That was totally apparent from the first time he posted one of those videos. I was so jealous he got to talk to Anthony
Leal has given up 10 points already
- Thread starter IUHoosiers80
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Tucker:
-Doesn't play defense (doesn't even try)
-Can't shoot outside 5 feet
-Can't dribble
-Can't pass
-Can't do much of anything really
Coaches fault. Next year will average 10 PPg and be a solid defender.
IU has plenty of talent, problem is, most of the talent doesn't give a shit. If Reneau and Mgbako played as hard as Goode, Leal, and Galloway. Nobody would be talking about lack of coaching.
He can jump though! And he was a burger boy!
I think you're both right though...Tucker has quite a lot more in his bag than he's shown, and a good coach would get more out of him. I just don't understand why anyone is allowing Hot Sauce to control the narrative on one of the guys we have that's showing they don't need real coaching to be effective.
And then...how much better would Leal himself be with a real coach? As our best perimeter defender, and an awful defensive scheme, he's literally on an island for most of his minutes. And for loooongg stretches of those minutes, he's locking down guys like Shelstead, and Braden Smith... What does he look like in a real defense that actually executes help and recover principles properly. And an offense that actually creates good, open looks for multiple perimeter players?
Leal is absolutely the least of this teams worries. Leal and Goode are the only two reasons this team is even close to making the tournament.
You realize it is because of coaching they aren’t playing “hard”. Do you really think Mack Malik rice K9 Tamar Curtis Kaleb etc all just don’t try and suck? COACHING
Woodson plays a role in that... I believe. Not all kids have that motor automatically. Coaches need to make that a fundamental expectation in their program. AND be able to teach kids how to do it properly. It can be a learned skill. I know from personal experience.
In part.
But, I would also factor in why the players are at IU. In other words, why did each player choose IU and what would he say he wants out of the experience to view it as a success?
Don’t confuse what you want to see with what a player wants to see. Those things can be different.
Kaleb Curtis and Tamar have all played way better after woody. I think all three would most likely play a ton of minutes for IU this year if they were playing the same way they are for their new schools.
I don't see Reneau as a player who isn't playing hard. He has been playing thru a knee issue with a brace. His mobility seems to certainly impacted especially defensively. He is talented in the paint offensively and most important to their success, IMO. You can see him lately getting more confident and aggressive.
The only talent I see from Mbako is his his shooting. When he is hot, lookout. So inconsistent. He brings nothing on D. Other than size for a college player, his athleticism doesn't seem close to the hype when he came in as a recruit. That said, I hope he stays.
The only talent I see from Mbako is his his shooting. When he is hot, lookout. So inconsistent. He brings nothing on D. Other than size for a college player, his athleticism doesn't seem close to the hype when he came in as a recruit. That said, I hope he stays.
I'm not sure what else Woodson can do? He curtailed his minutes to flat out benching him the last 7-8 games. If that as a player doesn't get through to you, that's on you.
That's accurate, but not complete.
What he can do is shoot the midrange shot and rebound, because he's athletic and fairly tough. He could have been effective for us as a role player if we had a coach that could maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. That's not Woodson.
He's ineffective because he takes mostly contested twos, and insists on shooting 3s, which he can't make. Eventually, under different coaching, he'll probably expand his range to include a decent % on 3s. But he would have to really work on it. We don't know his work habits, but my guess would be that they're not great.
As things presently stand he shouldn't shoot 3s other than in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock. A good coach would have told him to concentrate of playing D, rebounding, and shooting open 2s until his game expands. Not Woodson.
When I watched his HS scouting tapes I saw him routinely shooting contested 15 to 20 foot contested turn-around twos. Any decent coach would have got that crap out completely right away. But not Woodson. He's allowed Bako to shoot those contested turn around twos at about a 25% clip for two years. That's why I had little hope before the season for Tucker contributing this year.
So we really weren't getting anything with Tucker, because he probably wasn't interested in being coached. He just wants to do his own thing. That's probably why he's here in the first place.
Yes same Joe that shot 300 times his senior year and was 80% from the line. I can see how Leals 25 shots got you thinking that way.
Those are the reactionary things he did. What did he do from June through November to teach and demand him to play hard? Mack doesn't have that naturally wired in him. Some players do, some don't.
Woody's failure was to not pick that up in his recruiting evaluations on him. I'm guessing he never digs that deeply with anyone. And Mack was a late flip, so he probably barely knew anything about him, other than how talented he was.
And then his next failure was not effectively teaching him how to play hard all the time...what it looks and feels like... and then once that feeling is there with Mack, expecting it and demanding it all the time.
I was a guy my high school coaches yelled at for being lazy defensively. I was too valuable offensively to not play, so they always gave me the easiest defensive matchup. When I got to college, I realized pretty quickly there was no hiding defensively in our program. And our coach spent significant time, in preseason workouts, conditioning, then when practices started, teaching basic core tenets of our defense. Shell drills, closeout drills, body position and footwork exercises, all of it. By my sophomore year I was guarding opposing teams best perimeter players, and for most of my college career I was an all defensive team level defender.
If I had played for a coach similar to what I suspect Woodson is, I would have been similar to Mack. (obviously relative to the competition level).
Coaches can teach players how to play hard, and how to defend.
This isn't high school though. A top 20 burger boy shouldn't have to be told to play "hard". He's being held accountable for not playing hard.
Level doesn't always matter. Effort is effort. Focus is focus. The mental approach to basketball often is one of the separating factors between IU level D1 kids, and lower level college players. So with some kids, what you just said, holds more weight. Aaron Craft was a D1 level guard, in large part, because of his mental makeup and approach. As an example.
But there are a decent amount of kids, in every class, that are IU level recruits solely because of their size, athleticism and skill. How many "warnings" were there on this board about Demezi Anderson? He still got the IU offer, and other high major offers, because he's 6-6, fairly athletic, and can shoot. Mack is the same way. 6-8 and can shoot and score. That doesn't imply he "should" know how to play hard or know how to properly play defense.
Guys like Mgbako are skilled. Skills can be taught. Effort however requires little to no skill. Nor does toughness. A lot of people would excuse Mgbako going 2-10 from the field if he dove for balls on the ground or even attempted to move his feet and keep his man in front of him. If you have to teach a kid to give effort or display toughness, your recruiting is flawed to begin with.
I agree with all of this.
But effort and toughness can be, and often are, taught. And for some people, I would contend Mack is a great example, the end results of that would be more than worth the effort involved.
But for certain, if it isn't something you're putting in to your evaluations during recruiting, and I suspect Woodson isn't, you run the risk of having too many kids that need taught these things. Especially for a Coach that I suspect just assumes these kids come to college ready to contribute, and don't really have much of anything in place foundationally to ensure that assumption is correct. There aren't many incoming freshman in any class that are fully ready to battle and compete at the high major college level, without any sort of guidance or coaching.
I can see that he might have assumed that in year one, or was not prepared for how much teaching he'd have to actually do at this level. Matta and Fife were suppsed to help him with that but he apparently rejected that. But by year 4, with the same approach, he either is just not recognizing that he needs to do that, or he is himself not putting in the necessary effort. I haven't done it but I am sure it's a ton of work. I think the coaches who win are workaholics and Woodson just doesn't give off that vibe, at all.
I don't disagree with your last sentence, not being coached isn't ideal. But no coach is going to play a guy who doesn't give effort or plays with a chip on his shoulder. If Mgbako or Tucker thought they could come here and do nothing but shoot the ball 20 times a game and not have to do anything else, that's their fault. That wouldn't fly anywhere.
There's not a whole lot of freshman who come in and impact the scoring department in a big way. But that doesn't excuse one from not playing hard. Tucker has the length and athleticism to impact the game without scoring whether it be a tip out on an offensive rebound or jumping a passing lane and getting a deflection. Coaches love to see that stuff, especially from guys who aren't impacting the game on the scoreboard. Leal does this every possession, every night. That's why he plays over Tucker.
Agree on all of this. I worry that Woodson isn't actually teaching them how to do it, and then demanding it of them...before he's getting to the benching steps.
Maybe I'm weird, and an exception...but you can be taught what real effort, energy, focus, all of that look and feel like.
Example...defense often is what most people end up using as visual evidence a player is playing hard or not. Defending the ball with proper angles is something that very few high school level players fully understand. Most of them could just "stop their man" in high school. And in AAU, its just not as stressed or cared about, often times. So someone like Mack, defending a quicker player defensively...all he might be hearing is "you gotta compete! you gotta play hard!" So he takes that as he needs to get right up on his defender...that's what has always worked for him in the past. Well, one of the things Mack lacks physically, right now, is lateral quickness. So when he gets right up on ball handlers, more often than not, their first step is way too quick for him to effectively stop. So, he gives up straight line drives a lot. That looks like a lack of effort. And maybe it is. But if Woodson had taught him how to drop his lead leg further back, take deeper angles, pick realistic spots where he could cut his man off, even if that's 5-6 feet closer to the basket...and/or learning how to turn his hips and run next to a ball handler to cut them off 10-15 feet up the court, instead of just giving up and letting them past...
Just a small example of what detailed instruction can do for a guy like Mack, and how that can improve his "motor" and how people perceive his motor. Aaron Craft looked like he was the hardest working dude on the court...because he was the best college perimeter defender I've ever seen at changing angles, resetting stop points, turning and running with ball handlers, etc... I happen to know people inside the OSU program when he played, and the over the top gushing of how hard he worked, was a running joke. He just knew how to work smarter than everyone else. His dad taught him all that growing up. So when you combine those learned skills, then with what was also a good motor...it looked like he was a demented demon defensively.
Afraid those “breakdowns” are actually characteristic.
He is not a good one-on-one defender.
He’s good with help-outs, etc, makes some hustle plays, but can’t stay in front of many people.
He gets beaten, like everyone does, every now and then. He isn't being talked about, by people outside the program, as a potential all big ten defensive team player, because he can help and recover well. He's one of the better one on one defenders in the conference.
