Atleast Crean had the group of guards that could keep IU competitive. And also, why didnt IU get a return game with Auburn in Indy? I recall all the know it alls this summer saying it wasnt needed and this gets the IU name in Atlanta again. Welp the IU name is in Atlanta again, just not the way we wanted it. Shit show all around if there isnt a return game in Indy.
Who's sub pattern is worse? Creans or Woodsons!
- Thread starter GeorgeStrait IU
- Start date
That’s a tough one. Crean was manic, and would pull guys after they hit 2 shots in a row. And it killed our momentum tons of times during his time at IU. Woodson does the NBA 2nd unit approach, way too often.
I’d say Woodys is worse. At least with Crean he usually kept multiple starters on the floor while he was manically subbing every 45 seconds.
the ‘NBA 2nd unit approach” works….in the NBA. And the reason it works is that others do it. In other words, if at the x minute mark of the period we brought in a second unit, and so did our opponent, it would make sense.
The problem is, and here I’m speculating…..woody is doing something that other college teams don’t do, and imo he is doing it because he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else. It’s a gimmick.
After having gone, the ATL game was very weird from an IU admin perspective and it seemed as though Auburn took it seriously and IU didn't. They had a pep band and cheerleaders and the announcer was totally pro-Auburn, often making comments after a good play on their part "SWWWWISSSHHHHH! goes Auburn type stuff". There was even a small section opposite the Auburn band that was empty and I'm sure was earmarked for our pep band, but it looked like they did a far better job of planning than did IU. But, to answer your question, it was a "neutral" site game (even though it seemed IU allowed it not to be) so no return was really necessary to even it out.
You guys are nuts. Give Woodson Dipo, Zeller, Hulls, etc. and we don't lose to Butler on some stupid shit (taking Zeller out), we don't choke v Syracuse (and almost choke v Temple).
Don't even start the Crean thing, guys. You wanna know what bottom of the barrel is for IU bball? longing for the Crean era.
Don't even start the Crean thing, guys. You wanna know what bottom of the barrel is for IU bball? longing for the Crean era.
I certainly haven't any real idea as to the logic of no return game but is it possible we were in talks with Kentucky and needed to keep our schedule open? I imagine that is the game that UK will be replacing starting in 2025.
Either way, whether it be the substitution pattern, bad execution, lack of preparedness, not enough talent......whatever the excuse/reason is, the only thing that matters is the end result. So far, we've played a good team and an above average team, and we were smoked both times. Heck, against Auburn we were up 12 points almost halfway through the 1st half. Had the game tipped off at the 13 minute mark of the first half, we'd have lost by 40, in a 33min game!
Crean is probably my least favorite IU coach.
But I'm not sure I see anything, yet, that suggests we'd have gotten more out of that Dipo/Zeller group with Woody, than we did out of Crean. Two sweet 16's, and a B10 championship. LOTS of inconsistencies in Woody's program, so far. And its not like he hasn't had talent.
I know cracking the zone is what gets the most scrutiny in that Syracuse game. But to me, it was our defense that lost us that game. Syracuse got basically whatever they wanted in that game. We were taking the ball out of the net, and it allowed Syracuse to set their zone up. Everyone struggled against Syracuse's zone that year, in the half court. The last 2 teams to beat Syracuse, I believe, were Louisville and Michigan. Both those teams were able to get the game going faster by getting at least some stops, and then getting out in to transition.
Woody's teams haven't exactly been dialed in defensively, either. We might have struggled similarly in that game because of it.
The answer to our defensive and rebounding struggles requires our team to do what Woody apparently doesn't like to do. We need to play a zone. The fear of the zone is we'll end up giving up open 3-pointers but lord knows we do that ALONG with open drives to the basket. Keeping Ware and Reneau down low at least gives us top rim protection and puts us in position to rebound the ball better.
The coach also needs to get these guys attacking the boards. Watch what happens when any shot goes up.....even the shooter is walking backwards EVERY....TIME. So many times, had the shooter just stayed still, the ball bounced right back to them, but they were busy back pedaling towards mid-court. Their needs to be a concerted effort to change the mindset of this team after any shot to have 1-5 attacking the boards.
There are so many NBA corollaries at play... And obviously that's natural for Woody. But as we've seen, there are a lot of things that don't translate well down to college...and as a result, if he is still largely running things through an NBA coaching philosophy, and if he's planning on continuing to do so, we'll continue to see wide ranges in levels of play with his teams.
One of the biggest challenges college coaches face is molding unreliable teenagers to become reliable men. NBA coaches get the best of the best, and often times, most of them are already grown men. And when they do have teenagers that need molding, they have 8-10 grown men on the roster that end up doing most of the work. College programs might have a few good, older guys...but by and large, its much more of a head coach's responsibility and task.
I honestly worry if Woody is up for that challenge of getting teenagers to consistently play hard, and play the right way. He's never had to do it before. And he's not showing that he's all that good at it, so far.
The above comparison with the Cody/Vic team makes me wonder if we would have seen Victor become the player he did if he played under CMW. To be honest, player development other than TJD has not been especially notable. It's very different now with the portal, of course. Anyone not contributing by the end of the season is going to get recruited over from the portal. It's the way things are today like it or not.
The reason it works in the NBA is because you have a team filled with NBA talent! This IU team has perhaps one or two future NBA players.
It's not needed at the college level. Way less games and they only play 40 minutes. The NBA approach is to keep guys fresh during a grind of a season.
The argument Woody may have is his teams do seem to go on late season runs. Won 8 of last 10 games last year. 7 of last 10 years before The streaks haven't gone into the tournaments yet but that would be his case I'm guessing.
no way I'm missing CTC. But if bottom of barrel includes 2 B1G championships and three S16s over 6 yrs, ....I think we've found a level below the barrel's bottom .
To me, there are 2 kinds of coaches. The ones who mold their systems to maximize the talent on the roster, and coaches who mold their players to maximize their system. There are good coaches who know how to maintain a system and recruits talent that matches their preferred system. This method is fine and allows you to perfect the system, just as long as you're able to recruit the talent that affords you the ability to do that.
Regardless, in either instance, the end result would be success. If you're attempting either of those two models and not succeeding......well......
This is a valid argument which is why I say I refrain from finalizing a case against a coach until the seasons over or we're at a place where the only option to make the tournament is by winning the B1G tourney. That gives us a full view of what transpired and regardless of the pie in the sky wishes or the fans who want to quickly start trashing a coach based on a few games, it's the full portfolio that determines the value of the coach. MSU is known for starting a season 3-4, losing to all the good teams they've played and then somehow competing for a top 3-4 spot in the B1G and then making a run in the B1G tourney/NCAA tourney. It feels unconventional but success and failure is determined at seasons end.
The difference is crean had guys who could shoot. Both are bad but woodson has zero shooters and did not recruit any.
Right, and its on the coaches to recruit talent who will buy in. Create a foundation that cultivates an environment where the players want to buy-in. There are no restrictions around how its accomplished. Regardless, the end result of any method needs to be success and if not, there is no excuse for a lack of success. It all must land at the feet of the HC.
It may be but the is the last time we made a sweet sixeteen and until we do again its all we got
This is Woodson's philosophy. He thinks he needs to rest his players. He's been asked about it, doesn't seem likely to change. It is what we're going to see him do. Will it eventually pay off at the end of the season? Who knows. I doubt we beat Auburn or UConn if he left the starters in for 40 minutes either. They are just better teams.
Q: "Yeah coach, like you said, you got up 22-10 and after the starters came out, Auburn went on a 20-4 run. What there any thought of not taking Ware and Reneau and Mgbako out at the same time?''
WOODSON: "Was there any thought of me not taking them out? I kind of substitute pretty much the same way every game. You can't just burn them. Bottom line, when my starters got back in the game, it was close to a tied game. The same guys that were on the floor when we started the game went the other way. that was the difference in the ballgame. You can't play them for 40 minutes. You've got to play some of your bench guys, and I believe in my bench. I went to bench in the Michigan game, and that helped us win that game.''
Thing is ..Woodson isn't going to win two Big Ten championships..
No chance...
He won't see the end of his contract..Hell win a few games .Get guy's on here all giddy and post look what he's doing....
Then on selection Sunday no Indiana...
He typically tightens the rotation as the season winds down too. I expect the same this year. Guys like Sparks won't play nearly as much down the stretch. Only if really needed. Then the playing time he is getting now is very important.
My issue isn’t with resting players. It’s common in the college game for players to go to the bench. What’s not common is doing a mass substitution (4-5 players) all at once.
do you guys think Mike would've taken Cody out for the last play v Butler?
do you think woodson would tell the same shit to Matt Roth that Crean did?
where is crean now?
He was all hype and a phony. Dakich was right on that one.
nobody did less with more than Tom Crean at IU.
No. Woody has had a few close games at IU. One just last week. He has the best players on floor during those times. It's the reason why he rest them so much. So he can have them fresh and most likely without foul trouble.
HE WAS NOT THE ANSWER. BUT HE DID WIN IU'S LAST 2 BIG TEN CHAMPIONSHIPS.
I don't see him winning any big ten titles last year was likely the best shot he did or will have at one.
Crean’s worse.
He subbed incessantly, over and over and over… in and out, in and out, ALL GAME LONG, very often with NO apparent plan, need or reasoning!
Woodson’s hockey line subs are at least patterns and with a plan (even tho the plan may be flawed). His 2nd half subs are not hockey line changes, and are done for some possibly logical reasons.
I did not notice any time during the last two games where Woodson had all the starters out at the same time.
I agree. Woodson being incapable of winning the Big Ten is an odd take considering last year we were only 3 games away from winning the Big Ten and X missed basically all the Big Ten season and Race missed 5 games but was never the same player even after coming back from injury. Do people think 2 senior starters aren’t worth 3 conference wins? I certainly think there was a chance.
I think he is smarter than just about everybody else. Even the people on this board. It might have to be something to do with the fact that the games are 8 minutes longer and that they play more than twice as many games and that they sit down so much time traveling....
Woody's been in the pro game for decades and you can't scream and shout at grown men who are all pros. I think Woody would probably admit that he's trying to figure out his own style. But that is going to take a little bit of time. At least a little bit. But let's not panic because he's not Bobby Knight 2.0 - thank God.
It's not even Christmas yet. Don't panic. I think this year will be better than last year and I think next year will be better than this.
The one thing that I really enjoyed about the Bobby Knight teams were that the teams got better as the season progressed. We usually don't see it Tuesday or Thursday but we do see it from January to March. Enjoy the ride and Merry Christmas!
That is because he has only 1 guard on the bench (besides Leal, who he won’t put in).
Beat me to it. Also, as I recall, Dean Smith was pretty successful with the 5 for 5 substitution at North Carolina
It's still preseason in a sense; when the B10 starts, there will be a much shorter rotation & less complete unit changes. Imo, he does more now to spread minutes & develop more overall depth. Izzo even runs more guys out in groups during these non-conference games.
Similar threads
