ADVERTISEMENT

NCAA Rejects UNC Rule. Let the race to the bottom begin (continue?)

"[The] news release quoted the board chairman, University of Kentucky President Eli Capilouto, as saying: “Today’s action is appropriate because it places the onus on individual campuses to preserve academic integrity.”

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article233693507.html#storylink=cpy
This situation can be explained by analogy to the federal powers versus state powers. Here, the NCAA is the federal government and individual conferences and schools are the states.

The states by and large objected to ceding their academic powers to the federal government, the NCAA. Preserving academic policing status quo is what's going on here. Really, none of this is very surprising. That was the gist of the matter from day one.

Academic accreditations matter, not NCAA bylaws, in policing individual schools' institutional academic integrity, because that's what (most of) the schools (states) want.

As to the race to the bottom, we will just have to see how schools will handle themselves from now on. UNC said they have cut the sham.
 
  • Like
Reactions: moneyadvisor
I would like to see the Big 10 drop out of the big 10 ACC challenge. The ACC conference is a joke.
 
I would like to see the Big 10 drop out of the big 10 ACC challenge. The ACC conference is a joke.
Too many $$$$ would be lost to discontinue the series. The $$$$ set the agenda and the direction for the NCAA. I would love to see a new organization formed to replace the NCAA.

You know the NCAA is screwed up when a UK official is in a leadership position.
 
This situation can be explained by analogy to the federal powers versus state powers. Here, the NCAA is the federal government and individual conferences and schools are the states.

The states by and large objected to ceding their academic powers to the federal government, the NCAA. Preserving academic policing status quo is what's going on here. Really, none of this is very surprising. That was the gist of the matter from day one.

Academic accreditations matter, not NCAA bylaws, in policing individual schools' institutional academic integrity, because that's what (most of) the schools (states) want.

As to the race to the bottom, we will just have to see how schools will handle themselves from now on. UNC said they have cut the sham.

Ugh, I can't believe I'm getting drawn back in to this, and that folks are so thick-headed. Frankly, I don't think they are, I think they see and believe what they want, just as Roy Williams didn't know about these classes, while John Bunting and Butch Davis did... "awww shucks Roy, we believe you....NOT!"

I think a better analogy than your states vs federal rights, is the stock market. Some stocks are winners and some are losers and everything is fine as long as you or your advisors pick your own portfolio using legal methods. But, insider trading is illegal and should be. What UNC did is akin to insider trading. Athletic advisors and academics conspired to create sham courses and funneled players in to them solely to keep them eligible. It's not the content of courses that was wrong necessarily (they were), it's the willful and complicit efforts of academics and athletic advisors to create easy courses and funnel players to them to keep the eligible. And it's wrong on it's face. It's like the Supreme Court justice who said I know obscenity when I see it. This was wrong on it's face, period.
 
Last edited:
Ugh, I can't believe I'm getting drawn back in to this, and that folks are so thick-headed. Frankly, I don't think they are, I think they see and believe what they want, just as Roy Williams didn't know about these classes, while John Bunting and Butch Davis did... "awww shucks Roy, we believe you....NOT!"

I think a better analogy than your states vs federal rights, is the stock market. Some stocks are winners and some are losers and everything is fine as long as you or your advisors pick your own portfolio using legal methods. But, insider trading is illegal and should be. What UNC did is akin to insider trading. Athletic advisors and academics conspired to create sham courses and funneled players in to them solely to keep them eligible. It's not the content of courses that was wrong necessarily (they were), it's the willful and complicit efforts of academics and athletic advisors to create easy courses and funnel players to them to keep the eligible. And it's wrong on it's face. It's like the Supreme Court justice who said I know obscenity when I see it. This was wrong on it's face, period.
Did you ever wonder why IU’s football team has historically had a disproportional number of General Studies majors (incredible that such a major is available at a Big Ten school) while almost no basketball players ever majored in GS? Hint: It had everything to do with the coaches. But thank goodness the NCAA didn’t try to tell IU what is and isn’t acceptable from a curriculum standpoint.
 
Did you ever wonder why IU’s football team has historically had a disproportional number of General Studies majors (incredible that such a major is available at a Big Ten school) while almost no basketball players ever majored in GS? Hint: It had everything to do with the coaches. But thank goodness the NCAA didn’t try to tell IU what is and isn’t acceptable from a curriculum standpoint.

That explains so many things about IU's football teams over the last 25 years.
 
That explains so many things about IU's football teams over the last 25 years.
It really explains much more about the kind of kids Knight recruited and his leverage over them and the program. It also deflates the high moral ground of some in regard to what is and isn’t acceptable from an academic standpoint.
 
Maybe the NCAA was over-thinking this issue. There are already independent organizations that certify colleges and universities on the basis of academics. The Higher Learning Commission in Chicago is one such organization and it accredits Indiana University, among many other schools.
Could the NCAA come up with a list of similar accrediting organizations and then pass a by-law stating an NCAA member school must be accredited by one of them?
 
Maybe the NCAA was over-thinking this issue. There are already independent organizations that certify colleges and universities on the basis of academics. The Higher Learning Commission in Chicago is one such organization and it accredits Indiana University, among many other schools.
Could the NCAA come up with a list of similar accrediting organizations and then pass a by-law stating an NCAA member school must be accredited by one of them?
They are.

"An active member is a four-year college or university or a two-year upper-level collegiate institution accredited by the appropriate regional accrediting agency and duly elected to active membership under the provisions of the Association bylaws. Active members have the right to compete in NCAA championships, to vote on legislation and other issues before the Association, and to enjoy other privileges of membership designated in the constitution and bylaws of the Association."

http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-are/membership/becoming-ncaa-member-institution
 
Ugh, I can't believe I'm getting drawn back in to this, and that folks are so thick-headed. Frankly, I don't think they are, I think they see and believe what they want, just as Roy Williams didn't know about these classes, while John Bunting and Butch Davis did... "awww shucks Roy, we believe you....NOT!"

I think a better analogy than your states vs federal rights, is the stock market. Some stocks are winners and some are losers and everything is fine as long as you or your advisors pick your own portfolio using legal methods. But, insider trading is illegal and should be. What UNC did is akin to insider trading. Athletic advisors and academics conspired to create sham courses and funneled players in to them solely to keep them eligible. It's not the content of courses that was wrong necessarily (they were), it's the willful and complicit efforts of academics and athletic advisors to create easy courses and funnel players to them to keep the eligible. And it's wrong on it's face. It's like the Supreme Court justice who said I know obscenity when I see it. This was wrong on it's face, period.

I tried to tell that the NCAA wanted no part in opening this can of worms.
 
I tried to tell that the NCAA wanted no part in opening this can of worms.
Exactly. The only people who are overthinking this are the ones obsessed with penalizing UNC for . . . something. Or anything. To them, it really doesn’t matter.
 
Last edited:
One problem is that the accrediting agencies can give a slap on the wrist or withdraw accreditation, nothing in between. The NCAA could give more appropriate punishment if it would.
 
They are.

"An active member is a four-year college or university or a two-year upper-level collegiate institution accredited by the appropriate regional accrediting agency and duly elected to active membership under the provisions of the Association bylaws. Active members have the right to compete in NCAA championships, to vote on legislation and other issues before the Association, and to enjoy other privileges of membership designated in the constitution and bylaws of the Association."

http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-are/membership/becoming-ncaa-member-institution
Okay. That's good. I like that. But, what happens if a school loses its accreditation or is put on probationary status by an accrediting agency?
 
Okay. That's good. I like that. But, what happens if a school loses its accreditation or is put on probationary status by an accrediting agency?
"In many cases, a loss of accreditation will force the college or university to close its doors. This is because the school will no longer be eligible to receive federal and state financial aid, which is a significant source of funding for many schools."

And you can read about probation here:
https://www.hlcommission.org/Policies/probation.html

And UNC was put on probation, then cleared after a year:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...on-agency-considered-dropping-north-carolina/
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Aloha Hoosier
I think baby blue should be banned from the NCAA. Then the problem would be remedied. No fake elephants anymore
 
I think baby blue should be banned from the NCAA. Then the problem would be remedied. No fake elephants anymore
I presume the NCAA's thinking is that athletics is their wheelhouse and academics is not, so it will leave academic issues to those who specialize in academics.
It may not be what we want it to be, but at least I can see a line of logic in their actions.
And, apparently, the accrediting groups give you one year to stop what you are doing to jeopardize your accreditation. And you're good as gold, as long as you stop misbehaving.
I'm not sure what to think of that approach ...
 
This situation can be explained by analogy to the federal powers versus state powers. Here, the NCAA is the federal government and individual conferences and schools are the states.

The states by and large objected to ceding their academic powers to the federal government, the NCAA. Preserving academic policing status quo is what's going on here. Really, none of this is very surprising. That was the gist of the matter from day one.

Academic accreditations matter, not NCAA bylaws, in policing individual schools' institutional academic integrity, because that's what (most of) the schools (states) want.

As to the race to the bottom, we will just have to see how schools will handle themselves from now on. UNC said they have cut the sham.
It will be an all out sprint to the bottom. If you the family and school care nothing of academics...
1. Blame (Fake) the educational struggle on ADHD or ADD. Sadly, not hard at all....happens regularly.
2. Get an IEP while in high school tied to the diagnoses.
3. IEP allows special exemptions for collegiate acceptance. An ACT of a 14 or 15 can easily get you into a D1 college.
4. Now that you're in, the student will most likely have to sit the freshman year for Academic purposes depending on the GPA and ACT score. However, everyone or maybe just select individuals will be taking P.E. courses only. The school reports straight A's and voila, student athlete reborn. Education be damned. Is it hard to pass PE courses, nah. NCAA grade requirements satisfied.

All out sprint to the bottom.
 
Last edited:
It will be an all out sprint to the bottom. If you the family and school care nothing of academics...
1. Blame (Fake) the educational struggle on ADHD or ADD. Sadly, not hard at all....happens regularly.
2. Get an IEP while in high school tied to the diagnoses.
3. IEP allows special exemptions for collegiate acceptance. An ACT of a 14 or 15 can easily get you into a D1 college.
4. Now that you're in, everyone or maybe just select individuals will be taking P.E. courses only. Education be damned. Is it hard to pass PE courses, nah. NCAA grade requirements satisfied.

All out sprint to the bottom.
Right now your post seems to be a bit of alphabets soup to me. It appears that you know quite a bit about an area I am interested in but ignorant of. So much for not ending a sentence with a preposition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: namnik
It will be an all out sprint to the bottom. If you the family and school care nothing of academics...
1. Blame (Fake) the educational struggle on ADHD or ADD. Sadly, not hard at all....happens regularly.
2. Get an IEP while in high school tied to the diagnoses.
3. IEP allows special exemptions for collegiate acceptance. An ACT of a 14 or 15 can easily get you into a D1 college.
4. Now that you're in, the student will most likely have to sit the freshman year for Academic purposes depending on the GPA and ACT score. However, everyone or maybe just select individuals will be taking P.E. courses only. The school reports straight A's and voila, student athlete reborn. Education be damned. Is it hard to pass PE courses, nah. NCAA grade requirements satisfied.

All out sprint to the bottom.
All of these things have been possible for decades. For some reason, however, it’s not occurring in the manner you’re suggesting. No need to pull the fire alarm.
 
It will be an all out sprint to the bottom. If you the family and school care nothing of academics...
1. Blame (Fake) the educational struggle on ADHD or ADD. Sadly, not hard at all....happens regularly.
2. Get an IEP while in high school tied to the diagnoses.
3. IEP allows special exemptions for collegiate acceptance. An ACT of a 14 or 15 can easily get you into a D1 college.
4. Now that you're in, the student will most likely have to sit the freshman year for Academic purposes depending on the GPA and ACT score. However, everyone or maybe just select individuals will be taking P.E. courses only. The school reports straight A's and voila, student athlete reborn. Education be damned. Is it hard to pass PE courses, nah. NCAA grade requirements satisfied.

All out sprint to the bottom.

Some of this happens already.
 
True, but it's been on the hush hush level. Now, go for it. NCAA has given the thumbs up.
That's not how I read it. The rule was not passed because membership schools rejected it by vote. It may be re-introduced if the egregious academic situation deteriorates further on campuses. If anything, I would expect the situation at schools to get better, because we've been through all this already, and schools don't want to erode their academics henceforth.
 
True, but it's been on the hush hush level. Now, go for it. NCAA has given the thumbs up.

Not really. Athletes at Oregon can earn academic credit for playing football or lifting weights. This happens at a lot of different schools.

PEIA 360. Football. 1 Credit.
Repeatable once for a maximum of 2 credits.

PEIA 371. Sport Conditioning I. 1 Credit.
Repeatable. A strength and conditioning training opportunity for varsity and club sport student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 372, 373. All PE activity courses are repeatable once for credit.

information.png
PEIA 372. Sport Conditioning II. 1 Credit.
Repeatable. A strength and conditioning training experience for varsity and club sports student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 371, 373. All PE activity classes are repeatable once for credit.

information.png
PEIA 373. Sport Conditioning III. 1 Credit.
A strength and conditioning training experience for varsity and club sport student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 371, 372. All PE activity courses are repeatable once for credit.
 
Another example:

"At least seven Saturdays each fall, thousands of Kansas State alumni return to Manhattan, Kan., to see the fruits of the students' work. The class? Varsity football. The instructor? Wildcats Coach Bill Snyder. Each semester, Kansas State athletes earn academic credit on the field in practice and games. Some athletes are able to count as many as four credit hours toward their academic degrees by playing on the school's sports teams."

"Kansas State isn't alone in allowing student-athletes to earn academic credit for playing sports. A Washington Post survey of physical education courses taught at the 117 schools that field Division I-A football teams found that nearly three dozen universities award academic credit for participation on intercollegiate sports teams. Eleven football teams in the Associated Press preseason top 25 poll have players earning academic credit for practicing, including defending co-national champion Southern California, which kicks off the 2004 season against Virginia Tech at FedEx Field on Saturday night."

"These classes have two requirements: (1) being a member of the sports teams and (2) attending practices and games."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...91-faa9-48c0-8e1b-ded29439c4e6/?noredirect=on
 
Just a thought...

Governor Mitch Daniels: Humanitarian and liberal studies bad.

PU President Mitch Daniels: Let’s push liberal studies degrees as much as we can. Market PU Global across the country with an emphasis on liberal studies degrees. That’s Mitch Daniels.
I don’t believe you’ve characterized MD accurately in either his role as Governor of Indiana or the President of Purdue. At best, it’s facile.
 
Just a thought...

Governor Mitch Daniels: Humanitarian and liberal studies bad.

PU President Mitch Daniels: Let’s push liberal studies degrees as much as we can. Market PU Global across the country with an emphasis on liberal studies degrees. That’s Mitch Daniels.
I think you meant humanities and liberal arts (studies). Humanitarian studies comprise learning about caring for populations in need:
https://www.fordham.edu/info/20526/majors_and_minors/1867/humanitarian_studies
 
Not really. Athletes at Oregon can earn academic credit for playing football or lifting weights. This happens at a lot of different schools.

PEIA 360. Football. 1 Credit.
Repeatable once for a maximum of 2 credits.

PEIA 371. Sport Conditioning I. 1 Credit.
Repeatable. A strength and conditioning training opportunity for varsity and club sport student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 372, 373. All PE activity courses are repeatable once for credit.

information.png
PEIA 372. Sport Conditioning II. 1 Credit.
Repeatable. A strength and conditioning training experience for varsity and club sports student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 371, 373. All PE activity classes are repeatable once for credit.

information.png
PEIA 373. Sport Conditioning III. 1 Credit.
A strength and conditioning training experience for varsity and club sport student-athletes. Sequence with PEIA 371, 372. All PE activity courses are repeatable once for credit.
But can they earn an entire degree in conditioning? No English, no math, only sports classes. Now they can.
 
Another example:

"At least seven Saturdays each fall, thousands of Kansas State alumni return to Manhattan, Kan., to see the fruits of the students' work. The class? Varsity football. The instructor? Wildcats Coach Bill Snyder. Each semester, Kansas State athletes earn academic credit on the field in practice and games. Some athletes are able to count as many as four credit hours toward their academic degrees by playing on the school's sports teams."

"Kansas State isn't alone in allowing student-athletes to earn academic credit for playing sports. A Washington Post survey of physical education courses taught at the 117 schools that field Division I-A football teams found that nearly three dozen universities award academic credit for participation on intercollegiate sports teams. Eleven football teams in the Associated Press preseason top 25 poll have players earning academic credit for practicing, including defending co-national champion Southern California, which kicks off the 2004 season against Virginia Tech at FedEx Field on Saturday night."

"These classes have two requirements: (1) being a member of the sports teams and (2) attending practices and games."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...91-faa9-48c0-8e1b-ded29439c4e6/?noredirect=on

How sad; look at what you're reduced to: trying to find easy courses at other schools to try and somehow validate what happened at UNC. Sad. Again, congratulations?
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT