Parallels between Ancient Rome and Western Powers?

[The Original Happy Goat]

It seems people have identified a lot of reasons besides birth rates for Rome's population collapse. As for the comparison, I see two issues. 1) Rome was/is a city, not a country.

2) Rome had a birth rate issue and failed. We have a birthrate issue; therefore, we will fail. It’s flawed logic.

What's the obvious one that we missed?

Your #1 was closest to what I was thinking, which was simply that trying to compare a sedentary culture in a modern nation state to an ancient culture in the time long before major migrations ended is just ridiculous. But even deeper, the idea that those migrations were somehow responsible for the fall of Rome...I mean, the barbarians saved Rome. They gave us the Holy Roman Empire. France, Spain, England. It's tempting for classicists to look back and imagine the best of the West copied Athens and Rome and preserved some ancient genius, but they didn't. The West was founded by the barbarians.

 

[BradStevens]

Your #1 was closest to what I was thinking, which was simply that trying to compare a sedentary culture in a modern nation state to an ancient culture in the time long before major migrations ended is just ridiculous. But even deeper, the idea that those migrations were somehow responsible for the fall of Rome...I mean, the barbarians saved Rome. They gave us the Holy Roman Empire. France, Spain, England. It's tempting for classicists to look back and imagine the best of the West copied Athens and Rome and preserved some ancient genius, but they didn't. The West was founded by the barbarians.

You don't consider Roman and Greek culture, writing, law, etc. part of the Western tradition?

 

[DANC]

Well, yeah, but the empire had moved the capital and all that admin function to Constantinople and then in 476 Rome was sacked by the Germanic tribes. So of course their population fell in those 200 years.

Did you read the article?

That was the reply I got when I said Rome had been sacked too many times and people left for their own safety.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

You don't consider Roman and Greek culture, writing, law, etc. part of the Western tradition?

Of course it's part of it.

 

[NPT]

Rome promoted the GAY life style. That was their downfall.

 

[BradStevens]

Of course it's part of it.

Christianity is also a huge factor preceding the “barbarians.” (Bigot!)

I just think it’s a stretch to say the francs et al founded the West. They certainly had a huge part to play and one that is under appreciated. But I’d say the founding (to the extent that word makes sense here—it was clearly more a development over time) can be pushed back at least to the Greeks v. Persians.

VDH has a great book on this that delved into various historical battles between East and West to highlight their differences and how those led to different cultures. Can’t recall the title. Also, as mentioned before, RIH has a good series on the rise of the Franks that supports your take here.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

Christianity is also a huge factor preceding the “barbarians.” (Bigot!)

I just think it’s a stretch to say the francs et al founded the West. They certainly had a huge part to play and one that is under appreciated. But I’d say the founding (to the extent that word makes sense here—it was clearly more a development over time) can be pushed back at least to the Greeks v. Persians.

VDH has a great book on this that delved into various historical battles between East and West to highlight their differences and how those led to different cultures. Can’t recall the title. Also, as mentioned before, RIH has a good series on the rise of the Franks that supports your take here.

I may have been countering an exaggeration with an overreaction, it's true. Nevertheless, no matter how much ancient culture was preserved as a basis for western society, it was largely the barbarians doing the actual preservation. In Western Europe, the Latins pretty much gave way to successive waves of Goths and Germans, and even in the East, where Greek culture was more resilient, Slavs and Norse became critical supports for propping up the empire.