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Thoughts and Prayers - Part 2 - No Gun Discussion

alax2

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I read the post below on Thoughts and Prayers just after I had read Pence's tweet expressing his thoughts and prayers to the victims. Frankly, I am now very tired of that phrase and think it is a shallow throw-away line by Pence. I went back over some of his old tweets and comments. He has expressed thoughts and prayers to:

(all of these on multiple events)
hurricane victims (various times and for various locations)
fire victims (California)
flood victims
military (both deceased and alive)
first responders (including police and firemen separately and together)
shooting victims (multiple schools - Las Vegas - an office....)
the family of Otto Warmbier
the family of Edward Jackson
Amtrak crash victims
victims of the holocaust and Israel in general
On and on

Unless he is spending hours on his knees every night, the thoughts and prayers are fleeting.

It just bugs me at this point.
 
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“Thoughts and Prayers” is basically saying I am not willing to do anything tangible about any given situation. Think about topics that thousands if not millions of people have prayed about throughout history that has not changed. World peace, abortion, cancer treatment, natural disasters, gun violence, pedophilia, famine, you could go on and on. What impact does prayer have on any of it? Like you, I’m tired of it. I do not claim to have all the answers, but to change outcomes you must take action.
 
I read the post below on Thoughts and Prayers just after I had read Pence's tweet expressing his thoughts and prayers to the victims. Frankly, I am now very tired of that phrase and think it is a shallow throw-away line by Pence. I went back over some of his old tweets and comments. He has expressed thoughts and prayers to:

(all of these on multiple events)
hurricane victims (various times and for various locations)
fire victims (California)
flood victims
military (both deceased and alive)
first responders (including police and firemen separately and together)
shooting victims (multiple schools - Las Vegas - an office....)
the family of Otto Warmbier
the family of Edward Jackson
Amtrak crash victims
victims of the holocaust and Israel in general
On and on

Unless he is spending hours on his knees every night, the thoughts and prayers are fleeting.

It just bugs me at this point.
He doesn't say those things for you. He prays ostensibly to whatever God he believes in for the comfort of the grieving and the care of the soul which has passed on. The 'thoughts' are mentioned to let those grieving know that he, among others are not only cognizant of the loss, but attempting to imagine the pain of such a loss. It's a gesture we make in our society in an attempt to share the burden of various painful events. What is wrong with you?
 
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He doesn't say those things for you. He prays ostensibly to whatever God he believes in for the comfort of the grieving and the care of the soul which has passed on. The 'thoughts' are mentioned to let those grieving know that he, among others are not only cognizant of the loss, but attempting to imagine the pain of such a loss. It's a gesture we make in our society in an attempt to share the burden of various painful events. What is wrong with you?


I know he doesn't say those things for me. I get that. However, if I was one of those people I would think I don't want his thoughts and prayers. I have my own spiritual source and people that really know me. What I would want from him is some type of action statement. Don't tell me your are thinking about me and then not do a damn thing. Especially because most of these events are repeats. Not one-off incidences.
 
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You're not those people, though. I'm fairly confident quite a few people find his (and others') thoughts and prayers welcome.

That may be true. Just frustrates me that we, as a country, say these things and then the issue disappears for awhile, happens again, and we offer more thoughts and prayers and still don't do anything.
 
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I know he doesn't say those things for me. I get that. However, if I was one of those people I would think I don't want his thoughts and prayers. I have my own spiritual source and people that really know me. What I would want from him is some type of action statement. Don't tell me your are thinking about me and then not do a damn thing. Especially because most of these events are repeats. Not one-off incidences.
If we recognize the real problem lies with the society we've created for ourselves, and not blame inanimate objects, then we can work together to find solutions. I am all in for making compromises as long as we can agree this is a "we" problem and not a "they" problem.
 
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If we recognize the real problem lies with the society we've created for ourselves, and not blame inanimate objects, then we can work together to find solutions. I am all in for making compromises as long as we can agree this is a "we" problem and not a "they" problem.

I was not simply referring to the shootings, but I agree with you with regards to guns.

As a long time Republican, I understand his comment, but I think my party has lost a lot of its heart. It just seems that we say the empathetic thing but then, with our action, or inaction, we are cold hearted.
 
That may be true. Just frustrates me that we, as a country, say these things and then the issue disappears for awhile, happens again, and we offer more thoughts and prayers and still don't do anything.
I get it. Think and pray in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster.
 
If we recognize the real problem lies with the society we've created for ourselves, and not blame inanimate objects, then we can work together to find solutions. I am all in for making compromises as long as we can agree this is a "we" problem and not a "they" problem.
This is the "No Gun Discussion" thread, per OP.
 
If we recognize the real problem lies with the society we've created for ourselves, and not blame inanimate objects, then we can work together to find solutions. I am all in for making compromises as long as we can agree this is a "we" problem and not a "they" problem.


The real problem is most certainly ourselves.
 
I read the post below on Thoughts and Prayers just after I had read Pence's tweet expressing his thoughts and prayers to the victims. Frankly, I am now very tired of that phrase and think it is a shallow throw-away line by Pence. I went back over some of his old tweets and comments. He has expressed thoughts and prayers to:

(all of these on multiple events)
hurricane victims (various times and for various locations)
fire victims (California)
flood victims
military (both deceased and alive)
first responders (including police and firemen separately and together)
shooting victims (multiple schools - Las Vegas - an office....)
the family of Otto Warmbier
the family of Edward Jackson
Amtrak crash victims
victims of the holocaust and Israel in general
On and on

Unless he is spending hours on his knees every night, the thoughts and prayers are fleeting.

It just bugs me at this point.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic with you, alax . . . generally I think this is more gloss than substance. It's like every TV program that has cop in it uses the same "I'm sorry for your loss" every time a cop talks with a person who just had someone they love murdered.

And yet, I gotta relay a story about what happened yesterday and today. The work day yesterday started with an email from a senior attorney at work; she was on her way to the hospital because her brother was in the ICU with viral sepsis, probably a complication from the flu. I told her not to worry we'd take care of the clients in her absence, she oughta just take care of her brother, and her family.

She responded by saying "this viral sepsis stuff is scary . . . thoughts and prayers would be most appreciated . . .". This was long before the shooting in Florida . . . so that wasn't a prompt.

The thing is, she's Jewish. I've pondered her use of the phrase "thoughts and prayers" a bit for the last 30 hours, and I've wondered whether she tailored that for me because she knows I'm a Christian. Or, maybe, just maybe . . . she sincerely wanted the support of even something as vague and unscientific as "thoughts and prayers". It sure felt like the latter to me at the time.

I had a hard time concentrating on work yesterday, so I went to pick up a ring that we'd had made for MrsSope, and then went home . . . and spent the day getting ready to hand over the Valentines Day mandatory chocolate (specifications: 60% or more cacao) and ring. (This is what passes for Valentines Day romance in Sope House; I HATE the fake holiday.) We spent a normal evening, slept well and got up to go to work this morning . . .

. . . and no reports from the attorney or anyone else about the attorney's brother. Until about 10 am . . . brother had died yesterday. As happens when I hear these things, time stopped for a bit . . .

. . . I looked up the obit on the website of the funeral home. Atlanta has a sizable Jewish population, so the funeral home is focused on funerals for Jews. The obit was what you'd typically see - all the way through how much this guy was a UGA football fan - and there were a lot of brief, sincere consolation messages from friends and family of the brother.

Now, some folks have a hard time with these sorts of condolences. Christians sometimes say things like "oh, he's with Jesus now", or "he's in a better place" . . . as often as not those condolences don't quite hit the spot, as they seem to be more for deflecting having to deal with the very real grief that the widow or widower, or children, of the deceased is feeling than helping with it. (We heard a few comments like that a couple of weeks ago at my aunt's funeral in Tupelo.) I didn't see any of that awkwardness on this obit page . . . in fact I was kinda interested in the condolences messages because they seemed so down to earth . . .

. . . the message that caught my eye was this one: "May your memories of him be blessings for you". My first thought was that this was a very nice sentiment . . . until it dawned on me that memories aren't always necessarily blessings. It could be that some widows or widowers didn't have a pleasant partner . . . or perhaps worse, they weren't a pleasant partner to the deceased. So I've concluded that you've got to know something about the relationship between the two before you can offer that kind of condolence . . .

. . . for better or worse, one of the ways that we live beyond our own span of years is in the memories of those who survive us . . .

. . . so I hear ya, alax, I really do. I get annoyed at the rote, pre-programmed recitation of "acceptable" churchy language. Until it's real. And I really can't determine that for others, when it's real for them when they say that stuff or when it's real when someone hears it . . . whether or not it was sincere when said. So I just don't judge that any more . . . .
 
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I read the post below on Thoughts and Prayers just after I had read Pence's tweet expressing his thoughts and prayers to the victims. Frankly, I am now very tired of that phrase and think it is a shallow throw-away line by Pence. I went back over some of his old tweets and comments. He has expressed thoughts and prayers to:

(all of these on multiple events)
hurricane victims (various times and for various locations)
fire victims (California)
flood victims
military (both deceased and alive)
first responders (including police and firemen separately and together)
shooting victims (multiple schools - Las Vegas - an office....)
the family of Otto Warmbier
the family of Edward Jackson
Amtrak crash victims
victims of the holocaust and Israel in general
On and on

Unless he is spending hours on his knees every night, the thoughts and prayers are fleeting.

It just bugs me at this point.

I don’t get your point. The press and public demand a public comment from our leaders when stuff happens. We force them to say SOMETHING. In the context of the events that prompt public comment, the more benign the better. Focus should not be on the politician. Some kind of action statement would focus attention In the wrong place. I can’t think of anything more benign than “thoughts and prayers”. I’m surprised any one takes issue with it.
 
You make my point. It is a forced benign pointless statement especially when made over and over again by a politician. I guess I was hoping for something meaningful and to me that is a promise of action to help prevent such an event again or a promise to help or a promise to do something. And then some follow up.
 
Yeah, I'm sympathetic with you, alax . . . generally I think this is more gloss than substance. It's like every TV program that has cop in it uses the same "I'm sorry for your loss" every time a cop talks with a person who just had someone they love murdered.

And yet, I gotta relay a story about what happened yesterday and today. The work day yesterday started with an email from a senior attorney at work; she was on her way to the hospital because her brother was in the ICU with viral sepsis, probably a complication from the flu. I told her not to worry we'd take care of the clients in her absence, she oughta just take care of her brother, and her family.

She responded by saying "this viral sepsis stuff is scary . . . thoughts and prayers would be most appreciated . . .". This was long before the shooting in Florida . . . so that wasn't a prompt.

The thing is, she's Jewish. I've pondered her use of the phrase "thoughts and prayers" a bit for the last 30 hours, and I've wondered whether she tailored that for me because she knows I'm a Christian. Or, maybe, just maybe . . . she sincerely wanted the support of even something as vague and unscientific as "thoughts and prayers". It sure felt like the latter to me at the time.

I had a hard time concentrating on work yesterday, so I went to pick up a ring that we'd had made for MrsSope, and then went home . . . and spent the day getting ready to hand over the Valentines Day mandatory chocolate (specifications: 60% or more cacao) and ring. (This is what passes for Valentines Day romance in Sope House; I HATE the fake holiday.) We spent a normal evening, slept well and got up to go to work this morning . . .

. . . and no reports from the attorney or anyone else about the attorney's brother. Until about 10 am . . . brother had died yesterday. As happens when I hear these things, time stopped for a bit . . .

. . . I looked up the obit on the website of the funeral home. Atlanta has a sizable Jewish population, so the funeral home is focused on funerals for Jews. The obit was what you'd typically see - all the way through how much this guy was a UGA football fan - and there were a lot of brief, sincere consolation messages from friends and family of the brother.

Now, some folks have a hard time with these sorts of condolences. Christians sometimes say things like "oh, he's with Jesus now", or "he's in a better place" . . . as often as not those condolences don't quite hit the spot, as they seem to be more for deflecting having to deal with the very real grief that the widow or widower, or children, of the deceased is feeling than helping with it. (We heard a few comments like that a couple of weeks ago at my aunt's funeral in Tupelo.) I didn't see any of that awkwardness on this obit page . . . in fact I was kinda interested in the condolences messages because they seemed so down to earth . . .

. . . the message that caught my eye was this one: "May your memories of him be blessings for you". My first thought was that this was a very nice sentiment . . . until it dawned on me that memories aren't always necessarily blessings. It could be that some widows or widowers didn't have a pleasant partner . . . or perhaps worse, they weren't a pleasant partner to the deceased. So I've concluded that you've got to know something about the relationship between the two before you can offer that kind of condolence . . .

. . . for better or worse, one of the ways that we live beyond our own span of years is in the memories of those who survive us . . .

. . . so I hear ya, alax, I really do. I get annoyed at the rote, pre-programmed recitation of "acceptable" churchy language. Until it's real. And I really can't determine that for others, when it's real for them when the say that stuff or when it's real when someone hears it . . . whether or not it was sincere when said. So I just don't judge that any more . . . .


I hear ya. And you are right. I am probably really jaded in that I am not sure I really believe Pence. And coming from Pence who has the power to make change, such a “benign” (as stated by Co Hoosier) statement is unsatisfactory to me.

Maybe I am having trouble with a Christian who, to me, espouses very unChristian (as defined by me) positions.
 
I hear ya. And you are right. I am probably really jaded in that I am not sure I really believe Pence. And coming from Pence who has the power to make change, such a “benign” (as stated by Co Hoosier) statement is unsatisfactory to me.

Maybe I am having trouble with a Christian who, to me, espouses very unChristian (as defined by me) positions.

Pence is hard for me to read. I've never met the guy, but during law school I knew one of his mentors (in the law firm he worked for fresh out of law school). She's a terrific human being aside from - and perhaps because of, I can't say - her being a devout evangelical Christian. Part of me says Pence is a phony, that he's given himself over to social conservatism for the political power it offers, and then part of me just can't be that cynical given the folks I know who know Pence well on a personal basis. And then I consider their politics and how they differ from mine, and how my law school colleague's Christianity differs from mine, and then I consider that perhaps all of those are correct depending on one's perspective . . . .
 
Pence is hard for me to read. I've never met the guy, but during law school I knew one of his mentors (in the law firm he worked for fresh out of law school). She's a terrific human being aside from - and perhaps because of, I can't say - her being a devout evangelical Christian. Part of me says Pence is a phony, that he's given himself over to social conservatism for the political power it offers, and then part of me just can't be that cynical given the folks I know who know Pence well on a personal basis. And then I consider their politics and how they differ from mine, and how my law school colleague's Christianity differs from mine, and then I consider that perhaps all of those are correct depending on one's perspective . . . .
A friend of mine, a very liberal Democrat, that I went to high school with, was a fraternity brother of Pence and Hanover College. He says Pence is exactly who he seems to be - a devout evangelical Christian. He likes him as a person, but HATES him as a politician. I think Pence is an authentic Christian - as far as what he thinks a Christian is or should be. Whether that is a positive or a negative thing is up for each individual to decide. For me, he's not who I want as President either.
 
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And I spent 20+ years practicing in Indy. Also listened to his radio show. He isn’t my cup of tea.

I think he is opportunistic, self righteous, a calculating self promoter and has his own version of Christianity.

For example, he endorsed Cruz. But now hooks up with Trump. He is a family man who won’t eat dinner with a woman without his wife there yet hooks up with a man married three times. His support is from millionaires but claims to be a man of the people. He is a “Christian first(as he defines it), a conservative second (an ideologue), and Republican third (yes, but he knows that he needs to be a Republican first to do what he wants). He is power hungry.

He is a devot Christian, but a scary one in my opinion because his politics are driven to create a society in his vision of Christianity.

I will stop.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to go off.
 
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You make my point. It is a forced benign pointless statement especially when made over and over again by a politician. I guess I was hoping for something meaningful and to me that is a promise of action to help prevent such an event again or a promise to help or a promise to do something. And then some follow up.

Guess I disagree. I’m good with politicians staying unnoticed at these times. I know many want them to do more. This is all about victim comfort and dignity, not about a politician racing to the camera.
 
And I spent 20+ years practicing in Indy. Also listened to his radio show. He isn’t my cup of tea.

I think he is opportunistic, self righteous, a calculating self promoter and has his own scary version of Christianity.

For example, he endorsed Cruz. But now hooks up with Trump. He is a family man who won’t eat dinner with a woman without his wife there yet hooks up with a man married three times. His support is from millionaires but claims to be a man of the people. He is a “Christian first(as he defines it), a conservative second (an ideologue), and Republican third (yes, but he knows that he needs to be a Republican first to do what he wants). He is power hungry.

He is. Christian, but a scary one in my opinion.

I will stop.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to go off.

I guess we are turning this thread into one about Pence. I have never bought into the theory that somebody should be judged by their associates— or who they vote for.

Let’s turn your argument inside out. Should Trump get credit for chosing to be associated with a devout believer? Why do you and others see Trump as soiling Pense, but Pense can’t be a positive influence on Trump ?
 
Why do you and others see Trump as soiling Pense, but Pense can’t be a positive influence on Trump ?
Because it's not working?

Pence is a full partner in his soiling. Trump doesn't think he needs improvement.
 
The thread started, in part, about Pence because he is the one with the constant thought and prayers.

Anyway, I understand your point but I don’t see the influence of Pence in Trump’s positions, words or actions. I am open to examples. I just see a man who appears to be a Trump sychophant to better position himself for something bigger.
 
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Guess I disagree. I’m good with politicians staying unnoticed at these times. I know many want them to do more. This is all about victim comfort and dignity, not about a politician racing to the camera.


I am not saying he needs to rush to the cameras. That is exactly what the thoughts and prayers statement is - a rush to the camera. I will find that statement as an acceptable first one if he would follow up with something meaningfully. He was tweeted more in the last 24 hours about North Korea than the shooting and ways we should move forward as a country from that.
 
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I am not saying he needs to rush to the cameras. That is exactly what the thoughts and prayers statement is - a rush to the camera. I will that statement as anna ceptable first one if he would follow up with something meaningfully. He was tweeted more in the last 24 hours about North Korea than the shooting and ways we should move forward as a country from that.
Let’s say you’re the President or Vice President, what do you say to comfort family and friends of the victims? Or do you think it’s not part of your job description?
 
Let’s say you’re the President or Vice President, what do you say to comfort family and friends of the victims? Or do you think it’s not part of your job description?

Shooting
I am sorry for your loss, and while I cannot replace your child or ease your pain, I try to honor the memory of your child and will use the power of my office to find ways to make sure this doesn’t happen again.

Hurricane

The hardship you have suffered and continue to suffer should not have to be endured. I am asking FEMA to immediately ....

Military
I honor the sacrifice of you son by making sure that our cause is just and right.

It is 11:15 pm and I am short of speech writers at the moment. So “thoughts and prayers” is fine over and over again.

I just think it is shallow when used that often and in so many situations. Others don’t. That is what makes the world go round.
 
ways we should move forward as a country from that.

I think you are expecting too much from Pense--or anybody in his position. Nobody could describe a "way forward" from yet another mass murder in a statement following the event. If you appointed a blue ribbon panel to look at the issue, the way forward (assuming there is one) would be scores, maybe hundreds, of pages.

I'm still good with "thoughts and prayers". If Pense chooses to meet with the families and survivors in person, that is the time to provide a better response and I don't need to know what it would be.
 
By the way - just to be snarky - our Vice President’s last name is Pence. Night all. :)
 
I am asking FEMA to immediately ....

These kinds of statements always burned me up. FEMA immediately responds whether an official asks it to or not. I prefer "thoughts and prayers" over "I've placed the full resources of the government to help local law enforcement". That goes without saying.
 
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