Louisville sits at 8-1 in the ACC with some very impressive road wins, are a top 25 team

[IUNorth]

Let’s look at Hurley’s first championship team (again)

Sanogo-Junior and at UConn since Freshman
Hawkins-Soph and at UConn sine Freshman
Karaban-Freshman at UConn
Clingan-Freshman at UConn
Newton-Portal first year at UConn
Jackson-Junior and at UConn since freshman

To imply Hurley built this championship team from the Portal/NIL is just not true. One player (Newton that averaged 6 ppg) with significant playing time was from the portal.

They don't even sniff that championship without Newton. He completely changed that team...actually they don't sniff either championship without him.

Same with Spencer.

And he wouldn't have had either of those guys without the portal. And he wouldn't have had Castle, or been able to keep that Natty team together, without their NIL budget. Nothing in Hurley's history showed what was going to happen for them 2 years ago. Newton completely changed how they were able to defend and run their offense. And then guys like Spencer and Castle, and Newton, allowed Hurley to tweak things, change course, and actually get better after losing Hawkins, Jackson, and Sanogo.

Without portal/NIL dynamics, Hurley likely continues to builld a solid program, NCAA tourney level teams, etc... Its disingenuous though, to say that the portal/NIL didn't push him over the top.

That's my exact point with regards to IU. Get a good college coach...one that's proven to run effective style and principles... then allow him, by virtue of IU's top level resources, to basically go compete for, and ultimately get, elite level players that fit their style and goals. At a minimum, that coach...and there are lots of them out there capable of it...that coach is more successful, and more enjoyable to follow, than Woodson. There are NEVER any sure things, or certainties...so there's no way of knowing how successful they'd be. But really anything better than what Woodson has done, and that is a solid style the fans can invest in...will be popular, and it will help to build momentum in the program.

 

[CriticArisen]

I believe they would have more than sniffed a championship without him but he did plug a hole that Hurley saw.

They don't even sniff that championship without Newton. He completely changed that team...actually they don't sniff either championship without him.

Same with Spencer.

And he wouldn't have had either of those guys without the portal. And he wouldn't have had Castle, or been able to keep that Natty team together, without their NIL budget. Nothing in Hurley's history showed what was going to happen for them 2 years ago. Newton completely changed how they were able to defend and run their offense. And then guys like Spencer and Castle, and Newton, allowed Hurley to tweak things, change course, and actually get better after losing Hawkins, Jackson, and Sanogo.

Without portal/NIL dynamics, Hurley likely continues to builld a solid program, NCAA tourney level teams, etc... Its disingenuous though, to say that the portal/NIL didn't push him over the top.

That's my exact point with regards to IU. Get a good college coach...one that's proven to run effective style and principles... then allow him, by virtue of IU's top level resources, to basically go compete for, and ultimately get, elite level players that fit their style and goals. At a minimum, that coach...and there are lots of them out there capable of it...that coach is more successful, and more enjoyable to follow, than Woodson. There are NEVER any sure things, or certainties...so there's no way of knowing how successful they'd be. But really anything better than what Woodson has done, and that is a solid style the fans can invest in...will be popular, and it will help to build momentum in the program.

I believe they would have more than sniffed a championship without him but he did plug a hole that Hurley saw. Waived by the Pacers a couple weeks ago. Clingan is averaging 5.6 ppg and 17 minutes at Portland.

 

[IUNorth]

Sorry but not buying it. This sounds like the exact reasoning that resulted in this season. NIL is not the most important factor that results in a national championship. If it were Arkansas and IU would be in the national championship game.

The less resume a coaching hire has the higher the risk. To outplay the competition, that has good to excellent coaching and NIL and the portal, IU needs an exceptional coach.

Calipari got ran out of town because all he ever has done is chased star ratings talent. Woodson doesn't have a clue what types of players would thrive in his system...largely because he doesn't really have reliable, repeatable, tenets in his system, to try to match players too. Or if he does, he can't coach them in to his teams with any consistency

My main point...surprised you're missing this...is actually not anything like what happened to IU this past season. Its to 1)go get a good, proven, college basketball coach that has demonstrated they have a repeatable winning style. I've made this point numerous times now. THEN 2)see what a coach like that can do with top level resources NIL wise.

Its not accurate, at all really, to say that "everyone" else has the same resources IU has. That's not true. And certainly isn't true with our main peer group, the B10. The first step in all this is for IU to become a top level B10 program again, that gives them higher seeding, likely more favorable NCAA tourney matchups, and obviously implies we have a good basketball team. We have more resources than any other B10 program. Good college coach + IU's resources = B10 contender. That shouldn't be a reach. Give a good coach those ingredients, and those conditions, and becoming FF competitive, at IU, is possible for a number of the guys out there that Dolson will likely be talking to.

 

[kkott]

NIL/Portal became the monster that it is today, late in the offseason between the 20-21 and 21-22 seasons. All we've ever experienced, at IU, with the current dynamics are Woodson coached teams. Look at the number of teams that have emerged, risen and fallen, etc... during the last 3 plus seasons. It gives good college basketball coaches an easier path to filling their rosters with players that fit their style. And since recruiting is an imperfect science, when they miss, its easier to react on a yearly basis.

Archie...he was at IU during the height of "Bill of Rights" philosophies. He inherited some players, and had very little "power" to reshape his roster when he arrived. Its easy to say its your job, go handle it, make the roster how you see fit...now a days. Back then, he literally could not do that. So its very possible, for the first couple years, part of his sourness was attributed to coaching kids that he knew didn't really fit how he wanted his teams to play. How different could his time at IU have been, if he had the IU powers of NIL and portal free reign, to go get guys the best combo of guys that fit how he wanted his teams to play?

Still doesn't change the off the court dynamics that a coach has to navigate and may even make that harder and more complex, as now you better be able to really sell your key boosters to stock your NIL bankroll. If you think Archie hated being interviewed, you think he's going to suddenly become Tony Robbins having drinks/dinner with wealthy boosters? That's my whole point, many of these guys struggle because it's mostly X's and Os in their toolbag and now they suddenly have to deal with a couple dozen other competing interests. Don't think NIL changes that at all and may even complicate it more.

 

[BabyHoop]

Calipari got ran out of town because all he ever has done is chased star ratings talent. Woodson doesn't have a clue what types of players would thrive in his system...largely because he doesn't really have reliable, repeatable, tenets in his system, to try to match players too. Or if he does, he can't coach them in to his teams with any consistency

My main point...surprised you're missing this...is actually not anything like what happened to IU this past season. Its to 1)go get a good, proven, college basketball coach that has demonstrated they have a repeatable winning style. I've made this point numerous times now. THEN 2)see what a coach like that can do with top level resources NIL wise.

Its not accurate, at all really, to say that "everyone" else has the same resources IU has. That's not true. And certainly isn't true with our main peer group, the B10. The first step in all this is for IU to become a top level B10 program again, that gives them higher seeding, likely more favorable NCAA tourney matchups, and obviously implies we have a good basketball team. We have more resources than any other B10 program. Good college coach + IU's resources = B10 contender. That shouldn't be a reach. Give a good coach those ingredients, and those conditions, and becoming FF competitive, at IU, is possible for a number of the guys out there that Dolson will likely be talking to.

So, in other words, follow Louisville's blueprint.

 

[IUNorth]

I believe they would have more than sniffed a championship without him but he did plug a hole that Hurley saw.

I believe they would have more than sniffed a championship without him but he did plug a hole that Hurley saw. Waived by the Pacers a couple weeks ago. Clingan is averaging 5.6 ppg and 17 minutes at Portland.

Then you really don't have much of a clue on what drives winning basketball. And Hurley himself would disagree with you.

Newton completely changed that team, how they defended, and how they pushed the ball and ran their offense. Hurley has even talked about how Newton taking over that team, within that first Natty season, is what changed everything for them.

Not sure why Clingan is being discussed...I never mentioned him, with regards to any of this. I've talked about Newton, Spencer, and Castle. I actually don't think it would have been difficult to keep Clingan, specifically, after the first Natty. He didn't have a huge role on the first Natty team. So the specific portal/NIL dynamics, with regards to Clingan, maybe a guy like Karaban too, doesn't really apply.

Again...Hurley was a solid coach...he was gonna be a solidly successful coach at UConn eventually, especially when Murray joined up. But he doesn't win either Natty without Newton that first year...and then Newton AND Spencer AND Castle in year 2. And portal/NIL played a big role in those. And if they do something special again this year...I'd say the same thing about him pulling McNeeley away. His advantage is being a good coach, running an attractive program, with high levels of NIL resources.

I have no idea if there are any coaches out there that are as good as the combo of Hurley, Murray, and UConn's resources and history? But his coaching history prior to NIL/Portal would be similar to literally hundreds of potential candidates at IU. I actually give Hurley a ton more credit than that, and I think he actually proves my point more than anything.

 

[CriticArisen]

Calipari got ran out of town because all he ever has done is chased star ratings talent. Woodson doesn't have a clue what types of players would thrive in his system...largely because he doesn't really have reliable, repeatable, tenets in his system, to try to match players too. Or if he does, he can't coach them in to his teams with any consistency

My main point...surprised you're missing this...is actually not anything like what happened to IU this past season. Its to 1)go get a good, proven, college basketball coach that has demonstrated they have a repeatable winning style. I've made this point numerous times now. THEN 2)see what a coach like that can do with top level resources NIL wise.

Its not accurate, at all really, to say that "everyone" else has the same resources IU has. That's not true. And certainly isn't true with our main peer group, the B10. The first step in all this is for IU to become a top level B10 program again, that gives them higher seeding, likely more favorable NCAA tourney matchups, and obviously implies we have a good basketball team. We have more resources than any other B10 program. Good college coach + IU's resources = B10 contender. That shouldn't be a reach. Give a good coach those ingredients, and those conditions, and becoming FF competitive, at IU, is possible for a number of the guys out there that Dolson will likely be talking to.

You have for years had a view of college basketball that I simply don’t agree with. Your view has consistently been biased to ratings based recruiting of players. This was your view with five star and one and dones and now with the portal/NIL. My position is that you start with an exceptional coach and the player acquisitions follow based on his evaluation of talent and what he requires for his system. You can write hundreds of pages and I will still fundamentally disagree with your view.

 

[GThomas]

I don't think we need a "perfect fit" this next time around.

And this thinking is why IU basketball is where it is.

 

[IUNorth]

Still doesn't change the off the court dynamics that a coach has to navigate and may even make that harder and more complex, as now you better be able to really sell your key boosters to stock your NIL bankroll. If you think Archie hated being interviewed, you think he's going to suddenly become Tony Robbins having drinks/dinner with wealthy boosters? That's my whole point, many of these guys struggle because it's mostly X's and Os in their toolbag and now they suddenly have to deal with a couple dozen other competing interests. Don't think NIL changes that at all and may even complicate it more.

NIL isn't a set number...first off. Any new coach we hire will have top 5-10 level resources there nationally...automatically, just by virtue of being hired at IU. Whether or not they schmooze the whales or not. And then if they win, they won't ever need to schmooze all that much.

This isn't all that hard... PROVEN good college basketball coach + IU's resources = very good levels of success at IU. The odds are heavily favor of that being true over not being true. And that's without factoring anything else in, personality, style of play, age, whatever...

If you're Dolson, and you're worried about Bucky McMillan's ability to handle the IU pressures...combined with his relatively unproven track record of success...don't go with that guy. But if he's a dynamic personality, and you love his style of play (as I do), maybe you roll the dice with his lack of an established track record?

But then if a guy like McCollum is interested, and maybe a little boring to talk to, maybe you have a little bit of a concern about him wanting to schmooze boosters... then maybe go look at the record books and see his National Titles, his national coach of the year...

Darian DeVries...kind of a blend between the two of those guys, in many ways.

Obviously any of the more proven P4 guys like Oats, Beard, Golden, maybe May (ehh), Jans maybe by the end of the year, etc...

 

[IUNorth]

You have for years had a view of college basketball that I simply don’t agree with. Your view has consistently been biased to ratings based recruiting of players. This was your view with five star and one and dones and now with the portal/NIL. My position is that you start with an exceptional coach and the player acquisitions follow based on his evaluation of talent and what he requires for his system. You can write hundreds of pages and I will still fundamentally disagree with your view.

I've used star ratings in the past with reference to winning National Championships, yes. And the evidence for that is irrefutable. Even back to the RMK years, he won titles when he had elite talent. Anyone that argues that is either 1)willfully ignorant to the facts 2)the type that's beholden to false narratives...maybe that RMK won NCAA titles with "less"...in 87, did he have "less" talent than UNLV/Syracuse maybe?...sure. But it wasn't like Butler almost beating Duke levels of difference. Alford was a HS All American, Calloway burger boy, Thomas elite level player nationally. 81 had Isaiah... He basically never accomplished anything major, at IU, without having multiple nationally elite level players on the roster. So if that's driving any of this...just stop. Outside IU, basically every single National Champion has had star ratings talent, and/or NBA level talent.

That's where IU's NIL resources come in to play here. And with regards to star ratings...I think the need for 5 star HS players has been greatly diminished by the portal. But you still need elite, NBA level talent, to win National Titles. 5 star HS kids can still be a part of that...but proven, elite level college portal kids are as well.

But having said all that... basically every single thing I've said on this subject is go get a "good college coach"...and let him build with the tools IU's elite level resources allow for. If someone that's already great materializes...Stevens maybe... I don't know who else would even apply...maybe Oats? But beyond that, there are dozens upon dozens of "good college coaches" to choose from. And with varying degrees of likelihood, could become "great" at IU.

I'm not saying that we can hire "just anyone". Not that we can, or should, discount the need for various traits and aspects that create "good college coaches"...contrary, I've listed very specific traits and criteria in the past that I'd use if I were Dolson. And none of them include "has recruited 5 star players.

Woodson has us in a position to be considered an "average program". There are probably over 100 coaches out there that would have us in a better spot than Woodson has had us, and has us now. And success in college bball can be influenced by momentum. Both on the court and off it. We can't consistently compete for B10 titles with a bum for a coach, Davis, Crean, Miller, and Woodson proved that. But Davis and Crean both proved you CAN compete sporadically nationally when you have elite talent, even if you're not an awesome coach.

So...how about we just go hire a good basketball coach, and see what our resources can do to help him become great.

 

[kurt cloverdales]

I've used star ratings in the past with reference to winning National Championships, yes. And the evidence for that is irrefutable. Even back to the RMK years, he won titles when he had elite talent. Anyone that argues that is either 1)willfully ignorant to the facts 2)the type that's beholden to false narratives...maybe that RMK won NCAA titles with "less"...in 87, did he have "less" talent than UNLV/Syracuse maybe?...sure. But it wasn't like Butler almost beating Duke levels of difference. Alford was a HS All American, Calloway burger boy, Thomas elite level player nationally. 81 had Isaiah... He basically never accomplished anything major, at IU, without having multiple nationally elite level players on the roster. So if that's driving any of this...just stop. Outside IU, basically every single National Champion has had star ratings talent, and/or NBA level talent.

That's where IU's NIL resources come in to play here. And with regards to star ratings...I think the need for 5 star HS players has been greatly diminished by the portal. But you still need elite, NBA level talent, to win National Titles. 5 star HS kids can still be a part of that...but proven, elite level college portal kids are as well.

But having said all that... basically every single thing I've said on this subject is go get a "good college coach"...and let him build with the tools IU's elite level resources allow for. If someone that's already great materializes...Stevens maybe... I don't know who else would even apply...maybe Oats? But beyond that, there are dozens upon dozens of "good college coaches" to choose from. And with varying degrees of likelihood, could become "great" at IU.

I'm not saying that we can hire "just anyone". Not that we can, or should, discount the need for various traits and aspects that create "good college coaches"...contrary, I've listed very specific traits and criteria in the past that I'd use if I were Dolson. And none of them include "has recruited 5 star players.

Woodson has us in a position to be considered an "average program". There are probably over 100 coaches out there that would have us in a better spot than Woodson has had us, and has us now. And success in college bball can be influenced by momentum. Both on the court and off it. We can't consistently compete for B10 titles with a bum for a coach, Davis, Crean, Miller, and Woodson proved that. But Davis and Crean both proved you CAN compete nationally when you have elite talent, even if you're not an awesome coach.

So...how about we just go hire a good basketball coach, and see what our resources can do to help him become great.

you use a lot of words to say something simple. we need a good coach, and success will follow

 

[IUNorth]

you use a lot of words to say something simple. we need a good coach, and success will follow

Yep...and there are dozens of them out there.

 

[CriticArisen]

NIL isn't a set number...first off. Any new coach we hire will have top 5-10 level resources there nationally...automatically, just by virtue of being hired at IU. Whether or not they schmooze the whales or not. And then if they win, they won't ever need to schmooze all that much. This isn't all that hard... PROVEN good college basketball coach + IU's resources = very good levels of success at IU. The odds are heavily favor of that being true over not being true. And that's without factoring anything else in, personality, style of play, age, whatever... If you're Dolson, and you're worried about Bucky McMillan's ability to handle the IU pressures...combined with his relatively unproven track record of success...don't go with that guy. But if he's a dynamic personality, and you love his style of play (as I do), maybe you roll the dice with his lack of an established track record? But then if a guy like McCollum is interested, and maybe a little boring to talk to, maybe you have a little bit of a concern about him wanting to schmooze boosters... then maybe go look at the record books and see his National Titles, his national coach of the year... Darian DeVries...kind of a blend between the two of those guys, in many ways. Obviously any of the more proven P4 guys like Oats, Beard, Golden, maybe May (ehh), Jans maybe by the end of the year, etc...

Then you really don't have much of a clue on what drives winning basketball. And Hurley himself would disagree with you.

Newton completely changed that team, how they defended, and how they pushed the ball and ran their offense. Hurley has even talked about how Newton taking over that team, within that first Natty season, is what changed everything for them.

Not sure why Clingan is being discussed...I never mentioned him, with regards to any of this. I've talked about Newton, Spencer, and Castle. I actually don't think it would have been difficult to keep Clingan, specifically, after the first Natty. He didn't have a huge role on the first Natty team. So the specific portal/NIL dynamics, with regards to Clingan, maybe a guy like Karaban too, doesn't really apply.

Again...Hurley was a solid coach...he was gonna be a solidly successful coach at UConn eventually, especially when Murray joined up. But he doesn't win either Natty without Newton that first year...and then Newton AND Spencer AND Castle in year 2. And portal/NIL played a big role in those. And if they do something special again this year...I'd say the same thing about him pulling McNeeley away. His advantage is being a good coach, running an attractive program, with high levels of NIL resources.

I have no idea if there are any coaches out there that are as good as the combo of Hurley, Murray, and UConn's resources and history? But his coaching history prior to NIL/Portal would be similar to literally hundreds of potential candidates at IU. I actually give Hurley a ton more credit than that, and I think he actually proves my point more than anything.

Jeez IUNorth you mentioned high priced freshmen.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Jeez IUNorth you mentioned high priced freshmen.

Supposedly we're getting a big commitment tomorrow. An international player I believe.

 

[CriticArisen]

Supposedly we're getting a big commitment tomorrow. An international player I believe.

That’s interesting.

 

[CG Paul]

Supposedly we're getting a big commitment tomorrow. An international player I believe.

Where are you seeing/hearing this? Thanks.

Edit: I see he’s set an announcement date (tomorrow).

Indiana basketball international target sets college decision date

Indiana basketball international target Harun Zrno expected to make a decision this Friday.

hoosierillustrated.com

 

[IUNorth]

Jeez IUNorth you mentioned high priced freshmen.

I probably did...and referenced Castle. Your point?

 

[CriticArisen]

I probably did...and referenced Castle. Your point?

How about this

“, and multiple high level HS guys that likely commanded top dollar NIL wise. Hmmmmmmmm....”

 

[CriticArisen]

In hindsight national championships are easy but before the fact very very very difficult

 

[dbmhoosier]

Where are you seeing/hearing this? Thanks.

Edit: I see he’s set an announcement date (tomorrow).

Indiana basketball international target sets college decision date

Indiana basketball international target Harun Zrno expected to make a decision this Friday.

hoosierillustrated.com

No idea if we’re getting him but the people on the other boards think so.

 

[IUNorth]

How about this

“, and multiple high level HS guys that likely commanded top dollar NIL wise. Hmmmmmmmm....”

Cool...how about the beginning of that sentence that references Portal players? How about the multiple sentences and paragraphs before and after where I say that "good college coaching" is what's required first...with the original point being... there are dozens of good college coaches out there, that with IUs resources...yes, NIL money included...would be big improvements to what we have today. And would give IU a chance to get back to where we want to be.

This whole "all programs have what we have" talk is lazy. Indiana is still a top level race car. We need someone that's proven they can drive race cars well, for sure, but we don't need Dale Earnhardt to win big again.

My theory is there's a pretty decent sized list of current college coaches, that with IU's resources, could win big at IU. The only coach we've ever had that has had a crack at it, under the current conditions and dynamics, is Mike Woodson. He's awful, in my opinion. 2 NCAA tournaments though, 2nd place finish one year in the conference. Pretty much any good coach will be varying degrees better than Woodson has been. None of us have any idea how much of an accelerant our resources will end up being...but I'm arguing when all of them are taken together, they'll be substantial...and most "good coaches" would be very successful at IU.

 

[CriticArisen]

Cool...how about the beginning of that sentence that references Portal players? How about the multiple sentences and paragraphs before and after where I say that "good college coaching" is what's required first...with the original point being... there are dozens of good college coaches out there, that with IUs resources...yes, NIL money included...would be big improvements to what we have today. And would give IU a chance to get back to where we want to be.

This whole "all programs have what we have" talk is lazy. Indiana is still a top level race car. We need someone that's proven they can drive race cars well, for sure, but we don't need Dale Earnhardt to win big again.

My theory is there's a pretty decent sized list of current college coaches, that with IU's resources, could win big at IU. The only coach we've ever had that has had a crack at it, under the current conditions and dynamics, is Mike Woodson. He's awful, in my opinion. 2 NCAA tournaments though, 2nd place finish one year in the conference. Pretty much any good coach will be varying degrees better than Woodson has been. None of us have any idea how much of an accelerant our resources will end up being...but I'm arguing when all of them are taken together, they'll be substantial...and most "good coaches" would be very successful at IU.

Whatever. Throw a dart at your list and national championship on the way.

 

[CriticArisen]

No idea if we’re getting him but the people on the other boards think so.

View embedded media

Wow. A potential shooter.

 

[IUNorth]

Whatever. Throw a dart at your list and national championship on the way.

Ha ha...I guess we could stick with Woodson. And play darts with pieces of paper or something. Its hard to get them to stick though??

Great coaches become great coaches after they've accomplished great things.

I want IU to be competing regularly for B10 titles...with basically no seasons where we miss the NCAA tournament. We need a good basketball coach for that.

I ALSO want us to have teams that have legit chances at Nattys, every now and then...For that... you need talent. "Elite, NBA level, 4-5 stars, portal studs"...however you want to define it. I just think you increase your chances of having it, when you have the NIL resources we have, and you go after them. Crean had them, and had a team that could have won a natty. Davis had them, and was a couple horrific coaching decisions away from hanging a natty. Neither of them were good coaches, neither of them were consistently competitive at the top of the conference.

I don't want one without the other, however. And I have a strong suspicion, that in the new (less than 4 year old new) dynamics of the NIL+Portal era...that IU's resources can greatly help with the 2nd desire. And that there are quite a number of coaches that will be available that can adequately cover the 1st desire. Especially with the aid of all our resources.

Will Dolson ultimately pick one of them? No clue. But the odds are better now than they used to be.