Who do you consider the "Hit King"?
- Thread starter Brockway
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I didn't take OP to be about the greatest hitter of all time. Obviously that's neither Rose nor Ichiro (I would vote Williams or Cobb), but simply a referendum on whether or not Ichiro's Japan hits should "count." I understand why they don't count as part of his MLB totals, but they are still part of his career, and as a fan I see no reason to ignore them. It's not like Japan is tee-ball.
I consider Barry Bonds the greatest hitter of all time, but I don't like the fact he used PEDS. In my opinion, Willie Mays was the greatest all around player of all time. I am referring to a combination of batting average, home runs, RBIs, stolen bases and defense.
A lot of people think Hank Aaron was better than Mays, but he wasn't nearly the defensive player or base stealer Mays was when he played for the Giants. Mays also missed about two years early in his career because he was in the military.
As for Aaron, a lot of experts think he used PEDs and they enabled him to hit a lot of homers late in his career. Aaron also played many of his home games at the launching pad, while Mays played at Candlestick Park. The fact Candlestick Park frequently was so windy played a role in the number of Mays' homers because the wind usually was against him.
My suggestion is you go onto the internet and read the articles claiming he used PEDs. Say what you want, Willie Mays was a much better all-around player.
It is possible. Drug use was rampant then in baseball. And he did pretty well late in his career.
Doesn't prove anything, obviously, but it's not outrageous. I bet a lot of our "clean" sports heroes weren't that clean in actuality.
Japan = 4A. They don't count, just like Tuffy Rhodes homers in Japan don't count here either.
They don't count in the official MLB stats, for good reason. But they are still part of his career totals, and I as a fan choose to give him credit for them.
Absolutely but not towards the official record which is why this question is ridiculous about who the all-time hit leader is.
I'm with you on this argument. Ichiro is a great player, and first ballot HOF; but, what happens in Japan is irrelevant.
And in my disdain for Joe Morgan, although I did enjoy mimicking his elbow jerk when I played ball as a yute.
I don't think anyone is claiming Japan stats should count as official major league stats. The question is simply a matter of individual response. I, individually, choose to recognize Ichiro's full career. He had more career hits than Rose. Full stop. I do not think MLB should change their policies in order to include all of those Japanese hits as though they were MLB hits, however. MLB stats are for what happened in MLB.
It would be like asking, "Who is the goal king between Alan Shearer and Pele?" Pele had many more career goals, but none of them happened in England, Spain, or Germany, so they don't count, right? Well, I'd never expect the EPL to add Pele's stats to their record books, obviously, because that would be stupid, but they still belong on his career resume, and he's still the goal king to me.
Well, that makes perfect sense. I feel you on the individual response. It sounded like you thought MLB should count Ichiro's hits in Japan on their official records.
No, I agree that would be dumb. MLB stats are for what people did in MLB. However, I do think when he is inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame (as opposed to the MLB Hall of Fame), it would be appropriate to have a notation of his career total with his plaque.
I just like to defend Pete Rose with a valid defense. It doesn't help that all my childhood sports heros turned out to be assholes, or worse. Pete Rose, Bob Knight, OJ Simpson. Ali came through for me though.
Well, yeah. I think it would even be appropriate to have his Japan stats on his plaque at Cooperstown, but as a separate acknowledgment as you said.
@TheOriginalHappyGoat: Aaron hit 42 home runs over his last 3 seasons. In his last 5 seasons, he didn't drive in 100 runs. His batting averages over his last 5 seasons: .265, .301, .268, .234, and .229.
Please don't tell me he was doping with numbers like that at the end of his career. Your beef drapes are hanging lower than Hope Solo's on this one.
McNutt just hates Aaron because he broke a white man's record. How dare that uppity negro hit more homers than the Babe?
Please don't tell me he was doping with numbers like that at the end of his career. Your beef drapes are hanging lower than Hope Solo's on this one.
McNutt just hates Aaron because he broke a white man's record. How dare that uppity negro hit more homers than the Babe?
@McNutt76: I am not going to debate anything with you. You rarely let facts or rational thought enter into your arguments. You disrespect the sport you profess to love by bending the rules yourself. You are the last person that gets to point the finger at cheaters, cheater.
I didn't say he was doping. Don't be a gash. I just said it wasn't outrageous. Like a lot of players at that time, he showed pretty impressive power in his late thirties, with a significant drop after 1973 - the year that Congress released their first steroids report, and everyone supposedly backed off on the doping for a couple of years.
That's probably true, and it's what I was going to respond with originally.
@The OriginalHappyGoat: I am not being a gash by pointing out that only 4 times in last 13 seasons did Aaron drive in more than 100 RBI. There is a clear apex in his career, and a decline. There was no Bonds-esque resurgence. Your assertion that he MAY have doped even appears to be invalid, as his power number stayed consistent until he was simply too old.
I am not being a gash, I am just telling you that argument in this case, is without merit. You are literally tripping over your sausage wallet flaps by taking the baton from McNuttz on this one.
I am not being a gash, I am just telling you that argument in this case, is without merit. You are literally tripping over your sausage wallet flaps by taking the baton from McNuttz on this one.
Willie Mays is my favorite player of all time. The last time I checked, he isn't white. vbg
I assume you are referring to the bunkers on our East Nine. It merely is a suggestion that my golf group take relief from them if we ever play the East Nine because they would have to be classified as "ground under repair" if there ever was a golfing event held on that nine. They are an absolute joke and are dangerous to play out of at this time because they are just like concrete.
So are mine. When I was a senior at IU, we drove down to Florida during spring break. On the way there, we stayed at a home in Tennessee because it was the home of one members of our group. He happened to be black, by the way.
The next day was Sunday, so we went to his church that morning. It was a black church and we were the only white people there that day. The members of the church treated us like royalty.
A couple of years ago, our son was dating a black woman from Chicago. She used to stay all night at our home several times a month and we enjoyed being around her. When she went to church with us, our fellow members treated her like royalty.
This is AOTF genius. Tripping over your sausage wallet flaps? Taking the baton from McNuttz? Genius, I tell you. You are a Word Jesus.
@Hoops Cat: Obtaining genius level on the AOTF is like being the best student in special education.
I thought it clear I was just messing with Goat, but I appear to have annoyed him.
#maketheAOTFgreatagain
I thought it clear I was just messing with Goat, but I appear to have annoyed him.
#maketheAOTFgreatagain
Well, Kris Bryant has a healthy lead in the NL in WAR at the moment at 5.7 to Murphy's 4.4. Again, that isn't a perfect stat, but I'd say the best player on the best team is most likely to win the MVP. The best player on the best team in the NL this year is Bryant or Rizzo, who has a higher OPS than Bryant.
Murphy has been unbelievable with his continued voodoo magic, but he's a penis. The voters will look for any reason not to vote for him. KB's higher WAR and Rizzo's pure awesomeness means one of those two will probably win it, unless they split the vote.
@PtownHoosier:
Prior to getting hurt, I would have said Carpenter had a great argument (his OPS was over 1.000), but his team is mediocre. Sports writers are mostly morons. A lot of them will look at stats like BA and use that against Rizzo. I don't think a pitcher should be eligible for MVP unless it is a truly great season, like Arrieta's last season. A pitcher plays in 1/5 of his team's games.
Rizzo is 4th in RBI; Bryant is 2nd in homers. Neither are in the top 20 in BA. The vote will be influenced by old writers vs new, WAR vs old measurements, and if (as you mentioned) Bryant and Rizzo split the vote.
Prior to getting hurt, I would have said Carpenter had a great argument (his OPS was over 1.000), but his team is mediocre. Sports writers are mostly morons. A lot of them will look at stats like BA and use that against Rizzo. I don't think a pitcher should be eligible for MVP unless it is a truly great season, like Arrieta's last season. A pitcher plays in 1/5 of his team's games.
Rizzo is 4th in RBI; Bryant is 2nd in homers. Neither are in the top 20 in BA. The vote will be influenced by old writers vs new, WAR vs old measurements, and if (as you mentioned) Bryant and Rizzo split the vote.
Batting average doesn't mean much anymore to smart baseball people. Like you said though, some of the idiot dinosaur writers still value it and number of hits, RBI, etc. way too much. I could see there being another Trout vs Cabrera type MVP vote, with the new school guys going with Trout and the old school guys with Cabera. So you could be right, but don't underestimate what a dick Murphy is. If it's close he won't win.
Basically he's a religious nutjob. He made some comments last year about "disagreeing" with the gay lifestyle when Billy Bean showed up to the Met's spring training.
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