Oakland

[crazed_hoosier2]

While Oakland is indeed a dump - I think greed is the likely culprit here. Fisher wanted a new stadium and found a whore of a city that would pay him.

Well...yeah. I probably would've done the same thing in his situation.

I wouldn't necessarily call that greedy, though. There's a key difference between (unhealthy) greed and (healthy) self-interest. And it's this: how does the guy on the other side of the table come out?

Of course, that's a gross simplification. Everything entails risk. Just because somebody makes a bad business deal doesn't necessarily mean they got hosed by whoever they made it with. In other words, Las Vegas isn't guaranteed that forking over their taxpayers' money to woo an MLB team will return more than it cost. But greed, to me, is when you knowingly and willingly screw somebody else over for your own gain....either with or without their consent.

These sports teams are still, at the end of the day, businesses.

 

[BradStevens]

I'd like to see more cities own the teams ala the Packers. Sell shares to the public and have a management team. I'm no longer a baseball fan, but I used to follow the Reds. I always thought they should have gone that route. The Cubs and the Bears also. There was a time 40-50 years ago when it could have worked more broadly. Perhaps not now, given the present selling prices.

I’ve long been a proponent of this. The GM should be an elected position. Imagine the turnout every four years!

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well...yeah. I probably would've done the same thing in his situation.

I wouldn't necessarily call that greedy, though. There's a key difference between (unhealthy) greed and (healthy) self-interest. And it's this: how does the guy on the other side of the table come out?

Of course, that's a gross simplification. Everything entails risk. Just because somebody makes a bad business deal doesn't necessarily mean they got hosed by whoever they made it with. In other words, Las Vegas isn't guaranteed that forking over their taxpayers' money to woo an MLB team will return more than it cost. But greed, to me, is when you knowingly and willingly screw somebody else over for your own gain....either with or without their consent.

These sports teams are still, at the end of the day, businesses.

Long ago I looked at the research. Public subsidies in big cities really wasn’t a boon to the community. They’d just spend those dollars at the zoo or dinner or the movies. But for smaller markets it had ancillary benefits: attracting biz etc. elevated the city’s perception

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I'd like to see more cities own the teams ala the Packers. Sell shares to the public and have a management team. I'm no longer a baseball fan, but I used to follow the Reds. I always thought they should have gone that route. The Cubs and the Bears also. There was a time 40-50 years ago when it could have worked more broadly. Perhaps not now, given the present selling prices.

Technically, the Packers are a publicly-held nonprofit entity. It's not owned by the municipality. There really aren't a whole lot of benefits to owning the shares, though. It's not like traditional equity. I love NFL football -- but I'd never buy shares in something like that.

 

[secondasky]

The Philadelphia A's moved to Kansas City then moved to Oakland years ago. Now Vegas. It was inevitable, Ever been to Oakland ? I think they like roller derby there. Vegas is a unique city with much to offer and the team will thrive there.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Long ago I looked at the research. Public subsidies in big cities really wasn’t a boon to the community. They’d just spend those dollars at the zoo or dinner or the movies. But for smaller markets it had ancillary benefits: attracting biz etc. elevated the city’s perception

And yet the competition for these franchises remains fierce enough that they keep getting all kinds of subsidies thrown their way.

FTR, I don't like the practice one bit -- but it has nothing to do with the owners being rich or the businesses being sports teams. I just oppose subsidies generally. I think most people disagree with these in the abstract....but they continue happening because cities like their major league sports. There's no shortage of cultural value in them, if not economic value.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

So? It’s called competition. Oakland is not a player, their choice.

View embedded media

But it's not fair competition, because the # of teams is not set by the market. The NFL has too much market power. The "barriers to entry" are too high. How about some anti-trust action here?

 

[mushroomgod_1]

And yet the competition for these franchises remains fierce enough that they keep getting all kinds of subsidies thrown their way.

FTR, I don't like the practice one bit -- but it has nothing to do with the owners being rich or the businesses being sports teams. I just oppose subsidies generally. I think most people disagree with these in the abstract....but they continue happening because cities like their major league sports. There's no shortage of cultural value in them, if not economic value.

Double the # of teams, or here comes an anti-trust action. Break up Google while you're at it.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

But it's not fair competition, because the # of teams is not set by the market. The NFL has too much market power. The "barriers to entry" are too high. How about some anti-trust action here?

Messing with the NFL strikes me as something that would be politically perilous for a politician to do.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

But it's not fair competition, because the # of teams is not set by the market. The NFL has too much market power. The "barriers to entry" are too high. How about some anti-trust action here?

NFL is a franchise operation. Not a public utility. I’m not a fan of its structure, but I don’t want government fixing anything.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

NFL is a franchise operation. Not a public utility. I’m not a fan of its structure, but I don’t want government fixing anything.

But they do have an anti-trust exemption. So, it would be possible for Congress to suspend that exemption or otherwise put conditions on it.

But I'd say there's almost no chance that this happens. The NFL would stir up their fans and people would be out with pitchforks.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Long ago I looked at the research. Public subsidies in big cities really wasn’t a boon to the community. They’d just spend those dollars at the zoo or dinner or the movies. But for smaller markets it had ancillary benefits: attracting biz etc. elevated the city’s perception

Often the subsidies aren’t all what they seem. They are a way to issue tax free lower interest bonds to build the facilities. When interest rates were high, that was a big deal. In Colorado the “subsidies” are voter approved taxes. The money wouldn’t be there without the sport. No money from the general fund.

 

[mrhighlife]

John Fisher, owner of the A's, is a piece of trash. The worst owner I'm all of professional sports. He still hasn't submitted any plans to the city of Las Vegas. Vegas doesn't even know if its actually going to happen. I wouldn't be shocked if MLB steps in a forces him to sell. He should. He destroyed a once proud franchise.

 

[hoosboot]

While Oakland is indeed a dump - I think greed is the likely culprit here. Fisher wanted a new stadium and found a whore of a city that would pay him.

The saga in Oakland seems like a no good guys kind of situation.

Fisher wanted someone else to pay for a new stadium for him but then also wanted some of the goodies that go with owning it. He also offered to build his own, but apparently wanted land and $500 million in financing guarantees to do it.

Oakland was pretty intractable in its approach to getting the team to stay, refusing to budge on a lot of other priorities.

That said, Oakland has a population of around 400,000, the whole county is just somewhere north of 2,000,000 and the metro area (which includes San Francisco and it's Giants and Niners) is short of 5,000,000. As a comparison, Philadelphia and it's only game in town is north of 6,000,000 residents. Some cities just don't need sports franchises and certainly some metro areas don't need two of the same sport.

 

[hoosboot]

John Fisher, owner of the A's, is a piece of trash. The worst owner I'm all of professional sports. He still hasn't submitted any plans to the city of Las Vegas. Vegas doesn't even know if its actually going to happen. I wouldn't be shocked if MLB steps in a forces him to sell. He should. He destroyed a once proud franchise.

Lots of things can be true at once. Fisher definitely seems like a douche, but the metro area probably can't support 2 baseball franchises, 2 football franchises, and a basketball franchise (well, it obviously can't since it no longer has that.)

 

[hookyIU1990]

Often the subsidies aren’t all what they seem. They are a way to issue tax free lower interest bonds to build the facilities. When interest rates were high, that was a big deal. In Colorado the “subsidies” are voter approved taxes. The money wouldn’t be there without the sport. No money from the general fund.

We're still paying for the Hoosier Dome, which was demolished 16 years ago. They just bumped up the tax and spread it out to counties that shared a border with Indianapolis/Marion County to pay for the new one. Meanwhile, Jim Irsay is sending all the stuff he's spent millions acquiring out on tour.

The Jim Irsay Collection

The Jim Irsay Collection features museum-quality artifacts and rare memorabilia from American history, rock 'n roll, and pop culture.

www.jimirsaycollection.com

 

[mrhighlife]

John Fisher, owner of the A's, is a piece of trash. The worst owner I'm all of professional sports. He still hasn't submitted any plans to the city of Las Vegas. Vegas doesn't even know if its actually going to happen. I wouldn't be shocked if MLB steps in a forces him to sell. He should. He destroyed a once proud franchise.

The largest contract in A's history was to Eric Chavez in 2004. Fisher bought the team in 2005 and never signed anyone. He had no intentions of ever keeping the team in Oakland. He is a real life version of the owner in Major League.

 

[mrhighlife]

Lots of things can be true at once. Fisher definitely seems like a douche, but the metro area probably can't support 2 baseball franchises, 2 football franchises, and a basketball franchise (well, it obviously can't since it no longer has that.)

Oakland doesn't get a pass. They were arrogant and tried to call Fishers bluff. But they absolutely came to the table when they realized he wasn't bluffing. Only to find out he no intentions of ever staying.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

So? It’s called competition. Oakland is not a player, their choice.

View embedded media

GTFOH. Rich asshole owners trying to hold arbitrage over a city is scumbag behavior. **** that guy. Your take is nonsense when it comes to sports. I hope he fails miserably.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

Opening day last season, they only opened a few concession stands in the place and still ran out of hot dogs. It was like something out of Major League when Rachel Phelps wanted to lower attendance so she could move the team to Miami.

And that has nothing to do with the city and everything to do with P&L.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

Well...yeah. I probably would've done the same thing in his situation.

I wouldn't necessarily call that greedy, though. There's a key difference between (unhealthy) greed and (healthy) self-interest. And it's this: how does the guy on the other side of the table come out?

Of course, that's a gross simplification. Everything entails risk. Just because somebody makes a bad business deal doesn't necessarily mean they got hosed by whoever they made it with. In other words, Las Vegas isn't guaranteed that forking over their taxpayers' money to woo an MLB team will return more than it cost. But greed, to me, is when you knowingly and willingly screw somebody else over for your own gain....either with or without their consent.

These sports teams are still, at the end of the day, businesses.

Most of them are only viable businesses because they basically belong to a Union (a league) that uses progressive taxing on the high spending ball clubs to keep the poor teams afloat. That’s not business - that’s communism.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

The saga in Oakland seems like a no good guys kind of situation.

Fisher wanted someone else to pay for a new stadium for him but then also wanted some of the goodies that go with owning it. He also offered to build his own, but apparently wanted land and $500 million in financing guarantees to do it.

Oakland was pretty intractable in its approach to getting the team to stay, refusing to budge on a lot of other priorities.

That said, Oakland has a population of around 400,000, the whole county is just somewhere north of 2,000,000 and the metro area (which includes San Francisco and it's Giants and Niners) is short of 5,000,000. As a comparison, Philadelphia and it's only game in town is north of 6,000,000 residents. Some cities just don't need sports franchises and certainly some metro areas don't need two of the same sport.

I don’t disagree but as recently as the 90s they had no problem filling seats. Once Moneyball stopped giving them an advantage (because other teams did it too), they became an Operations based organization that just feeds the ownership cash.

Nobody goes to White Sox games anymore because they stink. But they’ll be back once they’re good. Same would happen in Oakland.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Only to find out he no intentions of ever staying.

I don’t know anything about the guy, other than his parents founded The Gap. I haven’t heard many good things about him, so I’ll defer to this impression of him.

That said, if I owned a major league sports franchise in Oakland, I almost certainly wouldn’t want to keep it there either. It’s become a hellhole.

Apparently the majority owner of the Warriors said he’d buy the A’s in order to keep it there. Or at least it’s been talked about. In that case, it might present an opportunity for him to turn a pretty big profit on it…and make it somebody else’s problem.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

GTFOH. Rich asshole owners trying to hold arbitrage over a city is scumbag behavior. **** that guy. Your take is nonsense when it comes to sports. I hope he fails miserably.

In most cases, they’re not merely trying to do this. They’re succeeding at it.

I get that it’s distasteful. But people put a huge premium on their local sports teams. That gives owners a great deal of leverage…whatever anybody thinks about it.

And the world runs on leverage.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

GTFOH. Rich asshole owners trying to hold arbitrage over a city is scumbag behavior. **** that guy. Your take is nonsense when it comes to sports. I hope he fails miserably.

Rich asshole has nothing to do with anything. The Oakland coliseum is a crap hole. So is Oakland. What would you have him do. Invest in a new stadium . . . in Oakland?

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

Rich asshole has nothing to do with anything. The Oakland coliseum is a crap hole. So is Oakland. What would you have him do. Invest in a new stadium . . . in Oakland?

You are not romantic about baseball.

 

[mrhighlife]

I don’t know anything about the guy, other than his parents founded The Gap. I haven’t heard many good things about him, so I’ll defer to this impression of him.

That said, if I owned a major league sports franchise in Oakland, I almost certainly wouldn’t want to keep it there either. It’s become a hellhole.

Apparently the majority owner of the Warriors said he’d buy the A’s in order to keep it there. Or at least it’s been talked about. In that case, it might present an opportunity for him to turn a pretty big profit on it…and make it somebody else’s problem.

I get wanting to get out of Oakland but he didn't need to tank the franchise in the process.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You are not romantic about baseball.

Oakland coliseum is not exactly a romantic venue and Oakland is not a romantic city.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I get wanting to get out of Oakland but he didn't need to tank the franchise in the process.

STFU. You are talking to a white Sox fan here.

 

[ulrey]

A’s last day. Hell of a thing to lose both football and baseball in a city. Kick in the nuts

My favorite player growing up..

 

[stollcpa]

Hopefully the people of Oakland can turn the energy of the disappointment and anger of this into positive change that will address the underlying reason their teams left.

But I’m not holding my breath.

Nothing will change. Democrats ya know.

 

[mcmurtry66]

My favorite player growing up..

one of my too. eckersely. don't forget the home run goons. 4 world series.

 

[BradStevens]

I don’t disagree but as recently as the 90s they had no problem filling seats. Once Moneyball stopped giving them an advantage (because other teams did it too), they became an Operations based organization that just feeds the ownership cash.

Nobody goes to White Sox games anymore because they stink. But they’ll be back once they’re good. Same would happen in Oakland.

Not too many go when the Sox are good. It's a garbage franchise and should be disbanded.

 

[mrhighlife]

STFU. You are talking to a white Sox fan here.

Reinsdorf is very close to the worst owner in sports. Another one that should be forced to sell. He used to give a shit for that he has a slight edge over Fisher.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Reinsdorf is very close to the worst owner in sports. Another one that should be forced to sell. He used to give a shit for that he has a slight edge over Fisher.

He was okay back on the day.

 

[mrhighlife]

He was okay back on the day.

He does have a dynasty basketball team and a world series under his belt. Not a lot of owners can say that. But His downturn has been epically bad. His kid is driving the Bulls into the ground now.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

In most cases, they’re not merely trying to do this. They’re succeeding at it.

I get that it’s distasteful. But people put a huge premium on their local sports teams. That gives owners a great deal of leverage…whatever anybody thinks about it.

And the world runs on leverage.

Agreed and that’s again why I said it’s about greed. It’s not about Oakland.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Agreed and that’s again why I said it’s about greed. It’s not about Oakland.

Well, I wouldn’t call it greed. But it certainly is about what Fisher thinks is in his best interest.

 

[IUINSB]

He was okay back on the day.

Horseshit. I have despised that asshole since 1994.
If he had an ounce of integrity he would cut prices by 50% next year, parking, tickets and concession.

 

[DANC]

A’s last day. Hell of a thing to lose both football and baseball in a city. Kick in the nuts

I watched some A's games in the early 70s with Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, Blue Moon Odom, and other assorted character. Man, they were good and the stadium was state of the art for that time.

I even took the Bart from there (I think - I know I caught it somewhere in Oakland after it first opened).