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Is this the end for Bibi?

HoosierJimbo89 said:
I would agree that there is definitely an ethnic/religious element in the conflict. But, the land is the central part of the conflict, and the biggest issue is there are still extreme people on both sides that want the whole thing for themselves, which isn't ever going to happen. Reasonable people can live with others that are different from them.

Imagine if a group different from you kicked you out of your house or killed you or your family members, took over America, didn't give you anywhere to go in the country if you survived, and continued treating you like crap when you tried to exist, and denied you basic human rights. You would hate their guts, as you should.

I think if you are trying to pick which side is "better," you might as well be pissing up a rope. They both need to grow up and learn to share. I expect more out of Israel since they have more resources and power.
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Basing morality on who you perceive as more powerful is not really morality at all.

Would it make you more empathetic towards Israel if more of their citizens died to even the score?
 
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HooDatGuy said:
Basing morality on who you perceive as more powerful is not really morality at all.

Would it make you more empathetic towards Israel if more of their citizens died to even the score?
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If somebody has more resources and ability to make something happen, I'd tend to hold them more responsible. Plus, my tax dollars are going to Israel, and I don't like what they are doing with it. Nobody likes a bully.

The whole idea is settling the conflict so nobody else has to get hurt or die. I want both sides to be able to coexist and live in peace. Since they are the only two groups crazy enough to give a crap about that land, I don't see why they can't.
 
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HoosierJimbo89 said:
If somebody has more resources and ability to make something happen, I'd tend to hold them more responsible. Plus, my tax dollars are going to Israel, and I don't like what they are doing with it. Nobody likes a bully.

The whole idea is settling the conflict so nobody else has to get hurt or die. I want both sides to be able to coexist and live in peace. Since they are the only two groups crazy enough to give a crap about that land, I don't see why they can't.
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Your tax dollars are going to Hamas by way of Iran as well.

Bullies are the ones that initiate physical conflict, Israel is not the bully.
 
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HooDatGuy said:
Your tax dollars are going to Hamas by way of Iran as well.

Bullies are the ones that initiate physical conflict, Israel is not the bully.
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If US money is somehow finding its way to Hamas, I'm certainly not for that, either.

Israel is and has done plenty of bullying, and they are, by far, the more powerful party. It sounds like you think Israel is somehow the morally superior side, perhaps because of the Holocaust, their relationship with the US, or that they engaged in land conquest like the US, and that simply isn't the case.
 
HooDatGuy said:
Basing morality on who you perceive as more powerful is not really morality at all.

Would it make you more empathetic towards Israel if more of their citizens died to even the score?
Click to expand...
Basing morality on what religion the person who ruled the land in 63 BCE isn't really morality, either.

Jimbo is right. This is about land. But you are also right. It is also about religion and ethnicity.

For people like the soon-to-be PM Bennett, Israel must be a Jewish nation-state. That is to say, Israel the state must be for and of the Jewish nation (people). And for him, and many others like him, that includes the West Bank. The endgame for the hard right in Israel is either ethnic cleansing or genocide. They want the West Bank to be part of Israel, but they do not want the current occupants of the West Bank to be part of Israel.

The stated goal of Israel's right wing is, by accepted definition, a crime against humanity. The only reason we don't view it with the same disdain we view the anti-Israel Arab factions is lingering guilt the West feels over the Holocaust.
 
HoosierJimbo89 said:
If US money is somehow finding its way to Hamas, I'm certainly not for that, either.

Israel is and has done plenty of bullying, and they are, by far, the more powerful party. It sounds like you think Israel is somehow the morally superior side, perhaps because of the Holocaust, their relationship with the US, or that they engaged in land conquest like the US, and that simply isn't the case.
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You think a power imbalance justifies different moral expectations. That is why your view on this conflict is warped.

A simple thought experiment is to reverse the roles, give the Palestinians the military resources of Israel and vice versa. Israel wouldn’t last a week and if you’re honest you’d admit as much.
 
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HooDatGuy said:
You think a power imbalance justifies different moral expectations. That is why your view on this conflict is warped.

A simple thought experiment is to reverse the roles, give the Palestinians the military resources of Israel and vice versa. Israel wouldn’t last a week and if you’re honest you’d admit as much.
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No, I think the extreme elements on both sides that prevent peace equally suck.

I would disagree. All Palestinians aren't Hamas, and all Jews aren't extremists. That is painting with a broad brush. There have been plenty of Jews and Palestinians that have lived together in the past and present that haven't tried to kill each other.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Basing morality on what religion the person who ruled the land in 63 BCE isn't really morality, either.

Jimbo is right. This is about land. But you are also right. It is also about religion and ethnicity.

For people like the soon-to-be PM Bennett, Israel must be a Jewish nation-state. That is to say, Israel the state must be for and of the Jewish nation (people). And for him, and many others like him, that includes the West Bank. The endgame for the hard right in Israel is either ethnic cleansing or genocide. They want the West Bank to be part of Israel, but they do not want the current occupants of the West Bank to be part of Israel.

The stated goal of Israel's right wing is, by accepted definition, a crime against humanity. The only reason we don't view it with the same disdain we view the anti-Israel Arab factions is lingering guilt the West feels over the Holocaust.
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Your characterization of his personal beliefs may be correct but Bennet has already agreed to no annexation of the West Bank and to stop settlement building.
 
HooDatGuy said:
Your characterization of his personal beliefs may be correct but Bennet has already agreed to no annexation of the West Bank and to stop settlement building.
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And Netanyahu once stated he wanted a two state solution. These are politicians after all.
 
HooDatGuy said:
I look at it as akin to repealing Roe v Wade. Far right leaders throw out annexation to appease the base.

Political realities get in the way of it ever actually happening.
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I think that's a decent analogy, in a way. But I think you're wrong to dismiss it as all or mostly just politics. Just as pro-lifers really do believe abortion is murder, many Israelis really do believe in a sort of Manifest Destiny for Israel.
 
HooDatGuy said:
Money is money. Has the same dollar bill gone from the U.S treasury to Tehran to Gaza? Who knows. But it should tell us to stop financing regimes who fund terrorist groups.
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How are we financing Tehran?
 
HooDatGuy said:
Money is money. Has the same dollar bill gone from the U.S treasury to Tehran to Gaza? Who knows. But it should tell us to stop financing regimes who fund terrorist groups.
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The fungibility of money always complicates these issues, but question: What would you have done with the $400 million? Just kept it locked up in a box forever?
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
I think that's a decent analogy, in a way. But I think you're wrong to dismiss it as all or mostly just politics. Just as pro-lifers really do believe abortion is murder, many Israelis really do believe in a sort of Manifest Destiny for Israel.
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Israel was created because of Zionism, which is creation of an all Jewish state. Where do those borders begin and end? They used to include the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, and Golan Heights was Syria and the West Bank was Jordan. There are absolutely people in Israel that want to annex more than what Israel is right now and are more interested in that than a two state solution.
 
HoosierJimbo89 said:
Israel was created because of Zionism, which is creation of an all Jewish state. Where do those borders begin and end? They used to include the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, and Golan Heights was Syria and the West Bank was Jordan. There are absolutely people in Israel that want to annex more than what Israel is right now and are more interested in that than a two state solution.
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When Israel declared independence, they made a conscious choice not to delineate borders. Some wanted to agree to the UN Partition, while others wanted to lay claim to all that they considered "historic" Israel. The reason they punted was because they knew that the Arab states were going to jump into the war now that the Brits had left, and they didn't want to restrict themselves from claiming any land they might win from their neighbors.
 
HooDatGuy said:
Your tax dollars are going to Hamas by way of Iran as well.

Bullies are the ones that initiate physical conflict, Israel is not the bully.
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Let's review... Hamas is a Muslim organization supported by a Muslim nation (Iran).
Hamas is the bully and Israel is blameless...

So why when these Palestinian CHRISTIANS are asked if they can ever forgive the Israelis, does the question evoke such a visceral reaction. Why do all of these Arabic CHRISTIANS consider Israel the bully?

The guy who makes these videos is a Jew who immigrated from Canada to Israel, and he is fluent in both Hebrew and Arabic. The questions come from viewers, mostly outside the Middle East, and are asked of both Israelis and Palestinians...


In addition to these Palestinians who might take issue with your claim, you also have a group of former Israeli soldiers (IDF veterans) who served in the territories and felt they were bullies...They are pretty actively speaking out against Israeli policy in the occupied territories and what they were a part of...

 
cosmickid said:
Let's review... Hamas is a Muslim organization supported by a Muslim nation (Iran).
Hamas is the bully and Israel is blameless...

So why when these Palestinian CHRISTIANS are asked if they can ever forgive the Israelis, does the question evoke such a visceral reaction. Why do all of these Arabic CHRISTIANS consider Israel the bully?

The guy who makes these videos is a Jew who immigrated from Canada to Israel, and he is fluent in both Hebrew and Arabic. The questions come from viewers, mostly outside the Middle East, and are asked of both Israelis and Palestinians...
View embedded media


In addition to these Palestinians who might take issue with your claim, you also have a group of former Israeli soldiers (IDF veterans) who served in the territories and felt they were bullies...They are pretty actively speaking out against Israeli policy in the occupied territories and what they were a part of...

View embedded media
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You can find some jaded IDF soldiers. Is this supposed to be some kind of point that you are making?

Do you think there aren’t jaded U.S. military veterans? Does the fact that they’re jaded make the U.S a bully?

If you say yes you’re a hypocrite, if you say no you’re granting that the IDF video you posted was pointless.

Choose wisely.
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
The fungibility of money always complicates these issues, but question: What would you have done with the $400 million? Just kept it locked up in a box forever?
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Hell no I would have used it to pay for all the bullshit they cost our country over the years. Just a question about why you are so happy, ignorance is bliss?
 
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