Why would Lincoln having surrogates sign pardons be nonsense? Do you know what Lincoln's stated desires were?
Looks like the Supreme Court has another case headed their way...
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Trying to void Biden’s pardon bc of auto pen is nonsense
That opinion is totally bizarre. Besides it being contrary to the express language of Article I Section 7, it assumes the drafters were unaware of the 1000 years of precedent goat keeps mentioning. If the drafters wanted to follow the common law, they wouldn’t have written the constitution as they did. Importantly, the very next section (concerning resolutions etc) the drafters spoke about approval, not signature. Notably also , the drafters didn’t mention signature regarding pardons.
Push comes to shove and I knock the shit out of that 30-page opinion in 4 pages. .
Jesus, what have we come to? That we’re having so many of these conversations is absolutely horrifying. That some of you willingly carry every drop of water for this is effing surreal . Add auto pen to the list of b*llshit you had never thought about — not once — before this administration decided to assail all of our government’s norms. That list mostly includes crap that gets us no closer to leaner and more effective government or balanced budgets. 80% of their agenda will fail in court and the rest can apparently be undone with EOs, including the few good ideas they’ve had.
Whose rules? Doesn't the President as the leader of the Executive Branch get to make the rules for how he will affix his signature? Is there a law forbidding the use of autopen or the requirement for a handwritten signature?
Isn't it funny how few lawyers tell war stories about all those times they were wrong?
Ahh. I knew MAGA would creep in. Do you take this position because it makes sense, or because you are so anti-Trump?
This has nothing to do with MAGA.
Show me where the Constitution requires a signature for a pardon. I'll spot you the provision:
Article II, Section 2, Clause 1:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
There is a requirement that the President "sign" a bill into law in Article 1, Sec. 7. So the fact that a specific reference to a signing in the document in another place, but not here, is good textual evidence that Art. II, Sec. 2 does not require a signature.
Historical precedent has already been provided.
I can't think of a structural argument other than the one I outlined above re separation of powers on who determines how a pardon is issued--a core Presidential power. In fact, there's a DOJ opinion from the Bush administration that finds the use of autopen legitimate even for the Art. 1, Sec. 7 signing requirement.
Doctrinally, In Re De Puy (1869) is the only one close, and it says that once issued, a pardon may not be revoked: “The law undoubtedly is, that when a pardon is complete, there is no power to revoke it, any more than there is power to revoke any other completed act.”
I'd win 9-0 and might get you sanctioned.
Fact-checking Trump's claim that Biden pardons are 'void' because he used an autopen
Legal scholars say that the Constitution doesn’t require a pardon’s direct human signing, and subsequent judicial decisions and legal memoranda support an autopen’s use for similar purposes.
www.pbs.org
ETA: I didn't include prudential arguments which would just be gilding the lily.
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Since a pardon need not be a signed document, what does the presence of an auto-penned signature add to your argument?
It doesn’t. My argument about a pardon is how would a defendant who claimed the benefit of a pardon prove that there is one?
Judicial notice.
Pardons are published in the Federal Register.
44 U.S.C. § 1507 explicitly states that the contents of the Federal Register shall be judicially noticed.
Your position on this is extreme and only given any credence among MAGAs. They were all over this for a couple days in social media. Now they’re all about impeaching judges for decisions they don’t like and defending their new hero, Musk, from the mean media, fake news, and libtards/shitlibs. They’ll move on to something else to be outraged about. It changes almost daily. It’s hard to keep up with the grievances and hatred.
I see this on both sides. It’s been accelerated and amplified by social media and its monetization. Grievance, outrage, and hatred generate lots of clicks. I’m not sure there is a solution.
A weakness of capitalism in the age of social media?
It absolutely is on both sides, but the one side is dominating at the moment.
So this entire thread was a waste of time.
Don’t start that. We’ll be left with the soccer thread
Nope. I said if the only evidence of a pardon is an auto-penned document, there must be extrinsic evidence to establish the pardon. @BradStevens supplied it. That ends the argument about whether autopen is real or a facsimile.
You should see someone about your Co. H obsession. Now go vandalize a Tesla like a good Democrat.
WTF? What is extreme? My argument about facsimile signature on legislation is rock solid. The opinion from Bush’s counsel is so full of holes that they couldn’t plug in 30 pages. In court it caries no more weight than my opinion.
wanna be dictator
Trump says Biden’s autopen pardons are ‘void, vacant and of no further force or effect,’ vows probe of Jan. 6 House select committee
President Trump claims pardons made by Biden in the last minutes of his presidency have been “VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT” since the former commander-in-chief used “Autopen.”…nypost.com
The Biden extended family (along with several other folks) might be moving to Ecuador soon (no ext. treaty)... 😉😎
🙈🙉🙊
🍺🇺🇸🍺
Now go bear spray a DC police officer and bludgeon him/her with a flagpole, like a good Trump cultist
Or set fires to cities and injure over 2000 cops on a false narrative and ride your bike on the sidewalk with your mask on like a woke cultist
Have you figured out that you’re in a cult yet? That you’ve been brainwashed?
It's extreme because you and the more extreme MAGAs are the only ones making the extreme assertion that using an autopen makes a document void. Besides, we don't even know an autopen was used on those pardons or that President Biden didn't authorize them. All this is ado about nothing came from our President's evidence free middle of the night butthurt rant about pardoning the J6 committee congressmen and staffers.
The OLC's opinions historically carry a lot of weight.
I never said that.
They are not entitled to a presumption of correctness in court.
Far be it from me to defend CO.H, who Lord knows I've picked on numerous times for his obstinacy, but in this case, I got the impression he was just engaging in a littler exercise of arguing for argument's sake. Retired lawyers need an outlet, you know.
