Because you have no sense or appreciation of history.
Trump Zelensky today.....
- Thread starter dr.jb
- Start date
So you don't think Russia acts against the interest of the United States? And thus a weakened Russia would be beneficial.
Yup a “Gas Station with nuclear weapons” said one of the dumber politicians in American history.
Clearly this belittling and alienation of Russia post the fall of the Soviet Union has worked splendidly. We just haven’t broken them enough.
He’s earned the name Grover whether it’s actually him or not. And I’m 90% sure it’s him.
Earned the name Grover? on what grounds? For laughing at some of your ridiculous posts and calling you Putin (which I'm 91% sure you are him)?
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Murdering political opponents ?
You feeling queasy about that?
You familiar with a young American named Seth Rich?
No, I'm not familiar with him.
Yes, I'm more than 'queasy' about murdering political opponents.
Where are you going with this?
Hyper partisan. Not very bright. Predictably dumb personal attacks. Reminiscent of hickory
OMG, you're in deep on ridiculously stupid wingnut conspiracy theories! His family didn't appreciate that. Fox News was involved in spreading this fake news and settled with the Rich family for 7 figures. Rich was killed but it wasn't a political assassination. Putin has been involved in several political assassinations and there's little to no doubt about that.
Suicide by two gunshots in the back during a 'robbery ' when nothing was taken.
Rich was a data specialist for the DNC.
The cover up is massive. Unprecedented.
Believe what you wish.
Suicide?!? NO ONE claims it was a suicide; he was murdered. Cover up by who? Who do you think killed him? Mas, you are incredibly susceptible to believing ridiculous conspiracy theories.
I thought the Rich thing was that it was allegedly a robbery but nothing was taken off him.
Did he happen to know the Clintons?
I thought he lived in a basement of a DC pizza place that has no basement.
Here it is again: someone thinking it's in America's best interest for hundreds of thousands of people to die in a war.
The murder of Seth Rich occurred on July 10, 2016, at 4:20 a.m. in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C.[2] Rich died about an hour and a half after being shot twice in the back. The perpetrators were never apprehended; police suspected he had been the victim of an attempted robbery.[1][3]
The 27-year-old Rich was an employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), and his murder spawned several right-wing conspiracy theories,[1][4] including the false claim, contradicted by the law enforcement branches that investigated the murder, that Rich had been involved with the leaked DNC emails in 2016.[5][6] It was also contradicted by the July 2018 indictment of 12 Russian military intelligence agents for hacking the e-mail accounts and networks of Democratic Party officials[7] and by the U.S. intelligence community's conclusion the leaked DNC emails were part of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections.[5][6][8] Fact-checking websites like PolitiFact,[6][9] Snopes,[10] and FactCheck.org stated that the theories were false and unfounded.[5] The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and The Washington Post wrote that the promotion of these conspiracy theories was an example of fake news.[11][12][13]
Rich's family denounced the conspiracy theorists and said that those individuals were exploiting their son's death for political gain, and their spokesperson called the conspiracy theorists "disgusting sociopaths".[14][15][16] They requested a retraction and apology from Fox News after the network promoted the conspiracy theory,[17] and sent a cease and desist letter to the investigator Fox News used.[6][16][17] The investigator stated that he had no evidence to back up the claims which Fox News attributed to him.[5][6][18] Fox News issued a retraction, but did not apologize or publicly explain what went wrong.[19] In response, the Rich family sued Fox News in March 2018 for having engaged in "extreme and outrageous conduct" by fabricating the story defaming their son and thereby intentionally inflicting emotional distress on them.[20][21] Fox News reached a seven-figure settlement with the Rich family in October 2020.[22][23]
Like it or not, we've been in proxy wars with Russia since WWII ended. I'm not rejoicing at the deaths of so many people, but degredation of Russian/Soviet armed forces means less danger to the US.
Never has so much money, time, and effort gone into creating a narrative of 'misinformation ' by organizations paid to do just that, over a relatively inconsequential death on the mean streets of DC.
Try someplace other than Wikipedia occasionally.
You mean try one of your alt-right wingnut conspiracy spreading websites. You're exceptionally misinformed by them and your other "sources."
I get where you are coming from, and I don't consider you a bad person for having these beliefs, but I am trying to highlight exactly what they are and what they mean. So let's not use euphemisms. You and Outside Shooter think it benefits the US for over 100,000 average joe Russians to lose their lives fighting a stupid land war that Putin sent them to. I don't agree.
And if you think, like OS, that the destabilization of Russia is an unquestionably good thing, I'd suggest you review the history of the post Cold War era. Lots of bad unintended consequences out there.
Nah. Ball is in your court. I provided information, with links to actual news sites (lots of them). Your turn to try to provide some evidence to support your outlandish conspiracy theory.
But you’re not correctly characterizing those beliefs. The US (along with others) is helping Ukraine defend itself. For all intents and purposes no Russians would die if they didn’t cross the border and attack.
The argument is not that the US benefits from Russians dying. Your mischaracterization is based on the false notion that the choice is 1) support killing Russians or 2) have peace (as in a proxy war we’re actively helping create).
The actual choice is 1) support saving Ukrainian lives or 2) watch Ukrainians die and get conquered by Russia.
Thus the genesis of OS’s assertion is the debate within the US on whether or not the US should spend money and war assets to defend a democracy halfway around the world. OS asserts “an important aspect” is the economic and military cost to the most powerful enemy to democracy in the entire world. Russian Joes dying is a tragic consequence of Putin’s megalomania, not of our support.
That Russia is an archenemy to democracy goes far beyond this war. It includes all the resources they pour into destabilizing all democracies around the world. For this reason harming Russia benefits us. If and when they turn over a new leaf, the free world will freely support them. Russia was once considered part of Europe. Russia allied with us against the Nazis. We harbor no inherent malice toward Russia or Russians.
I suggest you read what DANC and OS wrote. I’m not mischaracterizing it at all. DANC, to his credit, lays it out. For example, you write:
The argument is not that the US benefits from Russians dying.
But that is exactly the argument put forward in the two posts I characterized.
Basically, you’re trying to justify why it’s not America’s fault. But that’s not the issue we are discussing.
By the way, I’ve never argued that this is not the fault of Russia’s leaders. Not once.
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That’s not the actual choice. Far more Ukrainians would be alive today had Putin’s initial assault on Kyiv been successful and he installed a puppet government or annexed Ukraine outright.
That is unless you believe his goal for taking Ukraine was a genocide of the population. But invasions of Georgia and Crimea with substantially less resistance show that is not Putin’s desire.
What the war is really over is Ukrainian sovereignty and the question the West has to ask is how much is that worth to us and how much are we willing to undermine it for the sake of peace.
I don't see bleeding Russia as something I want to see. That said, Russia IS a major hacker of US businesses, government, and NGOs. And we know they fund extremists in the US, pouring money and resources to both sides of Ferguson for one example. Russian jets routinely fly at our borders, planes, and warships.
So I don't want poor Russians to die at the same point the Russia is clearly carrying out anti American activities that predate this invasion. Do we have any idea if we told Russia, "take Ukraine, on by us" that they would back off in other areas? So I don't like the deaths but if every Russian tanks and plane were destroyed I would be happy. Russian resources spent there are resources not hacking.
Has it been more than 24 hours yet?
Putin needs a Pro Russian govt in place in Keiv. That's the one and only goal. This has never been about slivers of land. Trump is lost and absorbed with very short term thinking, and is playing to a domestic audience.
Putin needs a Pro Russian govt in place in Keiv. That's the one and only goal. This has never been about slivers of land. Trump is lost and absorbed with very short term thinking, and is playing to a domestic audience.
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I read both before I posted. DANC’s post is unequivocally contrary to your assertion:
OS’s is open to interpretation and only he knows what he thinks but I assume he’s simply arguing that Russian war weariness will be Putin’s undoing because Putin couldn’t care less how many Joes he sacrifices.
In fact, nowhere do I see either reveling in Russian deaths. My point stands.
Correct... eventual degradation of support for Putin through war weariness in Russia, and also them facing economic realities, since their 3rd world economy cannot support the scale of their effort.
The ideal solution is a peace agreement, but not solely on Russia's terms but on terms acceptable to Ukraine. One that doesn't grease the skids for the next Russian incursion into a neighboring sovereign nation. Poland certainly thinks that they are the next Ukraine. If you don't think that there will be a next Russian incursion into a neighboring sovereign nation, you aren't paying attention.
I disagree that these are 100,000 average joe Russians. If reports are to be believed, many are dregs of Russian society, having come from jails and prisons and in it for money only. Mercenaries. Of course, you have some patriotic Russians join up and many lose their idealism.
It's not just people Russia is losing. They are losing/have lost much of their Soviet Union arsenal built up over decades. We're also seeing their strengths and weaknesses that our military can exploit, if we have to.
The question you have to ask is - are we the ones causing all these deaths? No, we're not. These people have been fighting each other for centuries. But is it to our advantage that these deaths are happeing? Yes. Those are just unemotional facts that have nothing to do with sympathy for those deaths.
To make you think I'm even more bloodthirsty, these words from my Drill Sergeant in Basic told us:
"Your job isn't to die for your country. Your job is to make the other poor son-of-a-bitch die for his country."
Being just 18 years old at the time, I never thought of it that way. But it definitely put a new perspective on things, for me.
Nobody cared that Harold, the Anglo-Saxon king, had just defeated the Viking king Harald mere days before he marched south and lost the Battle of Hastings - they just remember William the Conqueror won the battle and changed the direction and culture of England and the UK forever. William was undoubtedly glad his enemy had been weakened beforehand.
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For some people, including our Founding Fathers, there are some things worse than death. Such as living without freedom.
As I posted, your 'sources' and 'fact checkers' are nothing more than political paid vendors to spin the Fed narrative, then quote each other. 'Actual PAID(borrowed$) to carry the narrative..(Politico $8M)...NBC,MSNBC,Times, the CIA Post...
I don't disregard the court rulings. Fox has been stumbling around quite a bit since the old man handed off control to his spawn.
Is that supposed to be some sort of gotcha?
If Russia invaded America, I would want the American government to respond.
When Russia invades Ukraine, I am fully supportive of the Ukranian government responding.
When Ukraine’s response is entirely dependent on third parties, those parties have to weigh Ukraine’s defense and territorial integrity with what is best for themselves.
Now that you’re caught up on the debate. Do you have anything substantive to offer?
Leaving out the morality of doing nothing, my argument is the US is better off with Russia and China in their countries and not expanding their empires. Deciding to go to war against a super power requires a very high standard, but if the country attacked is willing to fight to keep those two (and others) at home, it helps the US. Any resources taken by Putin will end up in weapons pointed at the US. Any men will end up in military units pointed at the US. Any countries taken will be absorbed out of our potential trading block and into the Russian/Chinese trading block.
