A call for radical reactionaries

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I found this article interesting. It's well-written (easy to read and to understand) and thought provoking. I doubt anyone will read it and agree with all of it or find everything terribly off-base.

Who will stand against Progress?

We need reactionary radicals more than ever

unherd.com

Circling back to some past discussions of the Amish, one can see this as a partial explanation for, and maybe justification of, their way of life. But it cover much more ground than that, including a critique of both liberalism and conservatism (as modernly understood).

 

[Marvin the Martian]

When does progress go too far? I read the book Moonwalking with Einstein on the world memory championships. The book points out that all the old religious texts were memorized, writing them down certainly came with controversy.

Some certainly opposed the train, the auto, the end of slavery, the acceptance of interracial marriage, the vote of women. If we assume all those were good, how do we know if today's progress is too far?

 

[larsIU]

When does progress go too far? I read the book Moonwalking with Einstein on the world memory championships. The book points out that all the old religious texts were memorized, writing them down certainly came with controversy.

Some certainly opposed the train, the auto, the end of slavery, the acceptance of interracial marriage, the vote of women. If we assume all those were good, how do we know if today's progress is too far?

I don’t think progress is necessarily good nor bad. It’s just a further understanding of something at a level beyond our previous understanding. Take atomic energy. It is neither good nor bad.

How humans use it can, though, be both.

The internal combustion engine was progress though I’m sure the trees and animals don’t think so. Or future generations cleaning up the mess.

C’est la vie.

 

[Crayfish57]

I think it has reached a point on some fronts where it isn't good. One example, GPS was likely good for farming but progressed to John Deere being able to shut down a 500,000 piece of equipment you paid for in a field .

 

[mcmurtry66]

When does progress go too far? I read the book Moonwalking with Einstein on the world memory championships. The book points out that all the old religious texts were memorized, writing them down certainly came with controversy.

Some certainly opposed the train, the auto, the end of slavery, the acceptance of interracial marriage, the vote of women. If we assume all those were good, how do we know if today's progress is too far?

When our dolls kill us. #megan #chucky

 

[NPT]

When does progress go too far? I read the book Moonwalking with Einstein on the world memory championships. The book points out that all the old religious texts were memorized, writing them down certainly came with controversy.

Some certainly opposed the train, the auto, the end of slavery, the acceptance of interracial marriage, the vote of women. If we assume all those were good, how do we know if today's progress is too far?

First you have to define "Progress". What you call progress may not be the same as what I would consider progress.

 

[larsIU]

When our dolls kill us. #megan #chucky

Honestly I’m a bit concerned about AI. Not that it will spawn T-1000s burrowing through time but that it will further erode the usefulness of wide swaths of human activity, especially economic activity, etc.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Honestly I’m a bit concerned about AI. Not that it will spawn T-1000s burrowing through time but that it will further erode the usefulness of wide swaths of human activity, especially economic activity, etc.

yeah for sure. just think of your old world. what was that program called? abacus or something? it's not that far of a stretch to where you'd have a formula and ai for lawyer and adjuster garbage. the emotional is largely either bullshit or disregarded anyway. soft tissue or real. did you miss work or not. how many days. what would you have been paid. did you actually have surgery or just using your words to pretend you need it down the road even tho we all know you're never getting it. What are your med bills. What did insurance pay

ai could replace so much shit

 

[TMFT]

Honestly I’m a bit concerned about AI. Not that it will spawn T-1000s burrowing through time but that it will further erode the usefulness of wide swaths of human activity, especially economic activity, etc.

Fusion power and advanced AI automation will usher in a whole new world. Universal Basic Income will be coming eventually.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Fusion power and advanced AI automation will usher in a whole new world. Universal Basic Income will be coming eventually.

Guaranteed. Universal is dumb

 

[TMFT]

Guaranteed. Universal is dumb

It’s dumb now. But if there are literally no jobs that aren’t replaced by machines, that’ll be it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s dumb now. But if there are literally no jobs that aren’t replaced by machines, that’ll be it.

no guaranteed is means tested. universal means everyone gets it. there's no reason for musk to get a check for $1,800 a month. but yes i agree with you. if a significant number of human jobs are replaced i don't see any other choice

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s dumb now. But if there are literally no jobs that aren’t replaced by machines, that’ll be it.

Can you imagine what an absolute mess we’ll be as a society. Mailbox checks. Booze. Legal pot. Invest in streaming services, doordash, and video game creators

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Can you imagine what an absolute mess we’ll be as a society. Mailbox checks. Booze. Legal pot. Invest in streaming services, doordash, and video game creators

On the other hand, we could see the beginning of a new Renaissance. How many people have a wonderful novel, or sculpture, or piece of music, or work of architecture, or whatever, inside of them, if only they could find the time and energy after a long day of work to put in the effort?

Or perhaps all that free time gives rise to a new form of democracy, one in which large groups of people genuinely take an active role, not just in donating, or handing out flyers, or voting, but in participating in governance. Decision-making.

We are raised to find our value in our productivity. We measure our value by numbers on a paycheck. So the idea of erasing work naturally seems wrong to us. We're afraid of losing our value. But perhaps we can find our value another way.

(Not saying I believe any of that; just saying there are positive ways to look at the change.)

 

[mcmurtry66]

On the other hand, we could see the beginning of a new Renaissance. How many people have a wonderful novel, or sculpture, or piece of music, or work of architecture, or whatever, inside of them, if only they could find the time and energy after a long day of work to put in the effort?

yeah i love this bit. love love love it. the jaded part of me, which is nearly all of me, worries that inflation would just render guaranteed income a net nullity. so the guaranteed bump would just have to be supplemented with work for folks to meet their elevated nut

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

yeah i love this bit. love love love it. the jaded part of me, which is nearly all of me, worries that inflation would just render guaranteed income a net nullity. so the guaranteed bump would just have to be supplemented with work for folks to meet their elevated nut

I think in a post-scarcity type scenario, the economy will work very differently than it does now. I'm not sure we can even accurately predict how it will work. But it's at least possible that inflation will no longer be a thing. Even money itself may transform into something entirely unlike what it is now.

 

[Crayfish57]

no guaranteed is means tested. universal means everyone gets it. there's no reason for musk to get a check for $1,800 a month. but yes i agree with you. if a significant number of human jobs are replaced i don't see any other choice

That is not going to happen in our lifetimes . I say take safety warnings off everything, let nature take its course and weed out the weak. Amazing how many people will go through wood chippers

 

[mcmurtry66]

I think in a post-scarcity type scenario, the economy will work very differently than it does now. I'm not sure we can even accurately predict how it will work. But it's at least possible that inflation will no longer be a thing. Even money itself may transform into something entirely unlike what it is now.

well snarlcakes will appreciate your take on the evolution (devolution) of money. and i agree with cray that it won't happen in our lifetime. but i agree it's certainly plausible and i'm not sure how we could predict how it will work either. it would require a re-wiring of our dna, our values, how we're inculcated. all that shit. and i write this as i'm getting all my ducks in a row to go on a four month work marathon starting in the morning that i don't look forward to in the least. i'd rather work with hoosboot on mining a reality show out of this board

 

[TomEric4756]

When does progress go too far? I read the book Moonwalking with Einstein on the world memory championships. The book points out that all the old religious texts were memorized, writing them down certainly came with controversy.

Some certainly opposed the train, the auto, the end of slavery, the acceptance of interracial marriage, the vote of women. If we assume all those were good, how do we know if today's progress is too far?

Well, when ChatBot ‘oracles’ stop showing sources, Marv, we’ll be in a world of hurt. Critical thinking will be challenged when the ‘oracles’ missives are accepted as fact. There won’t be any facts to analyze for false premises, and other rhetorical fallacies.

 

[UncleMark]

On the other hand, we could see the beginning of a new Renaissance. How many people have a wonderful novel, or sculpture, or piece of music, or work of architecture, or whatever, inside of them, if only they could find the time and energy after a long day of work to put in the effort?

Or perhaps all that free time gives rise to a new form of democracy, one in which large groups of people genuinely take an active role, not just in donating, or handing out flyers, or voting, but in participating in governance. Decision-making.

We are raised to find our value in our productivity. We measure our value by numbers on a paycheck. So the idea of erasing work naturally seems wrong to us. We're afraid of losing our value. But perhaps we can find our value another way.

(Not saying I believe any of that; just saying there are positive ways to look at the change.)

You just transported me back to my dorm room in Wright Quad; a bong and some Boone's Farm and the future was bright.

 

[Crayfish57]

well snarlcakes will appreciate your take on the evolution (devolution) of money. and i agree with cray that it won't happen in our lifetime. but i agree it's certainly plausible and i'm not sure how we could predict how it will work either. it would require a re-wiring of our dna, our values, how we're inculcated. all that shit. and i write this as i'm getting all my ducks in a row to go on a four month work marathon starting in the morning that i don't look forward to in the least. i'd rather work with hoosboot on mining a reality show out of this board

I have been planning a reality show for years of life experiences and crazy people I have met along the way. This board is peanuts on interesting.

Things will change but I am seeing more and more values on older tractors and vehicles that can be worked on going up in value. I am in an area like Stoll with a lot of self sufficent people . In summer within a mile in two directions I can buy all my vegetables without going to a grocery store. I know its a larger question overall but one thing we all have to have is food at some point.

Universal income is communism and not seeing it happening .

A great reality show would be the Old order Mennonites that are prevelant around me. They would seem like Amish to most of you but aren't. They have so many small businesses around me and how they do things would be an eye opener. I could go within 10 miles and besides fuel buy all I need , get most any work I need done from auto repairs to machine shops to getting a new roof , other construction . produce, butcher shop , cheese and dairy , bakeries

 

[mcmurtry66]

I have been planning a reality show for years of life experiences and crazy people I have met along the way. This board is peanuts on interesting.

Things will change but I am seeing more and more values on older tractors and vehicles that can be worked on going up in value. I am in an area like Stoll with a lot of self sufficent people . In summer within a mile in two directions I can buy all my vegetables without going to a grocery store. I know its a larger question overall but one thing we all have to have is food at some point.

Universal income is communism and not seeing it happening .

A great reality show would be the Old order Mennonites that are prevelant around me. They would seem like Amish to most of you but aren't. They have so many small businesses around me and how they do things would be an eye opener. I could go within 10 miles and besides fuel buy all I need , get most any work I need done from auto repairs to machine shops to getting a new roof , other construction . produce, butcher shop , cheese and dairy , bakeries

If the chain stores around me were to close I would last minutes

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Well, when ChatBot ‘oracles’ stop showing sources, Marv, we’ll be in a world of hurt. Critical thinking will be challenged when the ‘oracles’ missives are accepted as fact. There won’t be any facts to analyze for false premises, and other rhetorical fallacies.

I fear we have hit upon that already.

But I still don't know how to differentiate good vs bad progress in advance. Seriously, I suspect writing was seen as destroying the ability to think.

 

[Crayfish57]

If the chain stores around me were to close I would last minutes

I know and a huge part of the population couldn't but there is also a large rural area that can and isn't going to be taken over overnight. Might be some lifestyle changes . It was crazy for a while at auctions seeing people buying fruit jars that didnt bring anything hoarding them to can stuff. Make fun of rural people all you want ( not meaning you just general) but there is a survival instinct which you alluded to in a way that isnt going away in just a few years.

 

[larsIU]

On the other hand, we could see the beginning of a new Renaissance. How many people have a wonderful novel, or sculpture, or piece of music, or work of architecture, or whatever, inside of them, if only they could find the time and energy after a long day of work to put in the effort?

Or perhaps all that free time gives rise to a new form of democracy, one in which large groups of people genuinely take an active role, not just in donating, or handing out flyers, or voting, but in participating in governance. Decision-making.

We are raised to find our value in our productivity. We measure our value by numbers on a paycheck. So the idea of erasing work naturally seems wrong to us. We're afraid of losing our value. But perhaps we can find our value another way.

(Not saying I believe any of that; just saying there are positive ways to look at the change.)

So, Star Trek?

You just transported me back to my dorm room in Wright Quad; a bong and some Boone's Farm and the future was bright.

Wilkey South for me. And MD 20/20.

 

[Spartans9312]

So, Star Trek?


Wilkey South for me. And MD 20/20.

Were you guys allergic to beer?

 

[UncleMark]

Were you guys allergic to beer?

You put the Boones Farm in the bong.

 

[Spartans9312]

You put the Boones Farm in the bong.

Lawdy

 

[mcmurtry66]

You put the Boones Farm in the bong.

My buddy used to be able to beer bong faster than anyone I’d ever seen. @snarlcakes same Texas nut. Anyway he could beat anyone. Just open his throat and gone. Never seen anything like it. Well this guy from a rival high school was “unbeatable.” He and my buddy went round after round. I’ll never forget it. My buddy goes “time to end this.” And like an hvac he beer bonged entire a six pack of Pepsi at once. The other goes F that. To his credit

 

[DANC]

On the other hand, we could see the beginning of a new Renaissance. How many people have a wonderful novel, or sculpture, or piece of music, or work of architecture, or whatever, inside of them, if only they could find the time and energy after a long day of work to put in the effort?

Or perhaps all that free time gives rise to a new form of democracy, one in which large groups of people genuinely take an active role, not just in donating, or handing out flyers, or voting, but in participating in governance. Decision-making.

We are raised to find our value in our productivity. We measure our value by numbers on a paycheck. So the idea of erasing work naturally seems wrong to us. We're afraid of losing our value. But perhaps we can find our value another way.

(Not saying I believe any of that; just saying there are positive ways to look at the change.)

Yeah, nice to dream, but we have plenty of history with 'guaranteed income' in the form of welfare payments, rent subsidies, SNAP, tax breaks, etc. It's not a pretty picture.

People are, by nature, lazy. Not all, of course. But enough that this society would turn into a nation of stoners pretty quickly. Good for the munchie industry, I guess.

 

[DANC]

So, Star Trek?


Wilkey South for me. And MD 20/20.

Oh, I wish you hadn't brought up Mad Dog..... now I feel nauseous.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah, nice to dream, but we have plenty of history with 'guaranteed income' in the form of welfare payments, rent subsidies, SNAP, tax breaks, etc. It's not a pretty picture.

People are, by nature, lazy. Not all, of course. But enough that this society would turn into a nation of stoners pretty quickly. Good for the munchie industry, I guess.

Big difference between welfare in a capitalist economy and "income" in a post-scarcity situation. I mean, probably. As McM and I already covered, we probably can't know what a post-scarcity economy - if that word would even be appropriate - would look like or work like.

 

[DANC]

Big difference between welfare in a capitalist economy and "income" in a post-scarcity situation. I mean, probably. As McM and I already covered, we probably can't know what a post-scarcity economy - if that word would even be appropriate - would look like or work like.

Human nature doesn't change. Hasn't since Adam and Eve.

 

[hoosboot]

I fear we have hit upon that already.

But I still don't know how to differentiate good vs bad progress in advance. Seriously, I suspect writing was seen as destroying the ability to think.

I get caught up in the minutia of this stuff, but I think people are arguing the difference between progress and change.

Most of the definitions I see of progress include advancement towards a goal - such as this definition from Merriam-Webster:

" to move forward : proceed. : to develop to a higher, better, or more advanced stage."

That sounds inherently good. Progress without advancement is merely change and whether it is progress or merely change is dependent on perspective.

</being pedantic>

 

[larsIU]

Were you guys allergic to beer?

The only thing I’m allergic to is Southern Comfort.

Definitely wasn’t comforted as I laid in my own vomit pondering my imminent death at 18.

You put the Boones Farm in the bong.

Wait. What kind of bong. Asking for a friend.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Human nature doesn't change. Hasn't since Adam and Eve.

Maybe it's not human nature. Maybe it's just the way we've all been trained to behave. Maybe our true nature is actually much better, and we just need to realize it.

 

[UncleMark]

Wait. What kind of bong. Asking for a friend.

I think you and McM are confusing things. I'm talking about a pot smoking bong. A water pipe type thing. I don't know WTF this beer bong thing is you might be talking about.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Maybe it's not human nature. Maybe it's just the way we've all been trained to behave. Maybe our true nature is actually much better, and we just need to realize it.

I wonder. DANC might be right. You might be right. For some reason my mind went to that coke bottle and the gods must be crazy

 

[UncleMark]

Maybe it's not human nature. Maybe it's just the way we've all been trained to behave. Maybe our true nature is actually much better, and we just need to realize it.

You broke out the good stuff tonight, didn't you?

 

[larsIU]

I think you and McM are confusing things. I'm talking about a pot smoking bong. A water pipe type thing. I don't know WTF this beer bong thing is you might be talking about.

I texted my friend and confirmed that, indeed, a water bong was the bong in question and that he preferred ice water as well.