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The Kentucky Constitution Protects Abortion

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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The trial court judge issued a temporary injunction at 10 am today.

- trigger laws are an unconstitutional delegation of authority and vague about when and who enforces
- equal protection (dads versus moms)
- Kentucky Constitution protects privacy to greater extent than the Federal
- Kentucky Constitution prohibits using Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” - violates religious freedom of citizens

Turns out I knew the AG, one lawyer for the AG, one lawyer for the plaintiffs and one judge.

My guess is the notice of appeal has already been filed (or will be e-filed by midnight)

read if you wanna - https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11ed-b633-9f6ed579816e/62dacdc2baaf9.pdf.pdf
 
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MyTeamIsOnTheFloor said:
The trial court judge issued a temporary injunction at 10 am today.

- trigger laws are an unconstitutional delegation of authority and vague about when and who enforces
- equal protection (dads versus moms)
- Kentucky Constitution protects privacy to greater extent than the Federal
- Kentucky Constitution prohibits using Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” - violates religious freedom of citizens

Turns out I knew the AG, one lawyer for the AG, one lawyer for the plaintiffs and one judge.

My guess is the notice of appeal has already been filed (or will be e-filed by midnight)

read if you wanna - https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11ed-b633-9f6ed579816e/62dacdc2baaf9.pdf.pdf
Click to expand...
Thanks for the update
 
MyTeamIsOnTheFloor said:
The trial court judge issued a temporary injunction at 10 am today.

- trigger laws are an unconstitutional delegation of authority and vague about when and who enforces
- equal protection (dads versus moms)
- Kentucky Constitution protects privacy to greater extent than the Federal
- Kentucky Constitution prohibits using Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” - violates religious freedom of citizens

Turns out I knew the AG, one lawyer for the AG, one lawyer for the plaintiffs and one judge.

My guess is the notice of appeal has already been filed (or will be e-filed by midnight)

read if you wanna - https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11ed-b633-9f6ed579816e/62dacdc2baaf9.pdf.pdf
Click to expand...
Y'all are going to amend the Constitution this November to remove that little barrier, anyway, right?
 
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The Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” is a strong argument, as my Jewish friends have noted. Though I'm not sure why it holds more impact at the state level than it does for a country that is duty-bound to not do anything to aid in establishing a dominant religion.
 
outside shooter said:
The Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” is a strong argument, as my Jewish friends have noted. Though I'm not sure why it holds more impact at the state level than it does for a country that is duty-bound to not do anything to aid in establishing a dominant religion.
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Fetal personhood is science. Had nothing to do with religion. Look at a 3D U/S and tell me that’s not a person
 
outside shooter said:
The Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” is a strong argument, as my Jewish friends have noted. Though I'm not sure why it holds more impact at the state level than it does for a country that is duty-bound to not do anything to aid in establishing a dominant religion.
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You should have read my post about the Kentucky Constitution and its protections regarding religion. There were even stronger arguments that either the parties didn't argue, or the court overlooked.

In short, you cannot diminish the rights of a Kentucky citizen for not accepting the religious precepts of others. Since the Legislature openly used religion as a basis for the Kentucky Trigger Law, they arguably reduced the rights of Kentucky citizens for religious reasons, diminishing their rights for disagreeing about religious precepts, including when life begins.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Uh, no. Whether or not someone is a legal person is a moral determination, not scientific. Science simply can't answer that question.
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Take opinion out of the equation. Though not viable outside the womb, common sense says it’s a person. I have very mixed feelings about abortion from religious, scientific, moral, societal angles…. So I’m not just saying “Abortion bad”. But that fetus is a person
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Originally, I typed "moral and legal decision," but this is one case where I think the legal determination is clearly one of morality.
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You can make moral, legal, and scientific arguments for what constitutes personhood. All they have to do to make the law legal (based only on this thread) is to remove the religious component and say "this is a person because we say so" and they are back in business.
 
IUCrazy2 said:
You can make moral, legal, and scientific arguments for what constitutes personhood. All they have to do to make the law legal (based only on this thread) is to remove the religious component and say "this is a person because we say so" and they are back in business.
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You really can't make scientific arguments about what constitutes personhood. I mean, you can try to use science to justify your moral or legal arguments, but you can't make a scientific argument, per se, because personhood is not a scientific concept.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
You really can't make scientific arguments about what constitutes personhood. I mean, you can try to use science to justify your moral or legal arguments, but you can't make a scientific argument, per se, because personhood is not a scientific concept.
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I can make the argument that scientifically a fetus contains everything needed to separate it from another human. To me that is arguably personhood.

Things like DNA tests are testable and repeatable. If I can scientifically prove it isn't say, an elephant, I can scientifically prove it is a human.
 
outside shooter said:
The Christian religion concept of “fetal personhood” is a strong argument, as my Jewish friends have noted. Though I'm not sure why it holds more impact at the state level than it does for a country that is duty-bound to not do anything to aid in establishing a dominant religion.
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The Catholic view of ensoulment (when the fetus has a soul) came at about 6 months back in the days when I was a practicing Catholic.

Given this and wanting politicians to give us their best quess on when a fetus gets the protection of being a person subject to the protections of the 14th Amendment, I go back to my early religious doctrine.

Personhood starts with ensoulment (24 weeks).
 
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IUCrazy2 said:
You can make moral, legal, and scientific arguments for what constitutes personhood. All they have to do to make the law legal (based only on this thread) is to remove the religious component and say "this is a person because we say so" and they are back in business.
Click to expand...
Is an egg or sperm half of a person?
 
IUCrazy2 said:
I can make the argument that scientifically a fetus contains everything needed to separate it from another human. To me that is arguably personhood.

Things like DNA tests are testable and repeatable. If I can scientifically prove it isn't say, an elephant, I can scientifically prove it is a human.
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Of course you can make that argument. But when you add "to me, that is arguably personhood," that's a moral argument, not a scientific one. Personhood simply isn't a scientific concept, and science can't prove it one way or the other.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Of course you can make that argument. But when you add "to me, that is arguably personhood," that's a moral argument, not a scientific one. Personhood simply isn't a scientific concept, and science can't prove it one way or the other.
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When is a human not a person?
 
HoosierJimbo89 said:
Is an egg or sperm half of a person?
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I’d say, “not on a bet”
Half a potential future person is incomplete, and not a person.
Half a (former) person is half a cadaver.

Frozen zygotes have been the subject of science fiction in the past.
The lawyers can go check state laws to opine if they may be considered heirs.
 
TomEric4756 said:
I’d say, “not on a bet”
Half a potential future person is incomplete, and not a person.
Half a (former) person is half a cadaver.

Frozen zygotes have been the subject of science fiction in the past.
The lawyers can go check state laws to opine if they may be considered heirs.
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Is a sack of flour a cake?
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
More relevant question: After you mix the ingredients and put it in a pan, but before you bake it...is it a cake?
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Heat is an ingredient that is missing in your process. No process produces the objective, until all parameters have been included.
I know this is not a yes or no answer, I honestly don't have that answer and am not taking a stand on it at all. I am learning from these discussions though.
And now want some freaking cake... arggh.
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
Is a sack of flour a cake?
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You’d have to start with a bag of self rising flour. Say,

BLUES-MEMORABILIA-KING-BISCUIT-FLOUR-SACK-Helena-Arkansas.jpg
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
Heat is an ingredient that is missing in your process. No process produces the objective, until all parameters have been included.
I know this is not a yes or no answer, I honestly don't have that answer and am not taking a stand on it at all. I am learning from these discussions though.
And now want some freaking cake... arggh.
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I don't expect an answer. These questions have multiple answers, and some or all of them may be right, depending on how you look at it. My only disagreement is with the people who think they have it all figured out.
 
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