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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I think the point here is that the high school student is supposed to be his own editor. Writing is not just about putting ideas down on a page; it is also about editing one’s own work.
As for the master-at-your-own-pace movement and “standards-based grading,” yes that is the new fad and so, of course, my school district is implementing it. It would be great for self-motivated kids or 1-to-1 teacher to student ratios.
But with 20-30 kids in a class, it is going to encourage procrastination and is a nightmare for teachers if kids wait to learn subjects while they are trying to teach a class of 20-30 kids at a certain pace. I’ve already heard complaints from parents about this.
Getting feedback is important on everything. Math and engineering problems, too. Construction projects. Everything.
In school, where you are being graded for what YOU do, not how good your feedback loop is, it should not be allowed. That's not "equitable." To the extent people want to talk about structural racism, here's where they have a point (even if it has nothing to do with racism, and more with structural classism/income disparity).
I think of a take home essay or writing project like a take-home test. If you had someone edit or give you feedback on a take-home test, it would be cheating. If you had someone come in and give you feedback on your essays you write for an AP exam or the SAT, it would be cheating. I'm not sure why an essay that counts for a grade in school would be different. Same goes, in my mind, for an essay that will be used by a school to place you in a college.
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Obviously, I respectfully disagree. On most math projects and engineering problems, there is one single correct answer. In writing, there are potentially infinite great answers. In math in particular, you aren't commonly going back to go over the problem again to get to a better answer (especially in high school math) because there is one right answer.
I'm sure there is value in measuring someone's raw first draft writing, but to me the most equitable way to do that would be an in-class assignment. Certainly application essays for college, which are something that kids spend four to six months on, more resemble writing a student does that gets feedback than that raw writing.
That's why a better comparison might be an architectural project, which typically contains subjective evaluations of answers. Taking feedback and acting on it is among the most important skills one can learn. And in professional writing, it's the most common way writing is delivered.
Heck, my lawyer gets so much feedback on the deals he's papering for us that he bills hundreds of hours when writing the first draft only takes her a fraction of that...it's just that the feedback comes from the other side's lawyer. :>)
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I get where you and the others are coming from on this. And I agree that asking for comments, recognizing the good ones, and implementing them well is a crucial skill.
I guess I think of school as more the in-class assignment type of writing. All of it. That’s how you build the skills— by doing it yourself.
I also don’t think y’all are appreciating how much wealthy people can game this system this way. That’s my main concern here.
Nothing new. May be a different tactic. How much did Fred Trump donate to UPenn?
I hear you and agree with you about the wealthy gaming the system for college admissions. But that's the thing about systems...they are going to be gamed.
I likewise think that standardized testing is a better way to measure than just grades, essays, and interviews. I understand the issues that people have with standardized testing but it seems like those issues are lesser negatives than the alternatives.
And the thing I notice is college priorities don't seem aligned with what you and I would like them to be. It seems that a lot of colleges aren't incentivized as much by enrolling the students who they can build into the best graduates. They are more incentivized to maximize revenue, whether that be through higher out-of-state tuition, larger alumni donations, or what have you.
I totally agree with you. I have 5 friends who are academics from all over the place, UIC, Georgia Tech, Dartmouth, McGill (in Canada) and Dominican University, which is in Forest Park, Illinois.
Anyway, we were on vacation together (they're all originally from Chicago) and sitting around one day. I asked them how difficult it is to catch students cheating, given the the internet and certain programs that you can use to figure out whether they're plagiarizing. They said you don't need that stuff for the most part because you know when someone is cheating when they've been a C student all year and suddenly their final paper is absolutely brilliant. They can tell immediately and all they have to do is start questioning their data and it's all over.
What I think is crazy is the rise of "helicopter parents". Parents call these professors all the time to complain that poor "Liam" or "Isabella" should have gotten a better grade on this or that test, quiz, or paper. The profs won't talk to them. If you're in college, you're all grown up. You're an adult. There's a great thread on Reddit about the "worst" helicopter parents. There are actually parents who enroll in college and take the same courses as their kids so they can take notes for them or at least share them.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
When I was a kid, the teacher was always right. If I got in trouble in school, I was sure going to hear about it from my mom and dad. It wasn't the teacher who was going to get a lecture. Not only that, but my siblings and I were expected to have a job a few months after college and to move out. That's how everyone was back then, at least where I grew up.
^^^sorry for the long winded post.
My wife is a professional editor for a major publishing company. She has often offered advice and suggested edits to my now-grown kids on essays, I think even including college admissions essays. It was never "re-doing an essay for them" but was instead very much a teaching exercise. She might say "You know, this paragraph here is a bit unclear to me, for this reason. If your main point is [x], you might want to mention [y] first". I don't see anything wrong with that approach.
the difference is in the "suggestions" being applied before or after the grading.
Very interesting thread. Not sure what to think after reading the responses as there are convincing arguments in each direction IMO.
One one hand, I buy into the argument that successful and smart parents have been helping their offspring succeed for millenia. So, is this really that different? I'm going to go with yes because this, college admission coaching, etc. is egregious, but it's not definitive for me.
I do think all of this reliance is causing kids to struggle in the real world when its "sink or swim".
In the final analysis isn't it how well the person can eventually write as he proceeds through life ?
The key word in this thread IMO is "cheating". When it comes to learning, we all are gifted at birth with certain aptitudes. Some compared with others are cheated from birth and thereafter. The thereafter can include any number of advantages along with disadvantages. An advantage in this thread could include a tutor or parent who assists the student to become a better writer.
Obviously writing a paper for a person and the person never learns on his own to write cheats. Cheats not others in a competitive grading environment, but cheats the person who never improves his writing skills.
so you're saying kicking the ball out of the rough should be legal, as long as you learn your lesson not to hit it in the rough in the first place.
or should be legal, if one wasn't as gifted a golfer at birth.
OooooooooKaaaaaaaay Judge.
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I’ve recently come across this on a much lower scale here locally. A lot of kids are using an academic coach to prep them for college. The services offered made sense, were practical, and I thoughts very expensive.
We passed but I almost bit the bullet just to have someone else yell at my kid to get her shit done. She’s going to get me sent to prison for murder.
IGW, judging from your take on my essay, give me a "D" for not getting my point across.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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Right. I get the pressure. I haven't done that (yet). We have friends that have done that.
My point in this whole thread is that the system is actually fairer to everyone if you rely more, not less, on standardized testing. The more subjectivity you build into the system, the better chance the rich have to game the system and get their kids into top universities by virtue of their money, not the kid's academic abilities.
Huh, I always figured San Bernadino
Is your neighbor OK
I didn't know The Accountant was a biopic, huh.
Great movie by the way if you like stupid action and Jon Bernthal. Don't worry we can discuss it ourselves. Murt doesn't read spoilers. FYI
You’re probably correct. The wealthy will have have an advantage, but the standardized tests are likely the best we can do. Of course the rich can afford all manner of SAT/ACT prep, tutors, etc.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I don't like Affleck but liked the Accountant. He's good at playing a guy who has trouble showing emotions.Huh, I always figured San Bernadino
Is your neighbor OK
I didn't know The Accountant was a biopic, huh.
Great movie by the way if you like stupid action and Jon Bernthal. Don't worry we can discuss it ourselves. Murt doesn't read spoilers. FYI
C'mon, man , you don't have to bring Trump into every damn thread.
I sure wouldn't let my kid do it. That will come back to bite the kids that do it in the future. Why not just hire someone to do all their homework. Of course a teacher can make things difficult for them by requiring them to do something on the spot in the classroom.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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An interesting follow up: make all college admissions a lottery system?
www.forbes.com
Is It Time To Ditch Selective College Admissions?
It’s time for the leaders of selective colleges to heed their own lectures about democratizing opportunity and adopt lottery admissions.
www.forbes.com
