I don’t go by speculation. I go by what I know that are facts.
As for what we learned and the value of same I have no idea. I hope we don’t ever have a war
Trump's ending the war
- Thread starter snarlcakes
- Start date
As for what we learned and the value of same I have no idea. I hope we don’t ever have a war
Just curious, why do you care so much about the war ending. Do you have relatives in the region. Not trying to be a dick with this question.
As I see it, Putin is 100 percent to blame fur this and Russia should not see any benefits from this invasion.
That's the long and short of it -- and one of the major reasons why I think this is not only reckless and short-sighted, it's also just a dick move on Trump's part.
I watched that speech that Vance gave in Munich. And, don't get me wrong, there were things he said that I fully agree with...even if the Euro-weenies there didn't want to hear them.
But the camera did a closeup shot of Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko seething -- and I half expected him to jump on stage and beat the ever-loving shit out of our Vice President. And I can't say I'd have blamed him.
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Money. If congress wants to fight the war, start a war tax.
Edit: I also want it to end because Russian is a nuclear power. I’d much rather Ukraine lose some land than continue fighting the war and it escalates in a war against Europe, Poland, or U.S.
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Putin is indeed 100 percent to blame. But they’re the bigger dog. Not everything is our fight so if Ukraine has to take a shittier deal that’s life. If euro and Ukraine don’t like it fight on. But that’s me. If there’s wide public support for continued funding then so be it.
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Honestly, I don't think that bolded part is within the realm of possibility here. I wish it was. And I agree that they shouldn't. But the facts on the ground are what they are.
Absent a mobilization of direct foreign military intervention, Russia is going to get benefits from it. And I don't get the impression that any foreign entity has the will to commit their own troops in anything but a peacekeeping role.
That said, I do not think the current situation warrants total capitulation. And that's what this feels like.
Can't disagree at all with anything you've said. No doubt Ukraine will lose territory.
In the end. Trump will insist on Ukrainian sovereignty and renewed security guarantees and assistance to build up the Ukranian military in anticipation of a Russian re-invasion. I would be utterly shocked if he doesn’t get that much.
Those Eastern oblasts should act as a buffer zone. They were largely breakaway regions when the war began anyway. Crimea will never belong to Ukraine. Whatever land can be swapped for the small amount of territory Ukraine has taken in Russia should be.
Should something like that come to pass. I fail to see how it is some sort of defeat for Ukraine.
As for rare earth minerals. That’s why we have Greenland.
Those rights are supposedly valued at $500B -- which is far more than we've spent there. I don't blame Zelensky for turning down Trump's "offer." But Zelensky might want to consider at least trying to bargain something there.
However, I also get the feeling that Trump's outreach to Russia -- as misguided as it is -- is being done with China in mind.
I wouldn't trust a guarantee from Putin anymore than I'd trust a guarantee from any of my business competitors.
It should be more than just that. Because I don't think Putin has any designs on stopping, whatever "guarantees" he's willing to make.
It seems like litigation to me with a weak case (inferior resources). . At some point you’re just throwing good money after bad and you need to accept you’re going to get a deal that you don’t want. But at least it ends the bleeding
Ah. Yeah, I'm sure that Putin will totally sign on to any such agreement that has enough teeth to actually thwart his ultimate goals.
I agree he probably has other ambitions, but he is 72 and at some point this is Europe's problem. They need to heavily invest in their own military because the U.S. is broke and can't police the world anymore. Ukraine bought them plenty of time to get their act together, if they choose to do so.
Tough stuff. You didn’t start it. The other side is evil. You hate them. They’ve hurt you. And you have pride. Hard position to have to negotiate from
I'm talking about you goading me into a rant about a lawyer pressing ahead on litigation with a weak case.
Must.....resist....
Must.....resist....
I certainly agree with that. A lot of Europeans are huffing and puffing about doing this as a way to thumb their nose at Trump. And I honestly don't think they get that this has been part of his aim going back to his first term.
Besides, they should want to do this for their own security and well-being....whatever Trump does or doesn't do. I'm sure it's nice having your national and continental security taken care of by a benefactor across the ocean. But that isn't the kind of thing that can last forever.
Thing is: I don't think they're in any better position to afford it than we are. And it will be interesting to see how all 27 EU nations (plus the UK) react to the burden being put back on their budgets. They're stretched pretty thin, too. And their economies are comparatively soft.
I don’t think his goals go much beyond an unaligned Ukraine. Regardless, Putin can’t presume to govern U.S. military assistance to Ukraine post a ceasefire. If he does there should be no deal.
I have an idea I have not seen, the two captured Oblasts become DMZ independent country. Sure, it will vote in a pro-Russian government. But the UN patrols it to keep everyone out, NATO, Ukraine, Russia. Over time I suspect they become less pro-Russian.
We already know that he positively won't accept anything that involves Ukrainian membership in NATO -- or even incremental steps towards that end. And I'm sure that Article 5 is the primary reason why he wouldn't.
Well, what's the functional difference between that and a US guarantee that we'll come to their rescue if Russia invades again? We're, by far, the largest military in NATO. You think Putin fears the French sending in their troops?
What’s the functional difference between NATO membership and our support of Ukraine in this current war? There isn’t one.
People seem to mistakenly believe that Article 5 requires all member countries send combat troops to the aid of the affected country. Not the case. We’ve already far more than upheld what would be required of us under Article 5 had Ukraine been in NATO.
If Ukraine in-admission to NATO is a sticking point for Russia, so be it. We can return to status quo ante before the war, this time with a guarantee that Ukraine won’t be in NATO. Which Putin claims in the primary reason for invading in the first place.
If France has to take a shitty deal and give up the Alsace region……
Let's understand exactly what Article 5 says.
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
Have the actions taken in Ukraine risen to the level of restoring and maintaining the security there? Would they thus be terminated under the conditions set by Article 5?No. We may argue that we've done what we deemed necessary to "restore...the security" of Ukraine. But it hasn't actually resulted in that.
Didn’t Germany have it. Racing could have been a bundesliga side. At some point concessions are what they are and you can’t go on into perpetuity expecting others to foot the bill
You can’t let shitheads like Putin win. Which exactly what Trump is about to do.
It’s wrong. And we used to care about that shit.
I’m willing to go further.
Something will be initiated against a NATO member (Poland?) and Trump will blink.
I'd be surprised if Putin took any action toward NATO. Let's not forget that he's also shown his ass here. But for their nukes, Russia's military is decrepit and weak.
But I will say this much: if there was ever a time he was going to provoke NATO, right now would be that time...because there's never been a time when it was more divided, at least over something going on in Europe itself.
Agreed Ukraine has to be present. But I could care less about the rest of Europe. They should have been trying to get Putin and Zelensky into peace talks.
Fair point.
I think all interested parties should've recognized this as the stalemate that it is a long time ago. Russia is going to leave this with more territory, Ukraine is going to leave it with less. But that has seemed evident to me for at least 2 years.
What's also seemed evident is that none of those who have insisted that the peace and stability of not just Europe, but the entire world, was at stake has offered their own boots on the ground. They still aren't -- except in a peacekeeping role.
The US guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in the Budapest Memorandum and balked on those, so I don't think they really trust guarantees from anybody.
Fractured Fairy Tales...
Part 1.
Recorded history began in early 2022.
Boris and Natasha Badenov rode into Donbas on donkeys and stole transvestite comedian squirrel's nuts while squirrel was distracted during gay pride celebration rehearsal. Kindly old soul resting at the beach, recovering after hiding in basement for years, recognized that a nutless squirrel being threatened by two cartoon characters was an existential threat to Truth, Justice and The American Way. Kindly old soul gave squirrel $200Billion(borrowed) in cash, guns, bullets, bombs, cannons, tanks, jets, drones, air defense, etc. to defeat cartoons on donkeys.
Three years later....
To be continued....
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