Trump Zelensky today.....

[iuwclurker]

Is that supposed to be some sort of gotcha?

If Russia invaded America, I would want the American government to respond.

When Russia invades Ukraine, I am fully supportive of the Ukranian government responding.

When Ukraine’s response is entirely dependent on third parties, those parties have to weigh Ukraine’s defense and territorial integrity with what is best for themselves.

Now that you’re caught up on the debate. Do you have anything substantive to offer?

A wee bit defensive, aren’t we? Others may have attacked you but not I.

The point is you’re adopting an isolationist position, others like me are not. The US is an economically imperialistic nation and it has served us phenomenally well. Furthermore, we’re the final bastion defending freedom. The cost-benefit analysis is easily in our favor.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

A wee bit defensive, aren’t we? Others may have attacked you but not I.

The point is you’re adopting an isolationist position, others like me are not. The US is an economically imperialistic nation and it has served us phenomenally well. Furthermore, we’re the final bastion defending freedom. The cost-benefit analysis is easily in our favor.

Smug editing of my posts constitutes an attack in my book. Don’t bring your bullshit and retreat to “woah a little defensive” that’s extremely womanly.

Economically imperialistic? Meaning we trade with foreign countries? Okay. Would be nice to reignite trade with Russia.

“Final bastion defending freedom” Mas would call this jingoism. Sounds nice. Means nothing. There are plenty of unfree people and places we don’t get involved in.

You'll have to actually perform a cost/ benefit for me to take your word for it.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

To make you think I'm even more bloodthirsty, these words from my Drill Sergeant in Basic told us:

"Your job isn't to die for your country. Your job is to make the other poor son-of-a-bitch die for his country."

Being just 18 years old at the time, I never thought of it that way. But it definitely put a new perspective on things, for me.

Nobody cared that Harold, the Anglo-Saxon king, had just defeated the Viking king Harald mere days before he marched south and lost the Battle of Hastings - they just remember William the Conqueror won the battle and changed the direction and culture of England and the UK forever. William was undoubtedly glad his enemy had been weakened beforehand.

Your quote was first attributed to GEN Patton during WW2.
But cool story, Bruv

 

[BradStevens]

I disagree that these are 100,000 average joe Russians. If reports are to be believed, many are dregs of Russian society, having come from jails and prisons and in it for money only. Mercenaries. Of course, you have some patriotic Russians join up and many lose their idealism.

It's not just people Russia is losing. They are losing/have lost much of their Soviet Union arsenal built up over decades. We're also seeing their strengths and weaknesses that our military can exploit, if we have to.

The question you have to ask is - are we the ones causing all these deaths? No, we're not. These people have been fighting each other for centuries. But is it to our advantage that these deaths are happeing? Yes. Those are just unemotional facts that have nothing to do with sympathy for those deaths.

I disagree that we can know that we are advantaged by this scenario. I disagree with the notion of analyzing and basing whether we support Ukraine on that perceived advantage.

 

[BradStevens]

To make you think I'm even more bloodthirsty, these words from my Drill Sergeant in Basic told us:

"Your job isn't to die for your country. Your job is to make the other poor son-of-a-bitch die for his country."

Being just 18 years old at the time, I never thought of it that way. But it definitely put a new perspective on things, for me.

Nobody cared that Harold, the Anglo-Saxon king, had just defeated the Viking king Harald mere days before he marched south and lost the Battle of Hastings - they just remember William the Conqueror won the battle and changed the direction and culture of England and the UK forever. William was undoubtedly glad his enemy had been weakened beforehand.

In a war, I agree with you. We are not at war with Russia.

 

[twenty02]

Like the Blood Moon eclipse last night... Other planets are aligning. I've become one with @DANC

Only took like a decade. Cheers Dan. 😂

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

In a war, I agree with you. We are not at war with Russia.

Not directly but by proxy. Directly if you count cyber warfare. Neither side wants to test what would happen in an actual war

 

[IUCrazy2]

For those pushing for peace, I think those answers would be easy. The US didn't quit because they could win. Ukraine should quit (in the minds of those pushing for it) because they cannot. I think that's what this all comes down to. Those calling for Ukraine to quit now and cede the territory Russia has taken believe Ukraine can't win and will lose more land and people if they continue to fight.

The better analogy is Great Britain. Should Churchill have thrown in the towel when Hitler swept them out of Europe and was bombing London? It was over, they couldn't win without pulling in someone to help.

 

[Stuffshot]

There's nothing inherently wrong about what Vance said - but why was he lecturing Z? Z knows the history better than he does. Vance was insolent in his manner and butted in where he shouldn't have been. Marco should have been the one making the case.

And there was nothing wrong with what Z said in reply. He's right that Russia is not to be trusted and there is a long line of broken promises.

Z knows what it's like to try to be diplomatic with Russia and the results. Vance is a foreign policy neophyte and shouldn't be lecturing a head of state. As I've said before, Trump can speak for himself.

I realize people see things differently and I respect other's opinions. But as someone who has defended Trump often here, I can also disagree with him and his administration when I think he's wrong.

View embedded media

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with DANC wholeheartedly on something. Putin is not to be trusted.

I still don't understand how DANC can think Putin is not to be trusted but still support Trump, who has repeatedly supported Putin with no apparent reservations.

It's a real shame that Trump does not also agree with DANC on this.

 

[Stuffshot]

That's not good.

It must be so "not good" that even Musk has removed it. It's no longer available.

 

[Stuffshot]

I still don't know if Z refused to sign the agreement or Trump kicked him out before he could do it.

Well, shit, we should know, shouldn't we?

Trump orchestrated the whole thing in public, got upstaged by Vance and then the cross-talk by Vance/Trump left in doubt whether any agreement had been entered (or even reached) at all.

Not exactly the playbook of the world's greatest negotiator ever, was it?

 

[IUCrazy2]

Think about your comment.

As I recall, your military service was administrative and not in a theater of active conflict.
My military service was predominantly combat arms in an active war zone.
Should I disregard your opinion based on the graphic difference between your experience and mine?
Do you equally discount the opinions of the majority of those here who agree with you?
I think there is only one other poster here who has experienced combat Ops. The others all have opinions...are those opinions to be censored, or banned, as I have been from the original Ukraine thread for three ****ing years?

Yeah, the ****ers you now support were giving weapons to the people you fought to use to shoot at you. Which makes your position on this whole thing about the most ass backwards out of anyone here.

Yeah, it isn't the Soviet Union anymore but it is the heirs to their fallen empire.

 

[Stuffshot]

I have my doubts. Most companies clear their personnel out at the sign of war breaking out.

The US had a lot of companies doing business in Russia before the Ukraine invasion, and pulled their people out.

As a side note, I'm pissed because we had a cruise scheduled that went from Copenhagen through the Baltics, stopping in St. Petersburg. Scheduled for June of 2022. The visit to St Petersburg, which was a huge reason I wanted to go, was canceled. So I canceled the cruise. I doubt I ever get to see St. Peterburg now, and not sure I'd risk going over there and being arrested.

I would love to see St. Petersburg, but I don't trust Putin either, not at all.

 

[Stuffshot]

Oh the suit again. About as dumb a thing to focus on as when Obama wore a brown suit.

Can Musk be trusted since he never wears a suit?

And, Musk has cheerfully requested and accepted free cheese by the billions from the U.S. Government.

Neither Musk nor Trump are self-made men.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well, shit, we should know, shouldn't we?

Trump orchestrated the whole thing in public, got upstaged by Vance and then the cross-talk by Vance/Trump left in doubt whether any agreement had been entered (or even reached) at all.

Not exactly the playbook of the world's greatest negotiator ever, was it?

The invasion transpired on Biden moron

 

[IUCrazy2]

Here it is again: someone thinking it's in America's best interest for hundreds of thousands of people to die in a war.

Maybe it is. If China for some reason went to war with Russia for Siberia, it would be in our interests for millions of them on each side to die. A million dead Russian men means it is at least another generation before they have the ability to have an adventure outside their own borders again. To the individual Russian that is a catastrophe and on a basic human level it even sounds gross. The world isn't a kumbaya place though.

 

[mcmurtry66]

And, Musk has cheerfully requested and accepted free cheese by the billions from the U.S. Government.

While becoming the largest manufacturer of electric vehicles that was pushed so hard by your Wokees you love so much

A woke moron like you should love Musk

Aren’t you all in on progressives? That’s your thing.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well, shit, we should know, shouldn't we?

Trump orchestrated the whole thing in public, got upstaged by Vance and then the cross-talk by Vance/Trump left in doubt whether any agreement had been entered (or even reached) at all.

Not exactly the playbook of the world's greatest negotiator ever, was it?

Biden was just ignored. Harris would have been worse. 🤡. But that’s your crowd 🤣🤣🤣. So dumb

 

[Stuffshot]

The invasion transpired on Biden moron

Thank you for agreeing with me.

The invasion by Trump's buddy, Putin, occurred at a point in time calculated not to embarrass Putin's buddy, Trump.

It must be true -- you just admitted it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

The invasion by Trump's buddy, Putin, occurred at a point in time calculated not to embarrass Putin's buddy, Trump.

It must be true -- you just admitted it.

No stupid. He was a feckless mushy peas moron. No wonder you loved him. Dumb and dumber. Two weasels

 

[Stuffshot]

No stupid. He was a feckless mushy peas moron. No wonder you loved him. Dumb and dumber. Two weasels

Every day, you sound more like a rural Idaho gunrunning Trump supporter and less like the guy that used to rationally tell us why Ron Desantis was the best choice for the Republican nomination in 2024, as you used to be able to.

I don't know what happened to you.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Every day, you sound more like a rural Idaho gunrunning Trump supporter and less like the guy that used to rationally tell us why Ron Desantis was the best choice for the Republican nomination in 2024, as you used to be able to.

I don't know what happened to you.

I don’t like you. I think you’re incredibly stupid. And that’s fine. Stupid people can be endearing. But you’re not. You don’t come in good faith you come to post hyper partisan bullshit. Couple that with that you’re a weasel and there’s not a single redeeming thing about you. Of all the posters on this board you’re the worst. And that’s saying a lot. Just a dumb rat

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Every day, you sound more like a rural Idaho gunrunning Trump supporter and less like the guy that used to rationally tell us why Ron Desantis was the best choice for the Republican nomination in 2024, as you used to be able to.

I don't know what happened to you.

What’s to be done? I wanted DeSantis, Mcm wanted DeSantis, we all wanted DeSantis.

It didn’t happen. Trump is a force of nature, greatest political figure of our era.

Btw if Trump being a “buddy” of Putin keeps him from invading countries, maybe more President’s should be his “buddy”.

 

[ribbont]

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with DANC wholeheartedly on something. Putin is not to be trusted.

I still don't understand how DANC can think Putin is not to be trusted but still support Trump, who has repeatedly supported Putin with no apparent reservations.

It's a real shame that Trump does not also agree with DANC on this.

Didn't Trump supply Ukraine with javelin missles to use against Russia that Obama refused to give them?

Trump admin approves new sale of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine

The Trump administration has approved the $39M sale of defensive lethal weapons to Ukraine, according to two U.S. officials and another source familiar with the plan.

abcnews.go.com

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

And didn't Trump stop construction on Nord 2?

Trump blocks Putin’s pipeline with US sanctions

Only weeks away from completion, new US sanctions force Nord Stream 2 contractor to down tools.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Your quote was first attributed to GEN Patton during WW2.
But cool story, Bruv

Was it? In the movie Patton says, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country." However, did he ever really say that? He probably said some version of that, as did many in the decades before and since, including DIs and other military leaders.

Quote Origin: No Bastard Ever Won a War by Dying for His Country – Quote Investigator®

quoteinvestigator.com

 

[Stuffshot]

What’s to be done? I wanted DeSantis, Mcm wanted DeSantis, we all wanted DeSantis.

It didn’t happen. Trump is a force of nature, greatest political figure of our era.

Btw if Trump being a “buddy” of Putin keeps him from invading countries, maybe more President’s should be his “buddy”.

Maybe, but how can you prove Trump's friendship with/adoration of Putin is currently preventing other invasions?

So far, Trump's solution to Ukraine is not to use his friendship with Putin to persuade Putin to withdraw from Ukraine but instead is only to use his status as President to browbeat Zekenskyy into surrendering or conceding to Putin's prior invasion.

World peace does not seem to be benefitting from Trump's friendship with Putin.

 

[ribbont]

Maybe, but how can you prove Trump's friendship with/adoration of Putin is currently preventing other invasions?

So far, Trump's solution to Ukraine is not to use his friendship with Putin to persuade Putin to withdraw from Ukraine but instead is only to use his status as President to browbeat Zekenskyy into surrendering or conceding to Putin's prior invasion.

World peace does not seem to be benefitting from Trump's friendship with Putin.

Can you post the link to the conversations between. Trump and Putin? And show us the final peace deal? Of course, Putin can't be trusted. So the only solution should be regime change? Right? If we can't trust Putin and never will be able to, then regime change is the only solution.

 

[Stuffshot]

Didn't Trump supply Ukraine with javelin missles to use against Russia that Obama refused to give them?

Trump admin approves new sale of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine

The Trump administration has approved the $39M sale of defensive lethal weapons to Ukraine, according to two U.S. officials and another source familiar with the plan.

abcnews.go.com

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

And didn't Trump stop construction on Nord 2?

Trump blocks Putin’s pipeline with US sanctions

Only weeks away from completion, new US sanctions force Nord Stream 2 contractor to down tools.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Your links are from 2017 and 2019 (6-8 years ago). I might consider if Trump has made his current policy known.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Maybe, but how can you prove Trump's friendship with/adoration of Putin is currently preventing other invasions?

So far, Trump's solution to Ukraine is not to use his friendship with Putin to persuade Putin to withdraw from Ukraine but instead is only to use his status as President to browbeat Zekenskyy into surrendering or conceding to Putin's prior invasion.

World peace does not seem to be benefitting from Trump's friendship with Putin.

Want to compare deaths under trump vs Biden?

 

[Stuffshot]

Can you post the link to the conversations between. Trump and Putin? And show us the final peace deal? Of course, Putin can't be trusted. So the only solution should be regime change? Right? If we can't trust Putin and never will be able to, then regime change is the only solution.

Interesting post. I agree with quite a bit of it.

But you shouldn't assign me the task of providing a link or transcript of past conversations between Trump and Putin to prove a point you would like to make. It's your point, so you find the evidence.

However, from memory I recall that Trump ejected an official U.S. notetaker/transcriber from Trump's meeting with Putin a few years ago (in Helsinki, maybe?) so that the truth of the conversation would never be known. So good luck finding the evidence you want!

 

[Stuffshot]

Want to compare deaths under trump vs Biden?

No, but I'll compare the number of my divorces with yours and also will compare the number of stories you've posted about high school girls visiting your house with the Zero such stories I have posted.

Deal? You go first.

 

[ribbont]

Interesting post. I agree with quite a bit of it.

But you shouldn't assign me the task of providing a link or transcript of past conversations between Trump and Putin to prove a point you would like to make. It's your point, so you find the evidence.

However, from memory I recall that Trump ejected an official U.S. notetaker/transcriber from Trump's meeting with Putin a few years ago (in Helsinki, maybe?) so that the truth of the conversation would never be known. So good luck finding the evidence you want!

No. You said Trump is not using his friendship with Putin to get Putin to withdraw. I am just wondering how you know that? And do friends supply your enemies with javelins? And stop a pipeline that helps Russia?

 

[mcmurtry66]

No, but I'll compare the number of my divorces with yours and also will compare the number of stories you've posted about high school girls visiting your house with the Zero such stories I have posted.

Deal? You go first.

No one would want you other than whatever pig you ended up with bc you have shit for options. ever wonder why celebs and the rest bounce around. Options. You have none. That’s not a win. That’s inertia. You’re a fcking creep. I’ve never had a high school girl visit my house. My kid is in middle school weasel. What are you implying? Remember when you were trying to find floor weasel? Want me to find you? Take about two seconds. Keep on that path creep…. Weasel pos. Floor is nice. I’m not.

 

[mcmurtry66]

No. You said Trump is not using his friendship with Putin to get Putin to withdraw. I am just wondering how you know that? And do friends supply your enemies with javelins? And stop a pipeline that helps Russia?

You’re talking to an absolute moron. A gov sucking pos dependent

 

[ribbont]

You’re talking to an absolute moron. A gov sucking pos dependent

I like easy wins. Already had Goat, Marv, and OS tap out this week. SS is like - me as the Dream Team against a biddy ball team, intellectually speaking, of course.

Hell, I had OS provide a link that proved himself wrong and me right!

 

[BradStevens]

Maybe it is. If China for some reason went to war with Russia for Siberia, it would be in our interests for millions of them on each side to die. A million dead Russian men means it is at least another generation before they have the ability to have an adventure outside their own borders again. To the individual Russian that is a catastrophe and on a basic human level it even sounds gross. The world isn't a kumbaya place though.

I respect you laying out the argument clearly instead of dodging it.

But I disagree with it and don’t think it’s possible to know what happens as a result of all this. A destabilized Russia, with its nuclear arsenal and what appears to be a resentful populace, scares me orders of magnitude more than the possibility of a U.S. v Russia hot war.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I like easy wins. Already had Goat, Marv, and OS tap out this week. SS is like - me as the Dream Team against a biddy ball team, intellectually speaking, of course.

Hell, I had OS provide a link that proved himself wrong and me right!

Those are called scalps son. Stay strong! Probably going to die in a tornado tonight. Carry the torch

 

[ribbont]

Those are called scalps son. Stay strong! Probably going to die in a tornado tonight. Carry the torch

Appreciate the encouragement. But I think I'm older than you.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Yeah, the ****ers you now support were giving weapons to the people you fought to use to shoot at you. Which makes your position on this whole thing about the most ass backwards out of anyone here.

Yeah, it isn't the Soviet Union anymore but it is the heirs to their fallen empire.

It's unfortunate that a populist position regarding the NATO(US) catastrophic adventure in Ukraine engenders a response of such poor quality.
To think that understanding the dynamic involved in my experience, would codify my response to the disaster in Ukraine is foolish.
NATO(US) provoked this conflict, largely funded by a mix of Federal Agencies, including USAID, CIA, State Department, FDA, CDC. The graft, fraud and corruption is endemic to the modern Federal government and Ukraine is like a new sandbox.
Another fine mess this bunch of inept placeholders has gotten us into.