I respect your decisions. Just as I respect those that chose not to get it. Which was much more difficult and courageous at the time.
RFK to HHS
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
- Start date
I am much more bothered by people who don't test yet come in to my workplace and claim they don't have covid. That's how I got it both times. Didn't matter if they had been vaccinated or not. It mattered that they had covid. The two I got it from knew they felt sick, yet came to work and stayed around people without even taking a free test the company had available. Assholes.
Many in my family, mostly sisters, get very upset and won't let anyone who is unvaccinated into their houses. But I let my cousins (who don't vax for religious reasons) into my house. Why would it matter to me if they were vaccinated or not? What matters is IF THEY HAVE COVID.
Many in my family, mostly sisters, get very upset and won't let anyone who is unvaccinated into their houses. But I let my cousins (who don't vax for religious reasons) into my house. Why would it matter to me if they were vaccinated or not? What matters is IF THEY HAVE COVID.
I can’t imagine many test anymore. I think they just say they’re sick. If super sick stay home. If sort of sick out in the world. Like always
Here is a question, does big pharma make more money giving everyone one, or two, vaccines for a disease like polio or would they make more by treating millions that have the disease? There is a lot more money in treating conditions, a pill a day for the rest of your life sure beats one or two shots.
Great thing about Covid for them was they got to do both. Vax didn’t stop people from getting or spreading Covid. Win win
And measles, TB, polio, all the rest people now fear?
One of the reasons given we do not develop more antibiotics is that people take them for ten days and are done. There is far more money in managing conditions, such as ED meds. So why would pharma not want everyone to get polio, or TB. There is a logical inconstancy here. If money were the motivator, pharma would be anti vaccine and pushing treatments to make it slightly less burdensome.
The leap that the far right took from the Covid vaccine to all vaccines are bad is wild. Look, you don’t want to get the Covid vaccine or flu shot, fine. But adults not immunizing their children from polio, measles, etc. is neglect at best.
And? RFKjr isn’t anti vax. I’m not anti pharma. The covid vax was experimental. We won’t know all the bad that could come/will from those shots for years. But a day of reckoning is likely coming.
Are you suggesting $ isn’t a motivator?
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The right didn’t take the leap you’ve suggested. Maybe fringe far right, but not the masses. And RFKjr doesn’t represent that. You guys are full of shit.
It’s far right, but it’s more than fringe. Indiana’s Lt Governor elect posted about it on Twitter recently. It’s lunacy.
Sorry. You’re just wrong. But keep slurping up that legacy media bs. It’ll take you a long way.
You’re a real one trick pony. By the way, when a person posts something on their twitter account, it’s not “legacy media”.
One person stating something doesn’t make it more than fringe. Please post the exact quote. I don’t know what was said.
You do understand most vaccine hesitancy today was caused by the Covid mess.
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I’m not playing a game of gotcha with you. Do your own research. I get wanting to believe the legacy media from the left. People like echo chambers and that’s exactly what it is for you people. But the truth is, they are nothing more than an arm of the Democratic party. And they are going extinct because of it.
Fox sucks also.
At best, RFKjr is a "vaccine skeptic," and he's a conspiracy theorist. It floors me that MAGA Republicans ignore and forgive his claims that GWB won the 2004 election due to voter fraud in Ohio. Why do you think MAGA Republicans love RFKjr so much?
A COVID vaccine was urgently needed and originally authorized under the "emergency use authorization." It was in the experimental stage at the time, but did have clinical trials, despite misinformation at the time saying it didn't. It is no longer experimental by definition after additional sufficiently long clinical trials and isn't any more experimental than the annual flu vaccine.
History of COVID-19: Outbreaks and Vaccine Timeline
Learn about the COVID-19 pandemic and learn about COVID-19 tests, treatments, mRNA research, and COVID-19 vaccine development and approval.
www.mayoclinic.org
COVID-19 mRNA vaccines were tested in clinical trials, aren’t experimental - Science Feedback
Clinical trials and ongoing vaccine monitoring efforts show that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at reducing a person’s risk of severe disease and death. Like any medical intervention, vaccines also come with risks. While COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are linked to a slight increase in the risk of...
science.feedback.org
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Why haven't you linked the sources that give you the "real" news and information?
I don’t know how that’s possible. My kids can’t go to school without updated vax records
It's clearly caused by misinformation about the COVID situation spread by easily duped people. There were millions of shares on social media of totally made-up nonsense information which was "slurped up" by duped people that spread it as well.
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The bolded is a common phrase on social media made by people that don't have a clue what "research" is or how to do it. Generally, it means they go to dubious non-expert sites that tell them exactly what they're predisposed to believe and want to believe. Then it's "Hallelujah! I've done my research, and it supports my position!"
Regarding checking the fact checkers, the scientific method does that. If you fake a scientific study, others will analyze it, repeat it, get different results, and refute your alleged "facts". Every time.
It's a mindset that is perpetually self-correcting.
Vaccine "skeptic" is a stupid phrase. A skeptic is a person who requires valid evidence to reach a conclusion regarding a hypothesis. I am a skeptic. Any scientist is. Any good detective, policeman, judge, or lawyer is.
Denying the legitimacy of valid evidence is not skepticism, it is denialism.
It's a mindset that is perpetually self-correcting.
Vaccine "skeptic" is a stupid phrase. A skeptic is a person who requires valid evidence to reach a conclusion regarding a hypothesis. I am a skeptic. Any scientist is. Any good detective, policeman, judge, or lawyer is.
Denying the legitimacy of valid evidence is not skepticism, it is denialism.
I get it.
You don't want to list your trusted media sources. I guess you have your reasons.
I am not convinced all the scientists in the world are in some grand conspiracy to hide risks. Think of it this way, Merck and Lilly compete, don't their scientists have an incentive to rat out the other side? That doesn't include the data analysts who work for the various governments checking results. Nor university researchers not employed by pharma.
I took a drug that never should have made it to market, Vioxx for arthritis in my knees. I know things can and do happen. Merck covered up the data in the initial approval. But independent investigators did research and found problems, but for reasons unknown the FDA did not act. You can read about it at https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp048286.
Over the course of the five-and-a-half-year saga, many epidemiologic studies confirmed and amplified the concern about the risk of myocardial infarction and serious cardiovascular events associated with rofecoxib.3 These studies considered large populations, up to 1.4 million patients, tracking the use of various nonsteroidal antiinflammatory medications or coxibs to determine the risk of adverse events.
I just reject a massive conspiracy to hide flaws, and there are independent agents checking. Mistakes do happen, they happen in everything. But if $ is the primary motivator why would pharma want to cure conditions, it is pretty obvious treating them is far more profitable. That's my point, if making money is the only goal, why don't we have drugs to help people with polio instead of a vaccine to prevent it. 3-$80 vaccinations aren't nearly as profitable as $80 a month for life.
As to COVID vaccine, funny thing is that was developed by Trump. He heavily touted his work in pushing aside regulations.
I'm not saying COVID is foolproof, but the science seems good. They inject mRNA to produce a little bit of a spike protein. The body's immune system finds that and catalogs it as a threat. Right off-hand, I don't see disaster. mRNA is already in our bodies. Many viruses we encounter already have spike proteins. It isn't like we are injecting something that has never been in our body to replicate something else that has never been in our body.
Maybe there is something our best minds never thought of. It does happen. Even knowing some of his team could not completely rule out the bomb would ignite the atmosphere, Oppenheimer had the bomb detonated. We build nuclear power plants (and should build more) even though we don't know everything that can go wrong.
I recall anti-seatbelt people saying, "If you are heading off a cliff, a seatbelt will keep you from leaping out and thus kill you." True, but the risk of that is so minuscule compared to dying in a normal collision that it is easily worth the risk.
Kennedy is akin to the anti-nuclear movement, pointing out risks that are exceedingly small knowing people do not judge risks well. If there are concerns the watchdogs aren't watching, is relaxing government oversight the answer? I've said before, I have no problems telling employees in the FDA they cannot work for pharma for 5 years AFTER leaving the FDA or they pay a $5 million penalty. If we are concerned they are siding with pharma to get a future job, why not do something like that?
Yes. As I’ve stated numerous times, I’m not anti vax. Anything else?
An estimated 14,400,000 more deaths from COVID would have occurred in the absence of COVID vaccines. It seems like 14.4M people avoided their day of reckoning.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I know, I know, they are "all dying or heart attacks"
Wait, the lifetime incidence of heart disease in men is 1 in 2, and 1 in 3 in women. 40% overall.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Yes, 40%. So about 5,600,000 of the 14,400,000 will eventually have a heart disease.
Having COVID definitely RAISES the incidence. Does the vaccine also raise it? Unclear, but if it has an impact, it is small. let's say 40% becomes 40.5% (a pure hypothetical). So... about 5,670,000 of the 14,400,000 will eventually have a heart attack. 70,000 extra heart attacks seems huge, but they all would have been dead long before from CoVID and in the risk-benefit equation, in the long term, 14,330,000 lives would have been saved, assuming all heart disease is fatal (and it isn't).
I know, you were told there would be no math. It's easy math, though, unless you are a math skeptic.
Lives saved by COVID‐19 vaccines - PMC
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I know, I know, they are "all dying or heart attacks"
Wait, the lifetime incidence of heart disease in men is 1 in 2, and 1 in 3 in women. 40% overall.
Lifetime risk of developing coronary heart disease - PubMed
Lifetime risk at age 40 years is one in two for men and one in three for women. Even at age 70 years it is one in three for men and one in four for women. This knowledge may promote efforts in education, screening, and treatment for prevention of coronary heart disease in younger and older patients.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Yes, 40%. So about 5,600,000 of the 14,400,000 will eventually have a heart disease.
Having COVID definitely RAISES the incidence. Does the vaccine also raise it? Unclear, but if it has an impact, it is small. let's say 40% becomes 40.5% (a pure hypothetical). So... about 5,670,000 of the 14,400,000 will eventually have a heart attack. 70,000 extra heart attacks seems huge, but they all would have been dead long before from CoVID and in the risk-benefit equation, in the long term, 14,330,000 lives would have been saved, assuming all heart disease is fatal (and it isn't).
I know, you were told there would be no math. It's easy math, though, unless you are a math skeptic.
I would have no problem taking Vioxx as needed. My kid takes celecoxib for fever and pain since he has allergies to Ibuprofen and acetaminophen (yeah it sucks).
The initial covid vaccine saved lives…anyone arguing otherwise is wrong. But there have been adverse reactions…anyone arguing otherwise is wrong.
Right now…we have a timing issue with regards to covid. It is already here before the new vaccine form is available.
Severe COVID infection and risks of heart attack and stroke:
“We found a long-term cardiovascular health risk associated with COVID, especially among people with more severe COVID-19 cases that required hospitalization,” said lead study author James Hilser, M.P.H., Ph.D.-candidate at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine in Los Angeles. “This increased risk of heart attack and stroke continued three years after COVID-19 infection. Remarkably, in some cases, the increased risk was almost as high as having a known cardiovascular risk factor such as Type 2 diabetes or peripheral artery disease.”
Researchers reviewed health and genetic data in the UK Biobank for more than 10,000 adults, including approximately 8,000 who had tested positive for the COVID-19 virus from February 1 to December 31, 2020 and about 2,000 who tested positive for the virus in a hospital setting in 2020. A group of more than 200,000 adults who had no history of COVID-19 infection during the same time frame in the UK Biobank were also reviewed for comparison. None of the participants were vaccinated at the time of infection because COVID-19 vaccines were not yet available in 2020.
The analysis found:
During the nearly 3-year follow-up period, the risk of heart attack, stroke and death was more than two times higher among adults who had COVID-19, and nearly four times greater among adults hospitalized with COVID-19, compared with the group with no history of COVID-19 infection.
newsroom.heart.org
COVID-19 infection is bad for cardiovascular health. 2-4x higher incidence.
What about vaccinated people? The trope we hear every day it seems is some young athlete dying and the fact skeptics say "must have gotten the jab!"
So far, evidence says that's a load of crap.
"Electronic health record data from 40 U.S. health care systems during January 2021–January 2022, showed that the risk for cardiac complications was significantly higher after COVID-19 infection than after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination among persons aged ≥5 years (8). Data from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics show a background mortality rate from diseases of the heart among Oregonians aged 15–34 years of 2.9 and 4.1 deaths per 100,000, during 2019 and 2021, respectively. Although the rate was higher during the pandemic year of 2021, myocarditis remained an infrequent cause of death among persons in this age group.†† Detection of a small difference in mortality rate from myocarditis would require a larger sample size.
In this study of 1,292 deaths among Oregon residents aged 16–30 years during June 2021–December 2022, none could definitively be attributed to cardiac causes within 100 days of receipt of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine dose; one male died from undetermined causes 45 days after receipt of a COVID-19 vaccine. During May 1, 2021–December 31, 2022, a total of 979,289 doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered to Oregonians aged 16–30 years (unpublished data, ALERT IIS, 2024.)
During the same period, COVID-19 was cited as the cause of death for 30 Oregon residents in this age group. Among these 30 decedents, ALERT IIS had records for 22 (73%), only three of whom had received any COVID-19 vaccination. Studies have shown significant reductions in COVID-19–related mortality among vaccinated persons; during the first 2 years of COVID-19 vaccine availability in the United States, vaccination prevented an estimated 18.5 million hospitalizations and 3.2 million deaths (9)."
www.cdc.gov
“We found a long-term cardiovascular health risk associated with COVID, especially among people with more severe COVID-19 cases that required hospitalization,” said lead study author James Hilser, M.P.H., Ph.D.-candidate at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine in Los Angeles. “This increased risk of heart attack and stroke continued three years after COVID-19 infection. Remarkably, in some cases, the increased risk was almost as high as having a known cardiovascular risk factor such as Type 2 diabetes or peripheral artery disease.”
Researchers reviewed health and genetic data in the UK Biobank for more than 10,000 adults, including approximately 8,000 who had tested positive for the COVID-19 virus from February 1 to December 31, 2020 and about 2,000 who tested positive for the virus in a hospital setting in 2020. A group of more than 200,000 adults who had no history of COVID-19 infection during the same time frame in the UK Biobank were also reviewed for comparison. None of the participants were vaccinated at the time of infection because COVID-19 vaccines were not yet available in 2020.
The analysis found:
During the nearly 3-year follow-up period, the risk of heart attack, stroke and death was more than two times higher among adults who had COVID-19, and nearly four times greater among adults hospitalized with COVID-19, compared with the group with no history of COVID-19 infection.
COVID-19 infection appeared to increase risk of heart attack & stroke up to 3 years later
Research Highlights: An analysis of UK Biobank health data that included adults who had mild to severe COVID-19 before vaccines were available found an increased risk of heart attack, stroke and death among those adults during the nearly three-year...
COVID-19 infection is bad for cardiovascular health. 2-4x higher incidence.
What about vaccinated people? The trope we hear every day it seems is some young athlete dying and the fact skeptics say "must have gotten the jab!"
So far, evidence says that's a load of crap.
"Electronic health record data from 40 U.S. health care systems during January 2021–January 2022, showed that the risk for cardiac complications was significantly higher after COVID-19 infection than after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination among persons aged ≥5 years (8). Data from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics show a background mortality rate from diseases of the heart among Oregonians aged 15–34 years of 2.9 and 4.1 deaths per 100,000, during 2019 and 2021, respectively. Although the rate was higher during the pandemic year of 2021, myocarditis remained an infrequent cause of death among persons in this age group.†† Detection of a small difference in mortality rate from myocarditis would require a larger sample size.
In this study of 1,292 deaths among Oregon residents aged 16–30 years during June 2021–December 2022, none could definitively be attributed to cardiac causes within 100 days of receipt of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine dose; one male died from undetermined causes 45 days after receipt of a COVID-19 vaccine. During May 1, 2021–December 31, 2022, a total of 979,289 doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered to Oregonians aged 16–30 years (unpublished data, ALERT IIS, 2024.)
During the same period, COVID-19 was cited as the cause of death for 30 Oregon residents in this age group. Among these 30 decedents, ALERT IIS had records for 22 (73%), only three of whom had received any COVID-19 vaccination. Studies have shown significant reductions in COVID-19–related mortality among vaccinated persons; during the first 2 years of COVID-19 vaccine availability in the United States, vaccination prevented an estimated 18.5 million hospitalizations and 3.2 million deaths (9)."
Assessment of Risk for Sudden Cardiac Death Among...
This report describes a review of Oregon death certificate data to assess whether young people in Oregon might be dying after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.
www.cdc.gov
Schools are local. What I think is funny after I posted the overwhelming discussion went to covid bullshit. The real problem is incompetent parents., religious objections and conspiracy beliefs.
I think your COVID answer is correct. Any drug has risks, aspirin has risks. If one is fully healthy, the vaccine doesn't make sense. But taking any medicine when one is fully healthy is a risk. mRNA was new, I get people being concerned. I don't get, "everyone at pharma, everyone at FDA, 90% of independent researchers, are covering up."
Vioxx had pretty significant risks. I was very active in 2000, my doctor was already wanting knee replacement at 40. Can't do that and be active (basketball and running) so I worked hard to avoid it. Vioxx made me feel funny so I quit it after just a couple of weeks. But the myocardial events were statistically significant. I can put up with a lot of pain to avoid a heart attack. And Aleve did OK.
I also have a daughter allergic to ibuprofen. Whenever we took her to appointments, other doctors were always questioning, "it's really rare to be allergic to that". Well, really rare isn't never.
