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This might be an interesting topic for discussion. DOJ open to considering safe injection sites

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mcmurtry66

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Mar 14, 2019
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Of course the idea is to reduce overdoses; but man this seems like a tacit endorsement of drug use. If opioid use/abuse is the issue why would we subsidize safe centers to do drugs? Why wouldn't we fund more MAT centers to treat the addiction? Talk about NIMBY. Part of So Fla (Delray and others) are already like the Walking Dead with the amount of addicts, imagine having an injection site on the corner of your street.

I don't see the logic here, but thought it might make for an interesting debate/discussion
 
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I was always on board with needle exchanges to cut down on AIDS and other disease transmission. I believe many of these locations would also offer options for counseling (I might be wrong on that).

Injection sites seem like a bridge too far.
 
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mcmurtry66 said:

Of course the idea is to reduce overdoses; but man this seems like a tacit endorsement of drug use. If opioid use/abuse is the issue why would we subsidize safe centers to do drugs? Why wouldn't we fund more MAT centers to treat the addiction? Talk about NIMBY. Part of So Fla (Delray and others) are already like the Walking Dead with the amount of addicts, imagine having an injection site on the corner of your street.

I don't see the logic here, but thought it might make for an interesting debate/discussion
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If you’re going to do that why not just give people actual opioids that CVS could fill rather than fentanyl or heroin that they bought out of a brown paper bag on the street with no idea as to what’s actually in it?
 
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mcmurtry66 said:

Of course the idea is to reduce overdoses; but man this seems like a tacit endorsement of drug use. If opioid use/abuse is the issue why would we subsidize safe centers to do drugs? Why wouldn't we fund more MAT centers to treat the addiction? Talk about NIMBY. Part of So Fla (Delray and others) are already like the Walking Dead with the amount of addicts, imagine having an injection site on the corner of your street.

I don't see the logic here, but thought it might make for an interesting debate/discussion
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The answer to all your "why" questions is because they are addicts. We need outside the box thinking.

I believe the safe injection sites are set up to double as counseling and treatment intake facilities, as well.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
The answer to all your "why" questions is because they are addicts. We need outside the box thinking.

I believe the safe injection sites are set up to double as counseling and treatment intake facilities, as well.
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I don't know that that's true. It doesn't sound like treatment to me. From what limited I've read the objective behind them is to reduce overdose deaths. Now it obviously isn't a stretch to believe/assume that there would be a counseling component to it; but logic dictates that there are some inherent obstacles to same. Are you counseling the guy while he's holding a crack pipe? My suspicion is that he/she wouldn't be a sympathetic ear in that condition.

It's a different approach than Methadone, which obviously is aimed toward helping people recover their lives. Methadone I get; this not so much.
 
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Just make it all legal. regulate it. tax it. That would solve the actual crimes part of drugs.
 
mrhighlife said:
Just make it all legal. regulate it. tax it. That would solve the actual crimes part of drugs.
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Well yeah. Citizens United solved the crime part of some kinds of campaign donations. Didn't make the problem better. In fact, probably made it worse.

Just b/c drugs are legal doesn't mean people aren't going to lie, cheat, and steal to get their hands on them. Whether they're buying them from a dealer at a car wash (specific enough for you all?) or from a fancy "drug" store. Also, as we've learned from legal weed, shit appears to be just as expensive as the black market. Yay capitalism.
 
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mrhighlife said:
Do you have any stats backing that crime would be worse than it is now? I'm genuinely asking.
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no, that's impossible to answer, but you have to assume those strung out on drugs won't be holding down jobs, I guess a lot depends on how far the government wants to go, I would assume you could manufacture heroin real cheap if it was legalized
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
The answer to all your "why" questions is because they are addicts. We need outside the box thinking.

I believe the safe injection sites are set up to double as counseling and treatment intake facilities, as well.
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That's my understanding as well.

I'd assume that someone going to one of those sites is essentially taking the first step toward recovery. IIRC, no one whose an addict quits opioids and other highly addictive drugs cold turkey so giving them a relatively safe environment to scale down makes sense.
 
Ohio Guy said:
That's my understanding as well.

I'd assume that someone going to one of those sites is essentially taking the first step toward recovery. IIRC, no one whose an addict quits opioids and other highly addictive drugs cold turkey so giving them a relatively safe environment to scale down makes sense.
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That's the point of methadone clinics
 
Ohio Guy said:
That's my understanding as well.

I'd assume that someone going to one of those sites is essentially taking the first step toward recovery. IIRC, no one whose an addict quits opioids and other highly addictive drugs cold turkey so giving them a relatively safe environment to scale down makes sense.
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It may have been on 60 minutes or just the evening news one night, but one of these clinics has been set up in New York and so far, the results were positive. You basically go in they give you whatever drug you want but you must take counseling and cannot leave until the drugs have cleared your system
 
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kurt cloverdales said:
It may have been on 60 minutes or just the evening news one night, but one of these clinics has been set up in New York and so far, the results were positive. You basically go in they give you whatever drug you want but you must take counseling and cannot leave until the drugs have cleared your system
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Yeah I'm reading about one that opened in Nov in NY. Doesn't sound too bad. Med pros administer - addiction specialists on hand for counseling/etc. I think marketing will be important. They are being called Overdose Prevention Centers. I'm not sure that will resonate with the public. Opioid Treatment Centers sounds better - but maybe that's me. Not sure you need to focus on the safe drug use as much as intervention
 
IUCrazy2 said:
Its equity...like providing crack pipes to those who have been the victims of systemic racism in the U.S. ahead of those white folks.

(I honestly did not dig into that headline too much, but how on earth is helping people to get high fighting any kind of racism?)
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I thought crack was not even anyones drug of choice anymore. I guess its making a comeback!
 
mcmurtry66 said:
Yeah I'm reading about one that opened in Nov in NY. Doesn't sound too bad. Med pros administer - addiction specialists on hand for counseling/etc. I think marketing will be important. They are being called Overdose Prevention Centers. I'm not sure that will resonate with the public. Opioid Treatment Centers sounds better - but maybe that's me. Not sure you need to focus on the safe drug use as much as intervention
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the problem I see with this approach is the scale, the number of addicts across the country compared to the number of drug counselors and medical professionals available to treat them probably wouldn't match up
 
Not seeing this as a good idea....i am pretty progressive too (at least by IN standards)
 
mcmurtry66 said:

Of course the idea is to reduce overdoses; but man this seems like a tacit endorsement of drug use. If opioid use/abuse is the issue why would we subsidize safe centers to do drugs? Why wouldn't we fund more MAT centers to treat the addiction? Talk about NIMBY. Part of So Fla (Delray and others) are already like the Walking Dead with the amount of addicts, imagine having an injection site on the corner of your street.

I don't see the logic here, but thought it might make for an interesting debate/discussion
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I’m sure this program is well-intentioned and designed to produce outcomes other than jobs but one has to question the wisdom of having the government subsidize the use of illegal drugs.
 
Spartans9312 said:
I’m sure this program is well-intentioned and designed to produce outcomes other than jobs but one has to question the wisdom of having the government subsidize the use of illegal drugs.
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Yeah and where do the drugs come from? What if the addict wants to leave while he's f*ucked up. Is he confined? Liability issues. I don't know. There are many issues. That said I gave it short shrift and after reading a little there are pros as well.

I remember our old meth clinic called D.A.R.T. Drug Alcohol Rehab and Treatment. The place looked like Best Buy on black Friday. I can't imagine what these places will end up looking like
 
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mcmurtry66 said:
Yeah and where do the drugs come from? What if the addict wants to leave while he's f*ucked up. Is he confined? Liability issues. I don't know. There are many issues. That said I gave it short shrift and after reading a little there are pros as well.

I remember our old meth clinic called D.A.R.T. Drug Alcohol Rehab and Treatment. The place looked like Best Buy on black Friday. I can't imagine what these places will end up looking like
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Most of us are well aware of the studies that seem to indicate that this kind of operation reduces the medical costs of treating various diseases associated with drug use, like HIV and hepatitis variants but it seems that is a case of knowing “the cost of everything and the value of nothing”.
 
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Spartans9312 said:
Most of us are well aware of the studies that seem to indicate that this kind of operation reduces the medical costs of treating various diseases associated with drug use, like HIV and hepatitis variants but it seems that is a case of knowing “the cost of everything and the value of nothing”.
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I agree with Goat though. It is out of the box and I'm always up for trying shit
 
Spartans9312 said:
Thanks to the taxpayers, the communities where these products are distributed are doubly victimized.
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Yeah, that is my issue. I don't want something like this in my backyard so I sure as heck do not think it is right to put it in a lower economic community. It is like another magnet for people who are up to no good.
 
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IUCrazy2 said:
Yeah, that is my issue. I don't want something like this in my backyard so I sure as heck do not think it is right to put it in a lower economic community. It is like another magnet for people who are up to no good.
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The community needs a critical mass of people addicted to drugs to be selected. This already high number of addicts is maintained, if not increased, by people wanting to do something and enticing still more addicts into the community by handing out free needles and crack pipes.
 
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IUCrazy2 said:
Yeah, that is my issue. I don't want something like this in my backyard so I sure as heck do not think it is right to put it in a lower economic community. It is like another magnet for people who are up to no good.
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right doing nothing but arresting people has been very effective
 
mcmurtry66 said:
I agree with Goat though. It is out of the box and I'm always up for trying shit
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This comes down to how people view addiction. If it nothing more than a character failing, it is a bad idea. If it is a medical problem, it is a good idea. It is a way to try to get help to people that need it.

Obviously I am in the latter group.
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
This comes down to how people view addiction. If it nothing more than a character failing, it is a bad idea. If it is a medical problem, it is a good idea. It is a way to try to get help to people that need it.

Obviously I am in the latter group.
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In a vacuum I agree with you, Marv. And I'm not for criminalizing addiction - that's why I've always thought the drug courts were great. That being said there are attendant and unintended consequences - crime follows addiction. So while these centers could be a good idea it's almost inevitable that crime will follow in some form or fashion. How to remedy that is lost on me. I always talk about it but Delray Beach Fla is a perfect example - and it's really just counseling/rehab centers not meth clinics or these things but crime is concentrated there compared to many neighboring locales that don't have the same focus/mission
 
mcmurtry66 said:
In a vacuum I agree with you, Marv. And I'm not for criminalizing addiction - that's why I've always thought the drug courts were great. That being said there are attendant and unintended consequences - crime follows addiction. So while these centers could be a good idea it's almost inevitable that crime will follow in some form or fashion. How to remedy that is lost on me. I always talk about it but Delray Beach Fla is a perfect example - and it's really just counseling/rehab centers not meth clinics or these things but crime is concentrated there compared to many neighboring locales that don't have the same focus/mission
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Simple, the feds provide grants to up patrols near the sites.
 
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kurt cloverdales said:
right doing nothing but arresting people has been very effective
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So you would like this in your neighborhood to help out right? If it is a helpful good thing, reach out to your county commissioners and city planners and let them know you want it in the area, as close to your house as possible.

Practice that equity y'all are always talking about.
 
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IUCrazy2 said:
So you would like this in your neighborhood to help out right? If it is a helpful good thing, reach out to your county commissioners and city planners and let them know you want it in the area, as close to your house as possible.

Practice that equity y'all are always talking about.
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they couldn't afford to put one in my neighborhood, wouldn't be cost efficient
 
Ohio Guy said:
That's my understanding as well.

I'd assume that someone going to one of those sites is essentially taking the first step toward recovery. IIRC, no one whose an addict quits opioids and other highly addictive drugs cold turkey so giving them a relatively safe environment to scale down makes sense.
Click to expand...

That's the entire premise behind MAT, which is the gold standard of care these days for treating substance use disorder. Abstinence-based methods went out of favor years ago, even in most residential residential settings.

Marvin the Martian said:
This comes down to how people view addiction. If it nothing more than a character failing, it is a bad idea. If it is a medical problem, it is a good idea. It is a way to try to get help to people that need it.

Obviously I am in the latter group.
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I don't get it, how is this trying to help? How exactly do you expect people to get treatment as they are using? You cannot get effective counseling and other treatment services when you are under the influence.
 
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mcmurtry66 said:
I don't know that that's true. It doesn't sound like treatment to me. From what limited I've read the objective behind them is to reduce overdose deaths. Now it obviously isn't a stretch to believe/assume that there would be a counseling component to it; but logic dictates that there are some inherent obstacles to same. Are you counseling the guy while he's holding a crack pipe? My suspicion is that he/she wouldn't be a sympathetic ear in that condition.

It's a different approach than Methadone, which obviously is aimed toward helping people recover their lives. Methadone I get; this not so much.
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Right. Nobody who is going to the a “safe injection site” for their hit would be seeking treatment.

We are building a huge population of service resistant street people. A life of being high with no responsibility has a lot of appeal. Treatment is not on their radar. Since we do not view addiction as a crime, and we can’t involuntarily confine or treat them, we have decided to support their self-destructive addiction. When you subsidize certain behavior, you’ll get more if it.

But I feel a lot better knowing that our giant corporations and institutions fight all of this with diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts in their ivory towers.
 
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