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Water and fuel

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
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A couple of things.

Water. In 2014 California voters passed a huge bond authorization for water improvements. That’s the good news. A little digging reveals that the California authorities established a “rigorous “ review process to review and approve project proposals. Rigorous means heavy, very heavy, environmental and aesthetic project review. The approved projects are not in the LA area and many have yet to begin construction. California is the poster child for cumbersome bureaucratic review. NB the business es leaving the state.


Fuel. A trip through any forest or open space with an experienced wildfire fighter, and you will get a lecture on fuel. I see trees and beauty, those people see fuel and fire. Fuel mitigation is important and vital. California doesn’t do that, not even in the vicinity of power lines. I understand that all these fires started in brush. Brush! That’s the easiest fuel to mitigate, but not in California. And you don’t need to clear all brush. The experts can spot high-hazard fire areas based upon topography, fuel, and wind.

Check the graph.

 
A couple of things.

Water. In 2014 California voters passed a huge bond authorization for water improvements. That’s the good news. A little digging reveals that the California authorities established a “rigorous “ review process to review and approve project proposals. Rigorous means heavy, very heavy, environmental and aesthetic project review. The approved projects are not in the LA area and many have yet to begin construction. California is the poster child for cumbersome bureaucratic review. NB the business es leaving the state.


Fuel. A trip through any forest or open space with an experienced wildfire fighter, and you will get a lecture on fuel. I see trees and beauty, those people see fuel and fire. Fuel mitigation is important and vital. California doesn’t do that, not even in the vicinity of power lines. I understand that all these fires started in brush. Brush! That’s the easiest fuel to mitigate, but not in California. And you don’t need to clear all brush. The experts can spot high-hazard fire areas based upon topography, fuel, and wind.

Check the graph.

Cumbersome review is a mild term for the dystopia that is California governance.

LA is a prime example.

There are currently 54 Boards and Commissions 'managing ' literally every imaginable aspect of city function.

The makeup of The LA Board of Fire Commissioners is a good example.

Four of the five Commissioners are black females. The fifth is a hispanic male MD.

Three of the four women have extensive backgrounds in the LA Unified School District, involving activist staff positions, serving as union/labor/democrat party functionaries. Only one of the four has even the slightest connection to LAFD, and this was another board appointment, the Fire Pension Board.

The MD has a laudable record , many Boards and Awards for decades, but again, not a moments service in any Fire capacity.

A deep dive into the $817 Million LAFD '23-24 budget, managed by this collection of democrat activists and the MD, shows roughly $26M in cuts to areas which supported training and preparation for natural disasters, including earthquake, flood, and FIRE prevention and response.

Predictably, the DEI initiatives were untouched...some $30Million.

As of a short while ago, 1,000 homes, businesses, schools and other structures have been obliterated....other infrastructure into the tens of $Billions have been destroyed.

No pity at all.....
 
Then there is this article, https://smdp.com/news/environment/c...on-keeps-getting-longer-and-more-devastating/

California law requires creating a buffer by clearing out trees, brush and grass within 100 feet around homes in wildfire-affected areas. Fire officials say it can increase the likelihood of a house surviving a wildfire eight-fold. In addition, homes with wood or shingle roofs are at high risk of being destroyed. Consider materials such as composition, metal or tile.​
...​
Investor-owned utilities must prepare wildfire mitigation plans that describe what they are doing to prevent, combat and respond to wildfires. The three largest utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, all plan to spend billions clearing brush and trees away from transmission lines, insulate or underground power lines, install or maintain a network of remote cameras and weather stations to detect wind, smoke and other dangers.​
But a state audit found that some of the wildfire plans were “seriously deficient” and concluded that state officials are failing to hold California’s electric utilities accountable for preventing fires caused by their equipment. The report to the California Legislature found that the new Office of Energy Infrastructure Safety approved utility companies’ wildfire prevention plans even when they were “seriously deficient.”​
...​
On March 22, 2019, Gov. Newsom declared a wildfire state of emergency for California and waived environmental regulations to speed up forest management projects aimed at reducing the fuel load for the upcoming wildfire season. By removing dead trees or clearing brush, the programs aim to reduce the threat of wildfires by creating fuel breaks, defensible space and safe travel corridors around vulnerable communities.​

Then from LAFD:

Owners of property located in the Very High Fire Hazard Severity Zone (VHFHSZ) shall maintain their property in accordance with the Fire Code (L.A.M.C. 57.4906.5.2). Year-round compliance shall be maintained as described below on all native brush, weeds, grass, trees and hazardous vegetation within 200 feet of any structures/buildings, whether those structures are on the owner’s property or adjoining properties, and within 10 feet of any combustible fence or roadway/driveway used for vehicular travel.
1. Areas within 200 feet of structures and/or 10 feet of roadside surfaces or combustible fence: Grass shall be cut to 3 inches in height. Native brush shall be reduced in quantity to three inches in height. This does not apply to individual native shrubs spaced a minimum of 18 feet apart, provided such shrubs are trimmed up from the ground to 1/3 of their height with all dead material being removed (see diagram below).
2. For trees taller than 18 feet, trim lower branches so no foliage is within 6 feet of the ground, and remove all dead material. For trees and shrubs less than 18 feet, remove lower branches to 1/3 of their height, and remove all dead material (see diagram below).
3. Trees shall be trimmed up so the foliage is no closer than 10 feet from the outlet of a chimney (see diagram below).
4. All roof surfaces shall be maintained free of substantial accumulation of leaves, needles, twigs and any other combustible matter. Maintain 5 feet of vertical clearance between roof surfaces and portions of overhanging trees (see diagram below).
5. All cut vegetation and debris shall be removed in a legal manner. Cut vegetation may be machine processed (i.e.,chipped) and spread back onto the property at a depth not to exceed 3 inches within 30 feet of structures and 6 inches beyond 30 feet of structures. In addition, spread material shall not be placed within 10 feet of any usable roadside (in accordance with Fire Prevention Bureau Procedure No. 25)

The largest single landowner in California is the federal government. Wouldn't they be exempt from CA laws on brush clearing?

You know CO has frequent wildfires. You both have the same sort of humidity levels. We both know fires have gotten into Estes and Boulder. How did those communities get hit?

My brother lives in LA in the winter, I asked him today how he's doing. He said that he is fine, but the smoke in the air makes it difficult to be outside without a mask. But the high winds, which have reached 60-70mph, have made it so you don't want to be outside anyway. 11% humidity and a 60mpg gust on top of 30-40 mile sustained winds makes it pretty tough to stop any fire.

The numbers below are from 2022. California lost less land to wildfires than TX and a lower percentage. The same is true for OK and NM.


Weirdly, KY is hard hit by wildfires. I can understand the states without moisture. Even worse is Florida, which lost about as much as CA. It rains in FL, a lot. Humidity is high. How do they lose 339,000 acres to wildfire?

Florida​

  • Total acres burned: 339,783
  • Total number of fires: 828
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 11,843

California​

  • Total acres burned: 309,287
  • Total number of fires: 7,884
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.3%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 250,394

Oklahoma​

  • Total acres burned: 355,133
  • Total number of fires: 2,811
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.8%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 383,950

Texas​

  • Total acres burned: 671,800
  • Total number of fires: 12,571
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 584,691
 
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A couple of things.

Water. In 2014 California voters passed a huge bond authorization for water improvements. That’s the good news. A little digging reveals that the California authorities established a “rigorous “ review process to review and approve project proposals. Rigorous means heavy, very heavy, environmental and aesthetic project review. The approved projects are not in the LA area and many have yet to begin construction. California is the poster child for cumbersome bureaucratic review. NB the business es leaving the state.


Fuel. A trip through any forest or open space with an experienced wildfire fighter, and you will get a lecture on fuel. I see trees and beauty, those people see fuel and fire. Fuel mitigation is important and vital. California doesn’t do that, not even in the vicinity of power lines. I understand that all these fires started in brush. Brush! That’s the easiest fuel to mitigate, but not in California. And you don’t need to clear all brush. The experts can spot high-hazard fire areas based upon topography, fuel, and wind.

Check the graph.

No one who concludes with a straight face that Trump's water declaration claim had merit is worth considering.
 
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Reactions: Joe_Hoopsier
Then there is this article, https://smdp.com/news/environment/c...on-keeps-getting-longer-and-more-devastating/

California law requires creating a buffer by clearing out trees, brush and grass within 100 feet around homes in wildfire-affected areas. Fire officials say it can increase the likelihood of a house surviving a wildfire eight-fold. In addition, homes with wood or shingle roofs are at high risk of being destroyed. Consider materials such as composition, metal or tile.​
...​
Investor-owned utilities must prepare wildfire mitigation plans that describe what they are doing to prevent, combat and respond to wildfires. The three largest utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, all plan to spend billions clearing brush and trees away from transmission lines, insulate or underground power lines, install or maintain a network of remote cameras and weather stations to detect wind, smoke and other dangers.​
But a state audit found that some of the wildfire plans were “seriously deficient” and concluded that state officials are failing to hold California’s electric utilities accountable for preventing fires caused by their equipment. The report to the California Legislature found that the new Office of Energy Infrastructure Safety approved utility companies’ wildfire prevention plans even when they were “seriously deficient.”​
...​
On March 22, 2019, Gov. Newsom declared a wildfire state of emergency for California and waived environmental regulations to speed up forest management projects aimed at reducing the fuel load for the upcoming wildfire season. By removing dead trees or clearing brush, the programs aim to reduce the threat of wildfires by creating fuel breaks, defensible space and safe travel corridors around vulnerable communities.​

Then from LAFD:

Owners of property located in the Very High Fire Hazard Severity Zone (VHFHSZ) shall maintain their property in accordance with the Fire Code (L.A.M.C. 57.4906.5.2). Year-round compliance shall be maintained as described below on all native brush, weeds, grass, trees and hazardous vegetation within 200 feet of any structures/buildings, whether those structures are on the owner’s property or adjoining properties, and within 10 feet of any combustible fence or roadway/driveway used for vehicular travel.
1. Areas within 200 feet of structures and/or 10 feet of roadside surfaces or combustible fence: Grass shall be cut to 3 inches in height. Native brush shall be reduced in quantity to three inches in height. This does not apply to individual native shrubs spaced a minimum of 18 feet apart, provided such shrubs are trimmed up from the ground to 1/3 of their height with all dead material being removed (see diagram below).​
2. For trees taller than 18 feet, trim lower branches so no foliage is within 6 feet of the ground, and remove all dead material. For trees and shrubs less than 18 feet, remove lower branches to 1/3 of their height, and remove all dead material (see diagram below).​
3. Trees shall be trimmed up so the foliage is no closer than 10 feet from the outlet of a chimney (see diagram below).​
4. All roof surfaces shall be maintained free of substantial accumulation of leaves, needles, twigs and any other combustible matter. Maintain 5 feet of vertical clearance between roof surfaces and portions of overhanging trees (see diagram below).​
5. All cut vegetation and debris shall be removed in a legal manner. Cut vegetation may be machine processed (i.e.,chipped) and spread back onto the property at a depth not to exceed 3 inches within 30 feet of structures and 6 inches beyond 30 feet of structures. In addition, spread material shall not be placed within 10 feet of any usable roadside (in accordance with Fire Prevention Bureau Procedure No. 25)​

The largest single landowner in California is the federal government. Wouldn't they be exempt from CA laws on brush clearing?

You know CO has frequent wildfires. You both have the same sort of humidity levels. We both know fires have gotten into Estes and Boulder. How did those communities get hit?

My brother lives in LA in the winter, I asked him today how he's doing. He said that he is fine, but the smoke in the air makes it difficult to be outside without a mask. But the high winds, which have reached 60-70mph, have made it so you don't want to be outside anyway. 11% humidity and a 60mpg gust on top of 30-40 mile sustained winds makes it pretty tough to stop any fire.

The numbers below are from 2022. California lost less land to wildfires than TX and a lower percentage. The same is true for OK and NM.


Weirdly, KY is hard hit by wildfires. I can understand the states without moisture. Even worse is Florida, which lost about as much as CA. It rains in FL, a lot. Humidity is high. How do they lose 339,000 acres to wildfire?

Florida​

  • Total acres burned: 339,783
  • Total number of fires: 828
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 11,843

California​

  • Total acres burned: 309,287
  • Total number of fires: 7,884
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.3%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 250,394

Oklahoma​

  • Total acres burned: 355,133
  • Total number of fires: 2,811
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.8%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 383,950

Texas​

  • Total acres burned: 671,800
  • Total number of fires: 12,571
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 584,691
That's nice.

A shit ton of cut and paste

It relates to LA how again?
 
Then there is this article, https://smdp.com/news/environment/c...on-keeps-getting-longer-and-more-devastating/

California law requires creating a buffer by clearing out trees, brush and grass within 100 feet around homes in wildfire-affected areas. Fire officials say it can increase the likelihood of a house surviving a wildfire eight-fold. In addition, homes with wood or shingle roofs are at high risk of being destroyed. Consider materials such as composition, metal or tile.​
...​
Investor-owned utilities must prepare wildfire mitigation plans that describe what they are doing to prevent, combat and respond to wildfires. The three largest utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, all plan to spend billions clearing brush and trees away from transmission lines, insulate or underground power lines, install or maintain a network of remote cameras and weather stations to detect wind, smoke and other dangers.​
But a state audit found that some of the wildfire plans were “seriously deficient” and concluded that state officials are failing to hold California’s electric utilities accountable for preventing fires caused by their equipment. The report to the California Legislature found that the new Office of Energy Infrastructure Safety approved utility companies’ wildfire prevention plans even when they were “seriously deficient.”​
...​
On March 22, 2019, Gov. Newsom declared a wildfire state of emergency for California and waived environmental regulations to speed up forest management projects aimed at reducing the fuel load for the upcoming wildfire season. By removing dead trees or clearing brush, the programs aim to reduce the threat of wildfires by creating fuel breaks, defensible space and safe travel corridors around vulnerable communities.​

Then from LAFD:

Owners of property located in the Very High Fire Hazard Severity Zone (VHFHSZ) shall maintain their property in accordance with the Fire Code (L.A.M.C. 57.4906.5.2). Year-round compliance shall be maintained as described below on all native brush, weeds, grass, trees and hazardous vegetation within 200 feet of any structures/buildings, whether those structures are on the owner’s property or adjoining properties, and within 10 feet of any combustible fence or roadway/driveway used for vehicular travel.
1. Areas within 200 feet of structures and/or 10 feet of roadside surfaces or combustible fence: Grass shall be cut to 3 inches in height. Native brush shall be reduced in quantity to three inches in height. This does not apply to individual native shrubs spaced a minimum of 18 feet apart, provided such shrubs are trimmed up from the ground to 1/3 of their height with all dead material being removed (see diagram below).​
2. For trees taller than 18 feet, trim lower branches so no foliage is within 6 feet of the ground, and remove all dead material. For trees and shrubs less than 18 feet, remove lower branches to 1/3 of their height, and remove all dead material (see diagram below).​
3. Trees shall be trimmed up so the foliage is no closer than 10 feet from the outlet of a chimney (see diagram below).​
4. All roof surfaces shall be maintained free of substantial accumulation of leaves, needles, twigs and any other combustible matter. Maintain 5 feet of vertical clearance between roof surfaces and portions of overhanging trees (see diagram below).​
5. All cut vegetation and debris shall be removed in a legal manner. Cut vegetation may be machine processed (i.e.,chipped) and spread back onto the property at a depth not to exceed 3 inches within 30 feet of structures and 6 inches beyond 30 feet of structures. In addition, spread material shall not be placed within 10 feet of any usable roadside (in accordance with Fire Prevention Bureau Procedure No. 25)​

The largest single landowner in California is the federal government. Wouldn't they be exempt from CA laws on brush clearing?

You know CO has frequent wildfires. You both have the same sort of humidity levels. We both know fires have gotten into Estes and Boulder. How did those communities get hit?

My brother lives in LA in the winter, I asked him today how he's doing. He said that he is fine, but the smoke in the air makes it difficult to be outside without a mask. But the high winds, which have reached 60-70mph, have made it so you don't want to be outside anyway. 11% humidity and a 60mpg gust on top of 30-40 mile sustained winds makes it pretty tough to stop any fire.

The numbers below are from 2022. California lost less land to wildfires than TX and a lower percentage. The same is true for OK and NM.


Weirdly, KY is hard hit by wildfires. I can understand the states without moisture. Even worse is Florida, which lost about as much as CA. It rains in FL, a lot. Humidity is high. How do they lose 339,000 acres to wildfire?

Florida​

  • Total acres burned: 339,783
  • Total number of fires: 828
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 11,843

California​

  • Total acres burned: 309,287
  • Total number of fires: 7,884
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.3%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 250,394

Oklahoma​

  • Total acres burned: 355,133
  • Total number of fires: 2,811
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.8%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 383,950

Texas​

  • Total acres burned: 671,800
  • Total number of fires: 12,571
  • Burned acreage as a proportion of total land area: 0.4%
  • Total acres of human-caused fires: 584,691
there is a lot of ignorance in that article

I’ll take the time to point out one. Total Acres Burned.

Burning is good for many forests and is part of management. Some species of pine will only reproduce with fire. The big fire near my cabin (which I posted about here) was mostly allowed to burn with fire crews only protecting structures. High density development among fire-prone areas, like California, is a different story. The burning of the town of Paradice in2018 was a wake/up call and was the reason for Newsom taking his 2019 action.
 
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there is a lot of ignorance in that article

I’ll take the time to point out one. Total Acres Burned.

Burning is good for many forests and is part of management. Some species of pine will only reproduce with fire. The big fire near my cabin (which I posted about here) was mostly allowed to burn with fire crews only protecting structures. High density development among fire-prone areas, like California, is a different story. The burning of the town of Paradice in2018 was a wake/up call and was the reason for Newsom taking his 2019 action.
There aren't many places with high density and 11% humidity and Santa Ana winds.

I am sure there is more CA could do. Just as surely there was more TN and NC could do to reduce flooding. But people seemed less smug about Helene. They have laws requiring brush clearing, you mention Newsom's 2019 action. So I am confused what you are pointing out. Is clearing happening or not?
 
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