We had a monster and didn’t make the tourney. A legit beast. Damnit. Fire him.
We missed the tournament with him
- Thread starter Cavanagh
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We had a monster and didn’t make the tourney. A legit beast. Damnit. Fire him.
Chicken or the egg issue.
When was the last time our best player was a versatile, athletic 2 way wing? Someone in the 6-4 to 6-6 range? Someone that could close games, and get stops.?
I don’t think it’s the players, it’s the way they are used/developed. Johnnie Davis (Wis,) would have been CJ Gunn here.
Cav will love this one...the last time we had someone that fits your entire description... probably Mr Langford.
We've had some decent players since him, that fit your size/skill description, but they haven't been the best or most relied upon players.
Dead horse here...he's just a poor overall coach, that doesn't have any idea how to consistently compete in today's college bball.
did you miss the part where he said "get stops"? Never thought of Romeo as a good defender. IMO, Gordon was a better scorer, shooter and defender. Don't think he was 6'4" but I'd take him over Romeo. I'd take Al Durham as a defender, but not shooter or scorer. Probably take a junior/senior Robert Johnson too. I guess we're not counting him as a wing, but JHS I think was solid as well and probably a better 2 way player than Romeo, imo.
Romeo was an elite on the ball defender... Not a great off the ball defender.
JHS and Romeo are similar players, in my opinion. Both had good numbers, both were playing with good bigs, both were good overall, all around players. Romeo's overall numbers were better, outside his 3P percentage. JHS probably closer to a traditional PG than Romeo ever was. But I've been on record many times that JHS is NOT suited as a PG overall...at least not for a really good team.
I keep editing this...ha ha...Romeo was A LOT better defender, overall, than JHS. Like a lot. I attribute that to Archie being a better defensive coach than Woodson...but JHS was not a very good lead defender in college.
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Romeo was pre Woodson.
My point being that under MW our best player has always been a post player. You named quite a few players (many one way), but all pre Woodson.
His system, style, and coaching aren't attractive to players like that. I wouldn't, in a million years, send my son to play for Woodson, if he were a high level perimeter player.
Its why I'd probably take "back" really any of our current players...if the new coach were comfortable that they'd fit in his program.
During Purdue's run the last 20 years what wings have they had? Hummel, college basketball is a guard's game
Bryson Tucker, will shine next year at a high-level program
Maybe I'm dense this morning, but I don't understand how it's a chicken or egg thing.
To me it's all about the coach. Woodson is the chicken laying all the eggs. The poorly constructed rosters? An egg he laid. The horrible system on each end? Egg. So many double digit losses? Egg.
Maybe could be fans throughout his tenure lamenting not having shooting, not having good guards, etc...???
I'm awful at articulating this...but most of our guys are very likely, quite a lot better overall shooters than they've largely shown at IU. And yes, at times, they're missing open looks. But the part I can't really explain, but also can't put enough emphasis on, is how important rhythm and proper motion and movement are for outside shooting. And Woodson's offense, does not promote good rhythm for perimeter shooters...a lot of the time.
Maybe it’s the wrong analogy. But, the way our rosters are constructed result from how we perform which results from how they are constructed. In other words, we are post heavy. Guards underperform. Posts get to the NBA, and some could say they developed here.
So, if you are a post player why come to IU. How about a wing or guard? So, our recruiting/portal gets more and more of the same “best players”, it’s a vicious cycle.
Now, throw in the style and roster construction and officiating in the B10, and it’s even more pronounced.
Edit: And even if we did attract the type of talent I’m looking for, they would just flop under MW.
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I see what you're saying now. I'd call it more of a self fulfilling prophecy since it starts with the coach, but once the cycle is going one leads to the other.
"If you give a moron a calculator, he will try to turn on the TV with it." - Terrence Fletcher, Whiplash
Its why...roughly 3-4 games in to Woodson's first season, I started in on how I hated his offense...how he should have forced a different style...despite TJD quite obviously being his best and most important player.
Most posters didn't really understand what I was getting at. Why not fully utilize someone as talented as TJD?! I probably didn't fully understand the scope of it, at the time, myself. It was just obvious that winning big is more likely, and "easier", when you're running a more balanced style. And obviously the game has moved of late to more spread out principles, creating space instead of creating mismatches, etc...
I had many arguments then in the offseason after his first year about completely blowing the whole roster up, changing how we use TJD, all of it.
but wait, I thought his success was due to Woody. Woody 'coached' the laziness right out of him.
That was a fantastic movie. Simmons was also good in The Accountant.
He's a really good actor. Did you watch Oz? He's really good in that, as are other actors.
Yea, but we also had Trey Galloway starting, that counteracts any monster.. Of course that too is the fault of the coach but that team had major flaws that many coaches would have struggled with.
This year, not so much, there's more than enough pieces to make a decent team. He's shown without doubt that he does not have the chops to run this program. Doesn't have the on floor chops, doesn't have the management skills..
Old conservative f**k that's uninterested in changing his ways and playing a style of basketball that's ten years obsolete.....
A few.. Edwards, Ivey, but never enough.
20 year run? Any coach that loses to five double digit seeds has a major flaw in their system. One or two, yeah it happens. FIVE... that's systemic and a flaw in approach.
Out of 15 tourneys, he's lost five times to a double digit seed while being a five seed or higher. No coach in history has been as bad. That's 33% of tourneys where he's lost to a double digit seed.
He recruits high floor low ceiling players .. (RMK told him to do that but didn't add the part about also having upper level talent to fill it out) and sometimes they become high ceiling but never more than one per team. It also helps explain their 20 year run of December championships and March flubs. His teams are always ahead of the proficiency curve in Dec... by March teams with better (sometimes worse) talent catch up and pass them..
This current team is built to lose early in the tourney. If it's a sixth low/mid major I'm gonna hurt myself from laughing so hard.. 1 out of 3 chance. I like those odds.
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From another thread:
Was Painter ever on the short list for any of those positions? I didn't follow those hires, but I'm doubtful?
No.
Painter was one of the 30 guys UCLA reached out to after they fired Alford but that's because they missed on every one before hiring Cronin.
Painter (finally) got over the hump last year two decades into his tenure but it seems people forget Purdue lost to a 16, 15, and 13 and in three consecutive tournaments prior to last year.
Yeah but it took a once in a generation physical and statistical outlier to get there and only after the more than hilarious embarrassment of losing to a 17th seed in the first round with that same freak the previous year.
Ware didn't play that hard the first 1/2 of the season. He got it going and became a really nice player, but maybe if he had scored 40 vs UConn, Auburn or Kansas, IU would have made the tourney.
I don't blame Woodson for that. I blame Ware for taking too long to get motivated.
I don't blame Woodson for that. I blame Ware for taking too long to get motivated.
I thought Ware gave good effort and was very professional his whole time at IU. He got better as the season went on. Played through injury. Just had a bad roster and coach around him.
basically, they are what rmk was his last 10 years, which is way better than we are now
