Wait, the Unabomber is lecturing ME about getting carried away? I've officially stepped through the looking glass.
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IU golf course
- Thread starter twenty02
- Start date
Rolling Meadows did NOT close.
They were shut down for most of 2014, after Whitey died and the property was repossessed by the bank. Then a private equity group in Ohio bought the course and they have been operating it since then. They are looking for a buyer as they don't want to own it long term.
Spanky (from the Bloomington Country Club) was hired to be the superintendent/greenskeeper and he has done a great job of restoring the course. He has expanded the greens, and is slowly turning it back into the links course it was designed to be.
It still needs some work, but it's definitely alive and kicking.
i thank you also for the info.
i didn't know that guy died, horrible news.
haven't played the course for at least 5 yrs or more, but was a time i played it quite a bit.
greens were great and plenty large then, so don't know what this contracting and expanding talk is about.
other than possibly hole #10, i never saw the course as a "links" style at all, nor have i ever been much of a fan of links style courses.
the 2 nines were on totally different pieces of land.
the front had tons of elevation change and tree lined on many of the holes, (the 2 best virtues of a course imo), with the back being mostly flat and very few trees.
always thought the front was yard for yard tremendous, with some spectacular views.
the back was nice too, but didn't have near as nice a piece of land to work with.
really sorry to hear that guy died. glad the course is back open.
yes, if you think for a second that Bloomington or IU people "hating" golf would have anything to do with it if IU closed, you're flat out out of your mind.
as i detailed at the bottom of page 1, if IU does close, which would be absolutely horrible for Btown and IU, imo it will have absolutely nothing to do with the course, or it's condition.
like i detailed before, it could be flat out elite with added bunkers and conditioning, but regardless, is a great layout now and even if it's not in elite condition, it's infinitely better than no course at all, and a huge asset to the university on many fronts.
if it goes, imo it will be because, and only because, IU Health decided they wanted that land and just took it, and IU Health seems to do pretty much whatever they want.
some B10 schools have more than 1 champ course. IU isn't one of them.
if the champ course goes, then IU Health took the entire complex of champ course, par 3, and range, that's been a huge part of IU and Bloomington for well over half a century.
And now you've turned it into a conspiracy between IU Heath and Fred Glass to shut down the golf course. I can't say I'm surprised.
if IU does shut the champ golf course down, if you think it isn't because IU Health is taking that land, (after already taking the par 3 and the driving range), then you're even denser than i thought.
and that's an incredibly low bar.
(and i highly doubt this is Glass's call).
Pretty sure I'm the one who brought up IU Health but, by all means, continue writing your Manifesto.
They started shrinking the greens several years ago to save on maintenance time, cost etc. Tim Liddy who designed the course is mostly a links designer. He made Rolling Meadows so you could roll your ball onto every green. And the heather out there is pretty impressive. Another great course Tim Liddy designed is Hickory Stick in Greenwood. It's by far my favorite course on the southside of Indy.
I enjoy your detailed thoughts on the IU course.
I have been playing the course for 35 years. I agree that it needs to stay for the good of the town and university. And all of your suggestions are good ones.
But you know what...? After playing it about 25 times in 2015, all they really need to do is start keeping it in nicer condition and make the greens faster. It is great from April thru mid-July and then turns to absolute garbage. Every. Single. Year.
The fairways dry out. The grass dies. A weird dirt fungus takes hold. And regardless of the time of year, the greens are always ridiculously slow.
And it has been this way for as long as I can remember. Awesome until July and then essentially unplayable for the rest of the year. It's a disgrace. Just start spending some money on course maintenance, and things will improve dramatically. It will never be a top Big 10 course without major work as you stated, but at least it could be a consistently nice, well-kept course. And right now it isn't.
I have been playing the course for 35 years. I agree that it needs to stay for the good of the town and university. And all of your suggestions are good ones.
But you know what...? After playing it about 25 times in 2015, all they really need to do is start keeping it in nicer condition and make the greens faster. It is great from April thru mid-July and then turns to absolute garbage. Every. Single. Year.
The fairways dry out. The grass dies. A weird dirt fungus takes hold. And regardless of the time of year, the greens are always ridiculously slow.
And it has been this way for as long as I can remember. Awesome until July and then essentially unplayable for the rest of the year. It's a disgrace. Just start spending some money on course maintenance, and things will improve dramatically. It will never be a top Big 10 course without major work as you stated, but at least it could be a consistently nice, well-kept course. And right now it isn't.
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What you are describing sounds like an inadequate irrigation and drainage system. You can throw more money at it, but you're basically putting a band-aid on a sore, but not curing the underlying cancer.
That course sounds like it needs a 100% renovation...
They're going to have some sort of home base and practice area on campus because they just built the teams a new facility where you can shoot from inside out to the range and analyze your swing. It was dedicated last week. They will likely just play home matches at French Lick.
So are they building the hospital on the actual range? I previously mentioned the new practice facility they just dedicated...it would be odd to build that and then lose the range. If they could keep the practice set up and play up in French Lick I think that would be a solid set up.
2 different things. They have a very nice practice facility, with a small range and multiple target greens. It isn't open to the public. But it's probably 175 yard max shots
Then there is the regular full range, by the clubhouse, open to public. I believe that's where the hospital is going, I guess.
Playing home matches at FL is fine and all, but players need a course to actually play practice rounds on. Driving to FL for an afternoon round isn't reasonable. That's the equivalent of setting up a few baskets for shooting practice, but having to drive to Indy if the BB team wants to practice full court.
Nor is not even having a range where you can hit drivers.
If I'm a D1 level player getting recruited, I'm not going to a program that has no golf course and a range I can't hit more than 7 irons. Maybe Glass is just clueless about golf, but if that's his answer they should shut it down, because they aren't getting quality recruits with that setup.
I would assume that shutting down the current IU course would come with an alternate plan. Glass said that THIS course needs to be completely rebuilt or scrapped. He didn't say or imply that the golf program was in danger. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to scrap the course, then look around and say "what do we do now?"
The Pointe is up for sale. The current course could be replaced with a practice facility on the same site with home matches played elsewhere. They could also buy another piece of land and build a new course if they think it's not worth saving the current course. There are lots of options.
I don't have any special knowledge about it but, gauging by the historical lack of support by the University and the community for the course, the pressures being placed on it by proximity to the Griffy watershed (which many people in Bloomington desperately want cleaned up and protected) and the new hospital, and the reaction of the faculty the last time a major course overhaul was considered, I can't see anyone making a decision to put money into the current site.
Did you read the article?
Glass says straight out they would use existing courses if the IU course is closed.
It's a moronic statement, if you know anything about golf, whatsoever.
Just shut down the program. Or stand up to the tree hugging freaks.
I would also imagine that he's talked to the coaches about it too so, again, I'm guessing there's more to it than that story tells. The men only play at home once a year and the women haven't played a home match or tournament since 2012. They do need a place to practice but they have alternatives. It doesn't have to be on campus. I just don't think its the end of the golf programs if that course closes.
I'm not advocating for it but I don't think its that big of a deal either. It's not a good course and its never been well supported by either the school or the town. They could work with the city to put a little money into upgrading Cascades for a practice course and play at French Lick. It certainly wouldn't be a worse practice course and would give us a headline home course.
You don't get it.
Hoops Cat is the only one in this that had shown any realization about golf courses.
You saying 'putting money into cascades' proves you don't understand golf courses.
Nor do you understand what high level golfers want.
IU could build a fabulous golf course for $4m...that would be open to the public, that would have people from the entire midwest come and play for $80/round, and stay in btown and spend money. And have a great golf program.
Instead, FG will drive another IU sports program into the dustbin of history. And dumbasses like you will cheer him on.
The reason that the men's or women's teams don't play at home is because the IU course sucks. It's a dog in terms of B1G courses. I've been to the courses at Purdue, MSU, Wisconsin, Ohio State, and Iowa (to a lesser degree), that all blow the IU course out of the water. Not in the B1G, but Notre Dame also has a great golf course.
In terms of recruiting, having no quality home course for the golfers is a death knell for the golf program; kiss it goodbye. Others have said it, but why would any recruit come to IU for golf, when IU wouldn't have a course to play within an hour of campus? Having a place to practice is one thing, but I would even wager that the IU practice facility is nowhere near the quality of the ranges at Wisconsin, Purdue, or MSU. Those practice facilities are awesome - state of the art.
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that, assuming that the land the current course is sited on is desirable for a new hospital, then that land is worth a shit ton. I'm guessing its highest and best use isn't as a golf course; its on (I'm guessing again) some of the most valuable ground in Bloomington - 150-200 acres on 45 across from campus? With that, if IU sells the ground at market value for commercial land for a hospital, that land transfer would more than pay for a new golf course, including land purchase, in a less commercially-viable, and less environmentally-sensitive, location.
Of course, its also possible that the fix is in, and the land will be transferred from left hand to right hand, and all the time, the university will bemoan the fact that there was no money for a golf course, but it was ok to transfer the land to a profit-making enterprise like IU Health.
Huh? The problems with the IU Golf Course don't have anything to do with Cascades. They're two completely different pieces of property. Cascades is a muni course made for amateur golfers to play on weekends. It need more length and better greens and fairways for our golf team to use it but it could be done without much trouble. The IU course has drainage problems because it's in the steeply sloped, highly erodible, heavily polluted Griffy watershed.
Again, I'm not advocating for anything either way. I'm just discussing possibilities. I'm not a golf course architect but I do understand Griffy, Bloomington, IU, and reality. All I've said is that I don't believe that renovating the current course is a viable option.
You know not of what you speak. You can't make Cascades longer, unless you acquire more land. Is that possible?
You can't improve the greens and fairways without rebuilding the greens, and installing new turfgrass with a new irrigation system that would match the quality of turfgrass required for B1G tournament play. Probably bentgrass, which is more expensive to maintain than blue or zoysia.
All this said, I do agree with you - renovating probably doesn't make the most sense.
I think the smart thing to do is to sell the current course to IU Health at Market Value, then use the proceeds to construct a new course. I would bet that IU already has a piece of dirt in inventory that would suffice.
We agree on everything except that I don't think closing the current course necessarily means the end of the golf programs. If the coaches bail, my opinion changes. There are alternatives including, as we both mentioned, building a new course. That hasn't been discussed publicly but that doesn't mean its not an option. I expect that there's a plan beyond closing the course and making the rest up as we go.
What I've said is that I don't believe renovating the current course in the fashion that it really needs is politically viable and for all the reasons that you mentioned.
Ok, that's cool, but you understand that good golfers golf a lot. All the damn time, in fact. It's what they do.
(side bar - It's also why I suck at golf, because I can't play as much as I need to to get better. )
In my opinion, similar to baseball, IU has an advantage in golf - it's the southern most course in the B1G; weather is more favorable for sure. IU should have a good golf program. Anything less is a cop out.
And, a brand new golf course would be chump change compared to the millions that they're dumping in Assembly Hall right now.
And, I don't expect that an IU golf course would be self sustaining financially, but it would provide benefits beyond the financials.
IU needs a quality golf course.
I don't doubt what you're saying about Cascades. There probably isn't enough room to make longer, though rebuilding it would be cheaper that what's needed at the IU course. I just tossed it out as an option and really meant that it could be upgraded for practice. It will never be a tournament course.
I don't know that the IU Health campus is going to swallow up the course but they'd probably like to have the property in inventory. Not all of it, though. I suspect the northern portion will end up as part of the Research and Teaching Preserve.
claiming you're the one who brought up IU Health is beyond ridiculous.
thinking this whole thing is about the course, rather than about IU Health commandeering that land, is beyond naive.
as for your other posts, they tell me you don't play golf, and are clueless on the subject of golf courses.
Oh, I get it. I'd play all the time if I could. And I do agree that we need a good course. It just won't be in the current location. If you think about it, it's pretty remarkable that our golf programs have been as good as they have been playing on such a substandard facility. Not that they're great but they're better than our investment in them would predict.
I'm thinking that you bifurcate the course - trade the land adjacent to 45, which has significant commercial value, return the northern portion to nature preserve or whatever.
50 acres at even $7.50 psf yields over $16 million. I'm admittedly out of my area on land values in BTown, but $7.50 psf is conservative for what I see in NW Indiana.....
Your're right. Hoops Cat mentioned IU Health before I did. You didn't have anything to say about it, though, until you decided to argue with me.
It is about the course. Renovation plans for that course predate the IU Health plans by decades and have never been supported. IU Health is only part of the equation.
And I never argued about the golf. I made a point about the politics.
while i haven't played IU in years, last time i played it it had the late summer issues you mention.
so you're correct about the condition thing in late summer being that way for a long time.
but it wasn't always that way, and it wasn't that way longer than than it has been that way..
you're also correct that to be elite it needs the upgrades mentioned, but that "as is" it's still a more than adequate course.
What is it about golf courses that elicit emotional rather than rational responses to cost-benefit questions? You've clearly stated your thoughts on the quality of the course, and its potential, which I'm not arguing.
The issue, though, is that to cure the things that you and other posters have noted would cost millions. Why not sell the ground to IU Health, take the proceeds, and build a great new course on non-environmentally sensitive ground on the outskirts of town?
"let's pave paradise, and put up a parking lot."
if that's the road you want to go down, there isn't a square foot of greenspace on IU's campus that you couldn't monetize, and just say to hell with incredible essence and the inherit true value of the campus.
You're overstating the value of the IU golf course to the greater campus. No one but golfers go there, and although you clearly love it, an excellent golf course could be built in its stead.
This is the emotion that I'm talking about. Its a golf course; that's all it is.
Actually, what he (and I) think will happen means that most of the course will become a protected natural area. Only the stretch along the highway is viable commercially.
you're making a fool of yourself. (in every post you've made here).
not that it's that big a deal, but i'm the one who first brought up IU Health here.
and i've addressed your "politics" BS in previous posts.
there are always "anti golf" people everywhere.
there isn't a golf course in the country someone didn't fight, and have people still fighting.
as for Griffy, it hasn't been a water source for Btown for decades.
and yes, as i said before, you'll always have some environmentalists/tree hugger element that's opposed to every course ever built, and every housing addition ever built, and every other development ever done.
but you're beyond naive to think that's what this is about.
This is one of the whitest threads the AOTF has ever seen, and that's saying something.
It's been a good discussion.
You have a thought on it, other than to get your snark on?
Hoops Cat
I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of selling the land to IU Health and using the proceeds to build a brand new golf course somewhere else in town. That would in fact be a brilliant move -- as long as a new course were built. But I have my fears that it would get stopped by the tree huggers. I know a location a few miles West of there on 10th street toward Lake Lemon that would be perfect, and no more than 5 or 6 minutes from the current course.
I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of selling the land to IU Health and using the proceeds to build a brand new golf course somewhere else in town. That would in fact be a brilliant move -- as long as a new course were built. But I have my fears that it would get stopped by the tree huggers. I know a location a few miles West of there on 10th street toward Lake Lemon that would be perfect, and no more than 5 or 6 minutes from the current course.
Thought: I played the IU course about fifteen years ago. It sucked back then, too.
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