Looks like the Supreme Court has another case headed their way...
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Your thousand years of precedent is just the opposite. A facsimile of an official record is not self- authenticating and carries no presumption of validity. The FRE makes this very clear. Look it up.
An auto pen is the same thing as a rubber stamp. An anutopenned official document is not self- authenticating.
Because they actually have the pardons on paper. That's prima facie evidence of a valid pardon. Prosecutor can't simply say, "yeah we stopped accepting those."
An auto pen is not a facsimile of an official record. It is the official record.
You still wouldn’t shift the burden. Fauci gets indicted the burden rests with the defendant to prove he has a valid pardon. It’s a defense. Between the judge and the defense
I meant once he presents the pardon in court, the burden shifts back to the prosecution. I do not accept that the autopen makes the document inadequate as proof of the pardon.
I don’t either
Every legal beagle on air yesterday talking about this thing thinks that the President's post about the autopen and voiding pardons is totally bogus. Every single one. To paraphrase and summarize the unanimous opinions expressed:
1. Trump claims that they were signed with an autopen but there is no verification of that.
2. President Trump claimed that President Biden didn't even know about the pardons, but there was no evidence of that and like easily proven false because President Biden talked about possibly issuing those pardons just two weeks prior - on the record. If asked, President Biden will say he signed them or he knew they'd be signed with an autopen and that would be the end of that.
3. If they were signed with an autopen, they would be legal just like the documents of previous Presidents signed by autopen.
4. If the President took action to try to prosecute those whose pardons he pronounced invalid, it'll go to court, and the President will lose very quickly.
I know you like to take the contrary view to everything in support of President Trump's pronouncements, but you appear to be literally the only one that is taking his pronouncement serious in this case.
Get a Fing pen and nunc pro tunc that shit and go back to bed
I was going to say, even if CO.H is right, which I will not grant, they can fix this easily by having Biden sign a bunch of affidavits today with a real pen.
And thank God they’ve now said that segregation of bathrooms, drinking fountains and other federal contractors facilities are no longer explicitly prohibited. Yay, we’re going back to the good old days. Happy Days Are Here Again. Keep it coming baby. Next up, segregated locker rooms and sports teams. Boy this is going to be a fun four years. Oh yeah and the administration doesn’t have to obey federal court orders. Can anyone guess where this happens? If you guessed Russia, China and other dictatorships you guessed right. I would have put North Korea on that list but they don’t have courts. They just execute anyone who disagrees.
Oh yeah. And if you by chance aren’t like by the current administration, you can’t hire the best lawyers if you can hire one at all. Because they’ll be banned by the president. Or no law firm will take your case because they’re afraid of retaliation from the government. Great country. And when your enemies like Russia and China applaud you for getting rid of the Voice of America you know your on the right track.
You do know that the administration doesn’t care what the courts say. Stephen Miller said so in an interview with Kasey Hunt. And since SCOTUS has given this president complete immunity, how do you think the courts can enforce their rulings? Anyone who believes this is good for this country is just plain ignorant or stupid or more likely supportive until there’s a democratic president. I hate what’s happening to our country.
Get used to it. 27 percent of registered voters view the Dem party favorably. Record low
Our disdain for each other is certainly going to facilitate the end of democracy.
I just want to get it on record here that I, for one, don't disdain you.
I blame media and social media. For almost everything. Trump and AOC have the loudest voices. Hence party leaders. Joe Rogan is more influential than abc cbs and nbc
Will you serve as a character witness at my future show trial?
I might be right behind you -- as a collaborator.
As a society we are becoming dumber, drugged and lazy. Politics follows society.
I don’t think any legal scholar would agree with #3 absent evidence that was the President’s intention.
#4 is the way a disputed pardon should play out. If the defendant only has a facsimile signature, the defendant will have the burden to show the pardon is valid.
Eh. A ratification when he is out of office.? How does that work? The ratification would need to come from Trump. In any event I’m not sure post hoc bootstrapping is effective. Best is some contemporaneous document or record.
If Biden approved the pardons, then they are valid, whether he signed them or not. All a court needs is his authentication.
Again, I think the document is sufficient, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But there's zero reason to think Trump would be needed for anything.
I don't think the pardons should have been issued because they were unnecessary, and I don't like the idea of preemptive pardons, but I'm going with all the legal scholars I listened to yesterday. The pardons are valid and anyone arguing the opposite in a court would lose.
The one thing they thought to be interesting was the idea of preemptive pardons and whether that could be litigated.
I think this is the bottom line here. And I think it's safe to assume that there won't be one person from the Biden Administration, up to and including Biden himself, who will say that these pardons were executed without his knowledge and consent.
The suggestion that he was non compos mentis is also being tossed out there to muddy the water -- as in "OK, maybe he did approve the pardons...but he wasn't mentally competent to do so". Part of this is Speaker Johnson's anecdote about Biden reportedly not recalling signing an order to freeze new LNG export permits.
That's not going anywhere either. Biden was duly empowered to carry out all of the duties, powers, and privileges of POTUS until noon on 1/20/2025.
And I say that as somebody who was saying that Biden was visibly slipping and should bow out of the race back in early 2023.
What a stupid fkn discussion.
Man, you're not kidding.
Donald Trump is a like a toreador with a red muleta....and the Internet is filled with a bunch of dumb bulls who take the bait every single time.
This was of interest for one day on the air. Yesterday and today I've listened to POTUS while I work on a project for a contractor (part-time gig in my retirement) and every show had legal scholars on yesterday to do a segment on President Trump's Truth Social post. Today it hasn't been mentioned once that I recall.
It's all part of flooding the zone with so many piles of crap that the critics don't know which one to focus on, for how long, etc. By the time they get around to chatting about one of them, there are three more to pick from.
In a way, it's diabolically shrewd. This is why David Axelrod refers to Donald Trump as a "feral genius." He's not wrong about that.
Were the legal scholars talking about Trumps Truth Social post? I don’t agree with it either. If the pardons are challenged, Trump is wrong about how that would play out.
I wonder if any of those legal scholars actually tried to get a facsimile of an official document into evidence without extrinsic authentication.
His post that the pardons for the select committee were “void, vacant, and of no further force or effect” because the pardons were allegedly signed by an autopen. The entire post by the President looks like something some drunk and cranky old man would post in the middle of the night, by the way. Unfortunately, that's nothing new.
You could offer to take the President's side as a pro bono attorney if this somehow ever got to a court. I fear you'd add a loss to your otherwise stellar record.
The larger point is that Orange Jesus doesn’t care about the law, the Constitution, and abiding by a lawful order issued by a judge that is in opposition to his position and perceived authority. Can rational people not see that this is exactly how dictators rule? They put fear in the populace to keep control of them on every level. He has the DOJ doing his bidding and the FBI investigating any and all who speak out. I truly fear for my kids and grandkids future. If we didn’t have a lease for my wife’s business we’d be moving out of the country to a Caribbean island. She’s an RN so she is in high demand regardless of where we live.
You may have missed it the first time I pointed it out, but these aren't facsimiles of official documents we are talking about. They are the originals.
Would be putting his license where his keyboard is. How many attorneys have had their license taken away defending trump?
The president's signature isn't required for a pardon. You said look at the best evidence rule. The rule involves facsimiles of documents. It does not involve signature requirements.
And yet a facsimile signature is allowed on legal documents.
Probably why people are allowed to sign mortgage papers digitally.
But you are so patheticly partisan that you are running with this like a good trumper.
No one is more partisan than you. What’s worse is you’re a moron and weigh in on shit you know nothing about motivated by your stupid shill bs
You’re a fool
I don’t think the dancing orange orangutan’s signature is valid because we can’t tell what it says. Kind of like my doctor or mine in fact.
