JFK files tomorrow
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
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Read the conspiracy theory thread. For believers in outlandish conspiracy theories such as yourself, the absence of evidence is evidence. LOL!
I've done a fair bit of reading on the JFK assassination over the years.
One thing I know for certain: the Warren Commission was a travesty. They've been ripped to shreds over the years, including by 2 subsequent government investigations. And I think they deserved it. Even 3 of the commissioners (Sen. Cooper, Sen. Russell, and Rep. Boggs) cast doubts on its output...with Russell even going as far to say flat out that the assassination was a conspiracy.
I'm ambivalent about the prospect of others being involved. Maybe. There are a slew of things we either know for certain or can safely deduce that simply don't jibe with the view that LHO acted alone.
But just because the Warren Commission was so inept doesn't necessarily mean they reached the wrong conclusion.
One thing I know for certain: the Warren Commission was a travesty. They've been ripped to shreds over the years, including by 2 subsequent government investigations. And I think they deserved it. Even 3 of the commissioners (Sen. Cooper, Sen. Russell, and Rep. Boggs) cast doubts on its output...with Russell even going as far to say flat out that the assassination was a conspiracy.
I'm ambivalent about the prospect of others being involved. Maybe. There are a slew of things we either know for certain or can safely deduce that simply don't jibe with the view that LHO acted alone.
But just because the Warren Commission was so inept doesn't necessarily mean they reached the wrong conclusion.
I think it’s reasonable to think Oswald acted alone, but that he had some deep help making it happen. I doubt we’ll ever really know. No way a conspiracy involving the CIA, the mob, Cuba and LBJ could have ever been contained. If there had been something concocted by any grouping of these four we would have heard/learned about it decades ago.
I've read a couple and there was no conspiracy and LHO acted alone. This is the one I'm reading next:
Ironically, the next congress will probably be pouring over the Kennedy Center files. Heady times.
The Rest is History did a series on Kennedy's assassination last year. It was very good.
In the last episode, Sandbrook went over the theories and laid out two really important facts that I found persuasive.
One, Oswald was mentally ill, troubled as a child, and very erratic as an adult. The notion that the CIA or any other intelligence agency worth its salt would count on him to be the assassin is unlikely, to say the least. That's just not how those services operate.
Two, the very shot that everyone said was so difficult that it couldn't be done by a normal shooter with that rifle has been recreated using the same make of rifle.
As to your first point, most of the conspiracy theories don’t have Oswald as the assassin. They have him as the scapegoat. He was recruited because he was the way he was.
As to your second, as he wasn’t the assassin, they weren’t relying on him making that shot (assuming he was even the gunman on the 6th floor…many question that). In fact, virtually all of them have the fatal shot coming from somewhere in front of the limo.
That said, in the Marines, Oswald took the marksmanship test twice. First time, in 1956, he got a good score. Second time, in 1959, he got got a bare minimum score.
And, again, it wasn’t one shot. The WC put it at 3 - in roughly 5 seconds, based on Zapruder analyses.
Shot 1 they claim missed. And everybody agrees that one shot did miss, whether it was the 1st or 2nd shot fired. Shrapnel actually hit somebody.
Shot 2 hit POTUS in the upper back and continued on to go through Connally twice. This is very doubtful, for numerous reasons. Connally himself maintained to his death that he wasn’t hit by the first shot. And the Zapruder film casts doubt on this too. JFK is reacting for sometime before Connally is.
Moreover, this is the actual bullet the WC said went through human flesh and/or bones 3 times before lodging in Connally’s leg.
How could it still look like that?
And then there was the fatal headshot - which was either the 3rd or 4th shot fired (depending on who you believe).
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Lem Johns, SSA for Kennedy was on the detail in Dallas. He married my great Aunt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lem_JohnsAs to your first point, most of the conspiracy theories don’t have Oswald as the assassin. They have him as the scapegoat. He was recruited because he was the way he was.
As to your second, as he wasn’t the assassin, they weren’t relying on him making that shot (assuming he was even the gunman on the 6th floor…many question that). In fact, virtually all of them have the fatal shot coming from somewhere in front of the limo.
That said, in the Marines, Oswald took the marksmanship test twice. First time, in 1956, he got a good score. Second time, in 1959, he got got a bare minimum score.
And, again, it wasn’t one shot. The WC put it at 3 - in roughly 5 seconds, based on Zapruder analyses.
Shot 1 they claim missed. And everybody agrees that one shot did miss, whether it was the 1st or 2nd shot fired. Shrapnel actually hit somebody.
Shot 2 hit POTUS in the upper back and continued on to go through Connally twice. This is very doubtful, for numerous reasons. Connally himself maintained to his death that he wasn’t hit by the first shot. And the Zapruder film casts doubt on this too. JFK is reacting for sometime before Connally is.
Moreover, this is the actual bullet the WC said went through human flesh and/or bones 3 times before lodging in Connally’s leg.
How could it still look like that?
And then there was the fatal headshot - which was either the 3rd or 4th shot fired (depending on who you believe).
My dad talked to him a lot and maybe 10 years ago, Lem said "I am pretty sure there was a second gunman". But that isn't what his sworn statement said in 1963. Lem also told my dad that there was concern that maybe a secret service agent had fired his gun and struck Kennedy by accident.
The problem with the conspiracy theorists, to reach the second gunman conclusion, you have to make soooo many assumptions: (1) Oswald wasn't the shooter; (2) Oswald wasn't in the book repository --or at least on the 6th floor; (3) Oswald couldn't have fired 3 bullets because he couldn't have made the shot, etc, etc.
Oswald was insane and complete unreliable--even his wife said so (although she has since meandered all over the board on this issue). The KGB didn't want him (Note--the soviets were scared to death that the United States would launch a nuclear strike following the Kennedy's assassination that they launched a full scale investigation into the event. These files were released following the fall of the Soviet Union. You can find them online someplace. Oswald did run from the police and he killed officer JD Tippet. A lot of noise there if you didn't do the shooting or weren't in the book repository.
The Warren Commission was a bit of a joke. Anything will Allen Dulles involved we should be highly skeptical of. Not just because Dulles and Kennedy hated each other (they did), but because Dulles was the proverbial dirtiest player in the game domestically and overseas. The House Select Committee on the assassination dug down pretty good.
The one point that has always bothered me was the involvement of Jack Ruby and his murder of Oswald. It literally makes no sense. Ruby was not some altruistic guy at all yet he claimed he was doing it so Jackie O didn't have to go through more pain. I don't buy that at all. Maybe there is something there.
Regardless, there will be nothing of real significance that will be released, the players are all dead and with them any secrets that may have existed.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing!
He's not the only one who thought this. Gov. Connally and his wife both went to the grave insisting this. So did 3 members of the Warren Commission.
Not necessarily. Obviously, a "second gunman" means there was a first one. A number of the theories have Oswald as him. Some others do posit that, while he was in the building (a Dallas cop confronted him on the 2nd floor within a couple minutes of the shooting), he wasn't on the 6th floor.
Agreed. But, again, the most common CT belief is that Oswald was involved -- and that the anti-Castro thing was a deliberate cover. The whole (alleged) idea was to make it look like it was the communists. Yet, WC witness Silvia Odio testified that Oswald and two other men approached her a couple months before the assassination to solicit donations for an anti-Castro organization.
Kennedy and Dulles not only hated each other, Kennedy fired Dulles for the Bay of Pigs fiasco. And while I'm sure there was personal animus between them around that, their division likely went deeper than that...as Dulles was a hawk on anti-communism and Kennedy was seen as wanting to thaw the ice with the Soviets.
Moreover, Dulles deputized the mafia (John Roselli) to take Castro out in Cuba -- as they both had a common interest in that happening.
You have to wonder: why did LBJ put Dulles, of all people, on the WC?
I agree. And we know that Ruby had all sorts of connections with the mob. There's also testimony that Ruby and Oswald knew each other, that Ruby was spotted at Parkland Hospital after the shooting, etc.
And, speaking of the mafia, both Roselli and Sam Giancana were murdered in the mid-70s prior to testifying to Congress.
I agree. But I do have to say that my curiosity was piqued when Trump was (reportedly) convinced by Mike Pompeo to hold the remaining documents back -- and that Trump told more than one person that, if they saw what was in those documents, they'd understand why he yielded to Pompeo's overture.
There was a major disconnect between what the CIA wanted the cuban army to do and how they could be persuaded to do it. This defect distorted the Agency's advice to Kennedy. It was a complete disaster. Nixon talks about this--he was in DC on the day of the invasion and Dulles called up Nixon to ask for advice. According to Nixon, he told Dulles "well you better tell him you botched this". Richard Bissell was a big failure here, and pretty much the fulcrum for a bed shitting event.
Dulles wielded immense power even fired. It would not surprise me if he want to LBJ and said "you need to put me on the commission." One theory is that Dulles claimed that the FBI and CIA would lie if interviewed by anyone other than him. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP88-01350R000200760012-8.pdf. The skeptical view is that Dulles demanded to be on so that he could steer the commission to a particular opinion (or away from certain unseemly evidence). Not sure. Dulles talked about his thoughts post Warren Commission. Do I believe him? His track records ain't good for veracity https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP70-00058R000300010003-4.pdf
As to your point: "I do have to say that my curiosity was piqued when Trump was (reportedly) convinced by Mike Pompeo to hold the remaining documents back -- and that Trump told more than one person that, if they saw what was in those documents, they'd understand why he yielded to Pompeo's overture" (sorry, I have no idea how to do multi quotes), I'm more in the camp of that being trumpian exaggeration. Assuming he actually said that of course.
I read the Jim Marrs book years ago--it was okay, but scattered. Posner's book was the best book on the subject for me. Nevertheless, I have an open mind if something fresh pops up.
I hate this kind of stuff. Just release them if that is what you are doing. We don't need a flipping carnival barker for everything that gets done. You aren't getting clicks in these positions.
Before Pam Bohndi released the Epstein files she said "you won't believe what is in there. It is sick". Those "new files" read like a phone book--largely because it was. Curious how she could arrive at such a conclusion if she had read them.
Regardless, I would bet that everything in the JFK files that is being released is info we have seen 100 times or is irrelevant.
Whatever is in the files will not match the hype or justify all this anticipation in certain circles.
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As to your first point, that doesn't make sense. You can't count on an unreliable person to do anything, including showing up to the Book Depository or keeping his mouth shut or bringing the right rifle, etc.As to your first point, most of the conspiracy theories don’t have Oswald as the assassin. They have him as the scapegoat. He was recruited because he was the way he was.
As to your second, as he wasn’t the assassin, they weren’t relying on him making that shot (assuming he was even the gunman on the 6th floor…many question that). In fact, virtually all of them have the fatal shot coming from somewhere in front of the limo.
That said, in the Marines, Oswald took the marksmanship test twice. First time, in 1956, he got a good score. Second time, in 1959, he got got a bare minimum score.
And, again, it wasn’t one shot. The WC put it at 3 - in roughly 5 seconds, based on Zapruder analyses.
Shot 1 they claim missed. And everybody agrees that one shot did miss, whether it was the 1st or 2nd shot fired. Shrapnel actually hit somebody.
Shot 2 hit POTUS in the upper back and continued on to go through Connally twice. This is very doubtful, for numerous reasons. Connally himself maintained to his death that he wasn’t hit by the first shot. And the Zapruder film casts doubt on this too. JFK is reacting for sometime before Connally is.
Moreover, this is the actual bullet the WC said went through human flesh and/or bones 3 times before lodging in Connally’s leg.
How could it still look like that?
And then there was the fatal headshot - which was either the 3rd or 4th shot fired (depending on who you believe).
As to your second, they've recreated the number of shots in the time period allotted and tracked the bullet trajectories. It all works out and is consistent with the wounds.
Assuming he acted alone, did he not do these 3 things?
So you buy that the pristine bullet pictured above “traversed a back brace, 15 layers of clothing, seven layers of skin, and approximately 15 inches of muscle tissue, and pulverized 4 inches of Connally's rib, and shattered his radius bone” without any defect to its shape?
Hard for me to buy.
Your first point/question is irrelevant. Yes, he did do those things. That's not the issue. Hinkley tried to assassinate Reagan--you think an intelligence agency would have counted on him to do it?
I don't know anything about the bullet argument. What is the best counterargument to yours on the bullet?
I’ve read it. And it’s an excellent book.
However, needless to say, I think there are some things where his adversaries make a better case -- and the bullet (CE 399) is one of them.
As I recall, Posner quoted a couple subject matter experts who argue that they wouldn't expect to see deformation (other than the slight longitudinal flattening) in a bullet that penetrated everything this one would've had to -- given the determination that it was tumbling as it progressed and made at least one or two entry wounds backwards.
The other side also has consulted SMEs on it who disagree -- given the bones that were shattered. And I find their argument more persuasive.
And it's always stuck with me, as well, that Connally always maintained that the shot that hit him and the shot that hit JFK's back were two different shots. Watch this interview clip, it's short.
So, for Connally, 3 shots....1st shot hits JFK, second shot hits him, third shot got JFK's head.
Problem here? An onlooker was hit by shrapnel from a bullet that hit and damaged the road.
Why is it irrelevant? Doesn't his procurement of the rifle, his ability to bring it into the TSBD undetected, his aim and history as a Marine marksman, his ability to get away from the building, etc....demonstrate that he wasn't as incompetent as you are surmising?
And keep in mind, the allegation is not that they were conscripting him to be the assassin, but to be the fall guy. They were (allegedly) counting on somebody else to actually do the job.
I referenced my recollection of Posner's argument in the above post -- basically that he quoted a couple SMEs who said they wouldn't expect it to be terribly deformed from all of the things it would've had to penetrate (including bone, twice)....and that there was some deformation on it, albeit minor.
FTR, this critical bullet wasn't found in the limo or in Gov. Connally's thigh. It was found on a gurney by an employee at Parkland Hospital (WC determined that it was the gurney used to transport Connally), given to his boss, who then passed it to a federal agent.
A very recent (basically deathbed) claim from SS agent Paul Landis is that he claims to have found this bullet lodged into the seat behind (?) where POTUS was sitting....he grabbed it, carried it with him to the hospital and placed it on Kennedy's gurney, not Connally's. And the hospital employee who found it had maintained that he didn't remember which of the two gurneys he found it on.
A very recent (basically deathbed) claim from SS agent Paul Landis is that he claims to have found this bullet lodged into the seat behind (?) where POTUS was sitting....he grabbed it, carried it with him to the hospital and placed it on Kennedy's gurney, not Connally's. And the hospital employee who found it had maintained that he didn't remember which of the two gurneys he found it on.
I just finished the second chapter so haven't gotten to that part yet. His case that LHO killed JFK, and did it alone and there was no conspiracy is looking very strong so far.
It's irrelevant because when you plan for the future, it is based on probabilities. You are using hind site to say he did these things.
I think we need to discuss increasing your Xanax in the am
The Echevarria reference and the memo was part of the Warren Commission report.......so it had been around for years and years.
The Underhill memo was made public in the 1960s, was put in a magazine and Jim Garrison had it and talked to Playboy about it. Underhill committed suicide (holding breath while I wait the next conspiracy offering on his "suicide")
The purported JFK Jr. Memo has been around for years with the designation "UNSUB (unknown subject aka John F. Kennedy, jr". The FBI investigated it, pulled fingerprints, and what do you know, it wasn't JFK jr.....https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-jun-20-mn-42953-story.html
There is literally NOTHING new is this wasteful production of documents.
I'm reading Posner's book. That lady is an absolute nut.
As expected, nothing new, but the conspiracy theorists are going to grasp on to some innocuous piece of information and blast it out on Twitter with their ridiculous twist on them and the usual suspects will lap it up with a spoon. Also, the fact that there is no new evidence of a conspiracy IS evidence of a conspiracy to these paranoid people.
Posner was just on Smerconish addressing the conspiracy theories around the assassination. He straightforwardly laid out the evidence that proves that LHO was the lone shooter and there was no conspiracy involving the CIA, FBI or even the mafia. His book is excellent. He lays out all the evidence methodically. The footnotes are a must read to, he directly addresses the conspiracy theories there too and eviscerates each of them.
Now the dedicated believers in the various conspiracy theories are calling in. The one on now is repeating the debunked claim that LHO wasn't able to make the shots. This has been duplicated several times by shooters with the same rifle rating that LHO had (Expert and Marksman - he had both scores during his Marine Corps time). This same nut on now is claiming LBJ was directly involved and ordered the assassination! These guys amaze me. Essentially the lack of evidence in the files released previously and those just released IS evidence in support of the various theories. This logical fallacy is fascinating.
Now the dedicated believers in the various conspiracy theories are calling in. The one on now is repeating the debunked claim that LHO wasn't able to make the shots. This has been duplicated several times by shooters with the same rifle rating that LHO had (Expert and Marksman - he had both scores during his Marine Corps time). This same nut on now is claiming LBJ was directly involved and ordered the assassination! These guys amaze me. Essentially the lack of evidence in the files released previously and those just released IS evidence in support of the various theories. This logical fallacy is fascinating.
I didn't hear the whole thing, and I gathered from the conversation that was one of the first things he covered. It's in his book, but I haven't gotten to that yet. I don't want to jump ahead because each chapter sort of builds up to the big conspiracy theories.
other people have. I watched some on that and the single bullet theory. It is all very interesting. Comparing everything side by side I am closer to the LHO finding than I am anything else. Until we get the memo that George Wallace killed Kennedy
And here I thought you and I were bonding and engaging in some rough foreplay......
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