IU has commitments from 2 4* guards in 2020..

[IndyResident16]

Firing Crean after three years is tough but right when he's just come off his third last place finish (I think he was second to last his second year to be technical) and you have a 30 some year coach whoes favorite team growing up was IU and just took Horizon league Butler to back to back title games.

You make that move.

In Archie's case...this isn't year three of last place finishes (we missed the tournament by 1 game) and there is no Brad Stevens out there other than Beard, who is a Texas fan, not IU.

Why does everyone assume Brad Stevens goes to IU then? You fire Crean and don't get Brad Stevens who then are you going to get? Firing a coach 3 years into a rebuild in an instance where he inherited a single walk-on from the year prior sends a HORRIBLE message to any potential suitor. You don't think if IU thought they even had the slightest of chances getting Stevens they would have looked to made a move? I don't get all the Brad Stevens talk other than he grew up an IU fan. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have Brad Stevens coach IU as much as the next guy, but I have never gotten the sense that the IU job has been Brad Stevens so long as he wants it.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Firing Crean after three years is tough but right when he's just come off his third last place finish

That's one situation where I think more time was warranted. Crean was almost literally handed an empty cupboard. What did the roster have...two walk-ons? Guys either transferred or were dismissed. Virtually everybody we'd been recruiting ended up elsewhere. He had to overcome recruiting sanctions that he also inherited.

Very few coaches and programs have ever had to do that kind of rebuild. About the only thing comparable that I'm familiar with (not saying it's the only one) is Evansville after losing the entire team to a plane crash -- but at least their new coach didn't have to navigate through recruiting sanctions.

As I recall, Crean asked for and received an extension before he even coached the first game. I don't recall much being said about the impetus behind that unusual move. But I'd be willing to bet that matters turned out worse than he expected and he made it clear that he needed a longer contract if he was going to take it on.

As such, I'm sure firing Crean after 3 years would've been prohibitively expensive. It also would've been unfair given the scale and scope of the rebuild.

 

[Al Bino]

I can’t believe the program is up in flames and we’re here bragging about 2 recruits not even in the top 100. We can’t even make the tournament and we’re recruiting like a mid major but we have cult members on here beating their chests. What a joke.

Then please leave this forum.

TIA

 

[TommyCracker]

Why does everyone assume Brad Stevens goes to IU then? You fire Crean and don't get Brad Stevens who then are you going to get? Firing a coach 3 years into a rebuild in an instance where he inherited a single walk-on from the year prior sends a HORRIBLE message to any potential suitor. You don't think if IU thought they even had the slightest of chances getting Stevens they would have looked to made a move? I don't get all the Brad Stevens talk other than he grew up an IU fan. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have Brad Stevens coach IU as much as the next guy, but I have never gotten the sense that the IU job has been Brad Stevens so long as he wants it.

Again, I hated Crean when he was at Marquette so if I was the AD I would have let him go just for that. Lol

I would obviously put in some serious back channel feelers on Brad. Maybe we did that, maybe we didn't. I can only go by what the message boards were saying and the gist when I was pushing it was....

1. I was being too mean and ruthless
2.Brad Stevens is still unproven at a Big Boy school.
3. We have the movement coming!

If Stevens said no in back channels, I still probably fire Crean (again, I personally hated him as our coach) and go after a bunch of dudes knowing I had Pearl (who I love as a coach but obviously isn't a fit for IU, but we'd win big) and Wittman/Alford in my back pocket. All three would be improvements to Crean.

Again, I'm not rational when it comes to Crean as a steward of the program.

 

[Al Bino]

Even Mike Davis himself publicly questioned if he was the right guy for IU job. He knew he was in over his head. How is it that the IU brass didn’t???

Are you not of the opinion that outside forces played a part, maybe even a big part in Davis getting the HC position?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Are you not of the opinion that outside forces played a part, maybe even a big part in Davis getting the HC position?

Well, I don't really know what you mean by "outside forces." I do remember Kent Benson taking the mic at AH and publicly lobbying for Davis. Is Benny considered an "outside force"? I also remember some players threatening to leave if Davis wasn't hired -- which is precisely the sort of hostage-taking pressure that strong leaders will simply overlook and overcome.

Whatever forces may have existed, it's ultimately a decision that rests with a very small number of people. And, in that case, the people charged with doing that at IU screwed up.

Again, I'd defy anybody to name one major program in the country that would've hired Mike Davis at that point in his career. If I recall, his college experience at that time consisted of a couple years as a junior level assistant at Alabama and then two or three more under RMK. Other than that, he was an assistant in the CBA.

It amazes me there are still people who think IU made the right decision hiring him. It wasn't the first bad decision in their series of superstupids. But it was easily the one that made the least sense.

 

[IndyResident16]

Again, I hated Crean when he was at Marquette so if I was the AD I would have let him go just for that. Lol

I would obviously put in some serious back channel feelers on Brad. Maybe we did that, maybe we didn't. I can only go by what the message boards were saying and the gist when I was pushing it was....

1. I was being too mean and ruthless
2.Brad Stevens is still unproven at a Big Boy school.
3. We have the movement coming!

If Stevens said no in back channels, I still probably fire Crean (again, I personally hated him as our coach) and go after a bunch of dudes knowing I had Pearl (who I love as a coach but obviously isn't a fit for IU, but we'd win big) and Wittman/Alford in my back pocket. All three would be improvements to Crean.

Again, I'm not rational when it comes to Crean as a steward of the program.

At least you admit all of that lol. I was never fond of Crean as a coach but still respected him and the job he took on.

My whole spiel with Stevens is this. He's wasn't an idiot. He knew IU was in complete disarray and the majority of the fanbase wanted him if IU was to go a different route. Had he any desire to take the IU job, him or his agent could have very easily picked up the phone and made a call to Glass. Brad Stevens wasn't the kind of coach who was going to handcuff IU for money and even after back to back national championship appearances, he was what making a million dollars a year, maybe? He knew IU was going to pay (because they always do) and he was going to make 3-4x what he was making a Butler.

I don't think he had any desire to coach at IU at that time, and I don't blame him. It's not like Stevens was begging for the job and IU told him they had their guy, at least I don't believe to be that way. That's why I think if there was even a chance Stevens was interested IU makes a move, but I truly don't believe there was. Could be wrong, but IU wasn't going to fire Crean 3 years in and pray that Brad Stevens would come.

 

[IndyResident16]

Well, I don't really know what you mean by "outside forces." I do remember Kent Benson taking the mic at AH and publicly lobbying for Davis. Is Benny considered an "outside force"? I also remember some players threatening to leave if Davis wasn't hired -- which is precisely the sort of hostage-taking pressure that strong leaders will simply overlook and overcome.

Whatever forces may have existed, it's ultimately a decision that rests with a very small number of people. And, in that case, the people charged with doing that at IU screwed up.

Again, I'd defy anybody to name one major program in the country that would've hired Mike Davis at that point in his career. If I recall, his college experience at that time consisted of a couple years as a junior level assistant at Alabama and then two or three more under RMK. Other than that, he was an assistant in the CBA.

It amazes me there are still people who think IU made the right decision hiring him. It wasn't the first bad decision in their series of superstupids. But it was easily the one that made the least sense.

You're still missing the fact that Davis had a full year to audition. Had IU come out and made him head coach right after Knight's firing, then yes you're right. But they did their due diligence and Davis earned the job. And not only did he earn the job, he followed it up with a trip to the national title. And furthermore he had universal support from not only the players for a lot of former players. I'm going to take the word of what guys like Benson, May, etc have to say over some fan. Yeah it didn't work out in the long run, but I disagree with you at the time that Davis didn't earn the job.

 

[jsig]

According to cryinho, it's all about the TO's baby!

Whether you agree with his take or not, at least he has pointed out some of what he believes are Archie deficiencies as opposed to the yada yada yada we lost 12 or 13 so fire the coach stuff.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You're still missing the fact that Davis had a full year to audition. Had IU come out and made him head coach right after Knight's firing, then yes you're right. But they did their due diligence and Davis earned the job. And not only did he earn the job, he followed it up with a trip to the national title. And further more he had universal support from not only the players for a lot of former players. I'm going to take the word of what guys like Benson, May, etc have to say over some fan. Yeah it didn't work out in the long run, but I disagree with you at the time that Davis didn't earn the job.

What makes you think I'm missing that? I'm well aware he had an interim year. I'm also well aware that he had the support of some (then) current and former players -- not one of whom ever held the actual responsibility to make that kind of weighty decision.

There were a lot of emotions surrounding the program in the wake of Knight's firing -- and emotions and important decisions don't mix. Personally, I think people were stunned by the sudden need for an unexpected change after 29 years and just grasping for anything to hold the program together. And the leadership under Brand/Herbert and Doninger/Clapacs was stunningly weak.

A program like Indiana hiring Mike Davis to be its head coach is akin to a multi-millionaire hiring a kid fresh out of college in a strip mall Scottrade branch to be his financial adviser. He may be a great kid -- and he might even have a great future managing money. But nobody with that kind of money would, or should, be trusting him with that kind of responsibility.

 

[IndyResident16]

What makes you think I'm missing that? I'm well aware he had an interim year. I'm also well aware that he had the support of some (then) current and former players -- not one of whom ever held the actual responsibility to make that kind of weighty decision.

There were a lot of emotions surrounding the program in the wake of Knight's firing -- and emotions and important decisions don't mix. Personally, I think people were stunned by the sudden need for an unexpected change after 29 years and just grasping for anything to hold the program together. And the leadership under Brand/Herbert and Doninger/Clapacs was stunningly weak.

A program like Indiana hiring Mike Davis to be its head coach is akin to a multi-millionaire hiring a kid fresh out of college in a strip mall Scottrade branch to be his financial adviser. He may be a great kid -- and he might even have a great future managing money. But nobody with that kind of money would, or should, be trusting him with that kind of responsibility.

Then my question for you, where should IU have turned? You had a guy who FAR exceeded expectations in his interim year and had majority support from just about everyone. You cite weak leadership at the time, you convinced they would have made the right hire anyways?

We have nearly 15 years of hindsight to now conclude it wasn't the right decision, but that decision is not why IU is where they are today. That falls on the decision to hire Kelvin Sampson. The 2002 national title appearance is the one of the main reasons why IU's head is still afloat today. And even that is becoming a distant memory.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Then my question for you, where should IU have turned? You had a guy who FAR exceeded expectations in his interim year and had majority support from just about everyone. You cite weak leadership at the time, you convinced they would have made the right hire anyways?

We have nearly 15 years of hindsight to now conclude it wasn't the right decision, but that decision is not why IU is where they are today. That falls on the decision to hire Kelvin Sampson. The 2002 national title appearance is the one of the main reasons why IU's head is still afloat today. And even that is becoming a distant memory.

No, I’m not at all convinced they’d have made a great (or even good) hire had they hired somebody else. But I will say that virtually any other hire they’d have made would’ve been more sensible and justifiable.

They should’ve gone through a formal search process. Davis could’ve applied along with everybody else. Who knows...maybe they wouldn’t have found many qualified, interested applicants who wanted to follow Knight in that circumstance. But unless they make they effort, how would they know?

 

[Bippy]

Added some role players now Archie needs to hit some Home runs

Well put

 

[rocketo]

Both Kentucky (Gillispie) and North Carolina (Doherty) have fired coaches after short periods of time. And that is because their PTBs insisted on a certain standard of excellence and they simply wouldn't tolerate anything short of that. In Doherty's case, he was even one of their own. No matter -- he clearly wasn't cutting the mustard and they weren't going to sit there and wait it out.

That said, our situation isn't like theirs. Our downward trajectory began decades ago and has been allowed to fester. Some say it was the day RMK was fired. I'd actually put it earlier than that. But, either way, there's no question that where we are today is the product of many bad decisions made over a long period of time.

Do I think we can get back where we want to be, on a consistent basis, in a short period of time? Maybe not. But Tom Crean got 9 years. I forget how many Davis had -- but he should never have been hired as anything but an interim. And now here we are basically saying that merely making the tournament is a sufficient bar for carrying forward with Archie.

Personally, I think we should be more demanding than that.

But we've been stuck in "it's going to take time...we just need more time" mode for a long, long time. Surely you realize that, right?

Archie has a completely different style when compared to Crean. The players in place upon Archie’s arrival lacked the skills required to be effective and had to change. Add to this that Archie had to take what he could his first class, and has to establish a completely different culture. Surely you can see that this will take time.

Positive momentum must be built in this case. The program was stagnant when CAM took over...

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

That guy is an imposter

And stupid too. He named himself after the forum’s least intelligent anti-IU troll.

 

[bsmitty08]

-More experienced team
-More depth
-better roster balance
-another year to get acclimated to each other and Archie's system

With less talent though

 

[IndyResident16]

With less talent though

Right. When IU has a better year this year despite not being as talented as last year, remember this post.

Amazing that needed an explanation

 

[bsmitty08]

Right. When IU has a better year this year despite not being as talented as last year, remember this post.

Amazing that needed an explanation

Well let’s hope you are correct. You speak as fact when you are nothing but opinions

 

[Al Bino]

You speak as fact when you are nothing but opinions

Opinions just as your "factual" statements are.

Pot meet kettle.

 

[IndyResident16]

Well let’s hope you are correct. You speak as fact when you are nothing but opinions

You asked how this team was on the rise? I gave my opinion. Last years team lacked

A) Depth—8-9 man rotation with many guys not ready to contribute
B) Experience-started 2 freshman, 2 sophomores and a senior with many guys playing with each other for the first time in only the second year of a new system
C) Roster balance—rail thin front court that started guys at 6’8 and 6’6

Every one of those areas that hurt IU has been addressed and/or improved with a passing year.

 

[jimmygoiu]

Then my question for you, where should IU have turned? You had a guy who FAR exceeded expectations in his interim year and had majority support from just about everyone. You cite weak leadership at the time, you convinced they would have made the right hire anyways?

We have nearly 15 years of hindsight to now conclude it wasn't the right decision, but that decision is not why IU is where they are today. That falls on the decision to hire Kelvin Sampson. The 2002 national title appearance is the one of the main reasons why IU's head is still afloat today. And even that is becoming a distant memory.

Wisconsin had an interim coach the very same year. Wisconsin did their due diligence at the end of the year and hired Bo Ryan. Wisconsin has OWNED IU ever since.

IU gave in to media and minority pressures and hired a coach on a permanent basis with virtually no experience at any level. IU was a college blue blood at the time, and would have had many huge upgrades willing to come and be the head coach at Indiana University. Fife was going to be a senior and Jeffries was going to focus on getting to the NBA after his soph season-they were not going anywhere. IU administration tried to minimize the national attention and attraction of its basketball program, and they have succeeded.

 

[IndyResident16]

Wisconsin had an interim coach the very same year. Wisconsin did their due diligence at the end of the year and hired Bo Ryan. Wisconsin has OWNED IU ever since.

IU gave in to media and minority pressures and hired a coach on a permanent basis with virtually no experience at any level. IU was a college blue blood at the time, and would have had many huge upgrades willing to come and be the head coach at Indiana University. Fife was going to be a senior and Jeffries was going to focus on getting to the NBA after his soph season-they were not going anywhere. IU administration tried to minimize the national attention and attraction of its basketball program, and they have succeeded.

You would have absolutely lost your mind if Indiana hired a D3 coach. Jeffries likely isn’t at IU in the first place if it wasn’t for Davis. He almost didn’t play as a freshman if Davis wasn’t named interim and it wouldn’t have been a shock if he left after his freshman year had an entire new staff been brought in.

 

[IUPaterade724]

Then please leave this forum.

TIA

The only cultish thing on this board is foopah repeating the same paranoid mantra over and over. Take your medicine.

 

[IUPaterade724]

Well, I don't really know what you mean by "outside forces." I do remember Kent Benson taking the mic at AH and publicly lobbying for Davis. Is Benny considered an "outside force"? I also remember some players threatening to leave if Davis wasn't hired -- which is precisely the sort of hostage-taking pressure that strong leaders will simply overlook and overcome.

Whatever forces may have existed, it's ultimately a decision that rests with a very small number of people. And, in that case, the people charged with doing that at IU screwed up.

Again, I'd defy anybody to name one major program in the country that would've hired Mike Davis at that point in his career. If I recall, his college experience at that time consisted of a couple years as a junior level assistant at Alabama and then two or three more under RMK. Other than that, he was an assistant in the CBA.

It amazes me there are still people who think IU made the right decision hiring him. It wasn't the first bad decision in their series of superstupids. But it was easily the one that made the least sense.

If had to guess it was the athletic coaches diversity rating that no one is pointing out.

I could be wrong that it wasn't implemented until Herbie

 

[bsmitty08]

You asked how this team was on the rise? I gave my opinion. Last years team lacked

A) Depth—8-9 man rotation with many guys not ready to contribute
B) Experience-started 2 freshman, 2 sophomores and a senior with many guys playing with each other for the first time in only the second year of a new system
C) Roster balance—rail thin front court that started guys at 6’8 and 6’6

Every one of those areas that hurt IU has been addressed and/or improved with a passing year.

This years team will have zero guard depth unless Franklin is an early contributor.
Hunter is the wildcard in my opinion. If he is up to speed he will help. Frontcourt will be solid but need some scoring from it.

 

[Cavanagh.6]

This years team will have zero guard depth unless Franklin is an early contributor.
Hunter is the wildcard in my opinion. If he is up to speed he will help. Frontcourt will be solid but need some scoring from it.

If Deron gets hurt we go from a solid front court to the worst in the B1G. You got a gun to my head I say Deron misses more games then he plays this season.

 

[IndyResident16]

If Deron gets hurt we go from a solid front court to the worst in the B1G. You got a gun to my head I say Deron misses more games then he plays this season.

I'd take that bet. De'Ron was rushed back from an achiles injury in less than a year. He shouldn't have been playing until conference season but had to out of necessity. He wasn't in game shape and that lead to stress on his leg. IU effectively shut him down for about 2 weeks midway through the season and he came back and was able to play about 20 minutes a game. Another offseason to fully recover and I think De'Ron should be goof for 20-25 mpg. Obviously freak injuries can happen but I wouldn't bet on another one.

 

[ReadHall84]

Archie is getting it done, and the haters are really pissed about that

I'd LOVE for him to get it done, but getting it "done" happens on the court. Hopefully soon!

 

[ufo33]

If Deron gets hurt we go from a solid front court to the worst in the B1G. You got a gun to my head I say Deron misses more games then he plays this season.

I think DeRon's minutes will be limited per game so that he can finish the season on the floor, and not sitting on the sidelines in the grey injury warmup on the injured reserve list. I expect all 4 big men on the roster to play significant minutes at the 4 and 5 positions, DeRon,TJD, Joey Brunk, Race Thompson.

 

[Cavanagh.6]

I think DeRon's minutes will be limited per game so that he can finish the season on the floor, and not sitting on the sidelines in the grey injury warmup on the injured reserve list. I expect all 4 big men on the roster to play significant minutes at the 4 and 5 positions, DeRon,TJD, Joey Brunk, Race Thompson.

If Deron is healthy 80-90% of the year we will be a top 5 team in the B1G and in the tourney easy. I just have serious reservations that he will stay healthy.

 

[h20pls]

A team needs "guys who can play". After that, a team has to execute in a good system, play hard all the time, play tough defense, practice well, hit good shots, knock down free throws, and make good decisions, particularly in close games. They also need size, strength, speed, awareness, and ball handling.

With all that in mind, these 2 guys are good enough to win with.

Agreed. And then there are the intangibles...leadership, team unity (LEO, if you will), character, mission, purpose...all those things that make something good...great....

 

[jimmygoiu]

You would have absolutely lost your mind if Indiana hired a D3 coach. Jeffries likely isn’t at IU in the first place if it wasn’t for Davis. He almost didn’t play as a freshman if Davis wasn’t named interim and it wouldn’t have been a shock if he left after his freshman year had an entire new staff been brought in.

IU would have had their choice of MANY highly regarded mid and major level coaches . Davis should have been interim, announced at the time he was made the interim head coach. If Jeffries left, so be it. Were you one of those posters afraid that IU would have transfers, and were held hostage by that "fear"? The right coach would have kept Jeffries, and if not, good luck to you JJ.

 

[ufo33]

If Deron is healthy 80-90% of the year we will be a top 5 team in the B1G and in the tourney easy. I just have serious reservations that he will stay healthy.

3 of the 4 post players, TJD, Joey Brunk, Race were either not on the team or not healthy enough to play last season, and DeRon had his season cut short by injuries. So that is the biggest improvement personnel wise from last season to this season. Post depth.

 

[IndyResident16]

IU would have had their choice of MANY highly regarded mid and major level coaches . Davis should have been interim, announced at the time he was made the interim head coach. If Jeffries left, so be it. Were you one of those posters afraid that IU would have transfers, and were held hostage by that "fear"? The right coach would have kept Jeffries, and if not, good luck to you JJ.

I'm not sure I agree with that, not with the way Knight was let go. Following a legend such as Knight was no easy task. It's fading on me because it's been almost 20 years but I seem to recall a lot of interest in either Steve Alford and Rick Pitino after it was a foregone conclusion he was done in Boston. Gladly would have taken either of those at the time, but given hindsight would IU have really been any worse off today? Results would have been there with Pitino but look how he disgraced Louisville's image and Alford is wildly underachieving. How long do you think the admin would have been willing to hang off to one of the best players to ever come out of there?

You won't change my opinion just like I won't change yours, but Mike Davis earned the job his interim year. He took IU to a national title and was given a short leash. I will never argue against IU's decision to retain Davis. He earned it.

 

[IUPaterade724]

That's one situation where I think more time was warranted. Crean was almost literally handed an empty cupboard. What did the roster have...two walk-ons? Guys either transferred or were dismissed. Virtually everybody we'd been recruiting ended up elsewhere. He had to overcome recruiting sanctions that he also inherited.

Very few coaches and programs have ever had to do that kind of rebuild. About the only thing comparable that I'm familiar with (not saying it's the only one) is Evansville after losing the entire team to a plane crash -- but at least their new coach didn't have to navigate through recruiting sanctions.

As I recall, Crean asked for and received an extension before he even coached the first game. I don't recall much being said about the impetus behind that unusual move. But I'd be willing to bet that matters turned out worse than he expected and he made it clear that he needed a longer contract if he was going to take it on.

As such, I'm sure firing Crean after 3 years would've been prohibitively expensive. It also would've been unfair given the scale and scope of the rebuild.

And people want Archie fired after 2 for having to recreate a culture that didn't exist the past 9 years. IU fans are a certain kind of SPECIAL.

 

[fpeaugh]

And people want Archie fired after 2 for having to recreate a culture that didn't exist the past 9 years. IU fans are a certain kind of SPECIAL.

IU probably has the most patient fans in the country. No other blue blood fan base would be this patient after the last 20 years we’ve been through. Imagine UK in our scenario.

 

[fpeaugh]

3 of the 4 post players, TJD, Joey Brunk, Race were either not on the team or not healthy enough to play last season, and DeRon had his season cut short by injuries. So that is the biggest improvement personnel wise from last season to this season. Post depth.

Davis=Davis
Morgan>TJD
Brunk=Fitzner
Race=not a factor

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

And people want Archie fired after 2 for having to recreate a culture that didn't exist the past 9 years. IU fans are a certain kind of SPECIAL.

Well, I'm not one of those people.

But I will say that there should be absolutely no excuse for an IU coach missing the tournament 3 straight years -- unless it's a really unusual situation like the early Crean years. If we miss again, Archie should be fired. Any defenses of him are going to be harder and harder to support.

See, part of the problem that Archie has right now is that most people look at last year's roster and see a team that should've been better than 19-16/8-12 and an 8th place finish . Expectations matter -- a lot. Fairly or not, they set the benchmark. That's why very few people were calling for Tom Crean's head in his first few years. Everybody knew that it was a complete rebuild. Eventually, that excuse ran its course.

The cupboard that Archie inherited wasn't nearly as bare as the one Crean did.

 

[ufo33]

Davis=Davis
Morgan>TJD
Brunk=Fitzner
Race=not a factor

Healthy Davis > injured not playing Davis
Freshman TJD > Freshman Morgan
Brunk >> Fitzner
Healthy Race >> injured not playing Race

 

[fpeaugh]

Healthy Davis > injured not playing Davis
Freshman TJD > Freshman Morgan
Brunk >> Fitzner
Healthy Race >> injured not playing Race

Was Morgan a freshman last year?

This year’s front court will not be better than last year’s. No way, no how. That’s just pure delusions. We lost one of our top post players of the last 20 years and added a 4 star freshman and Butler backup. This is crazy talk.