note---I've never understood the argument against birth control. That is one of the dumbest fights there is. One, just because a woman (or couple) want to choose when they would like to have a child, that doesn't make the woman a slut as Rush would state, that makes someone responsible.
Last, and most important, abortion should not be used as birth control. There are times where it is necessary.
Whichever side of the fence you are on, PP funding should not be cut. Especially in response to heavily edited videos and idiots on tv/radio/internet.
PS, isn't IU supposed to be the liberal one?
I haven't seen anyone come out against birth control in this thread. I'm not sure why that's part of your rant. Maybe I missed the post that specified that. I think it's been made pretty clear what people are opposed to here.
And I do agree with you that abortion should not be used as birth control.
What does that mean, really? "Abortion shouldn't be used as birth control?"
It means if you don't want a child, act responsibly. Cmon goat, you know what it means.
It's Friday and I'm about to unplug for the weekend. I don't really want to rehash moral opinions that we've both already stated quite clearly in this thread. My point in the previous post was that I agree with the funding for birth control. Education about the subject goes a long way in helping this issue.
