How Out Of Control Will It Get, And What To Do?

[i'vegotwinners]

a week ago there were i believe 10 overdoses and 1 or two deaths in Btown.

TEN, in one day!

many were on East Kirkwood, what should be a showcase area for Btown, and S. Walnut.

2 days ago, i believe there were 15.

15! in one day!

homeless everywhere, and junkies openly using.

ya, it's been a problem for a while now, but it's really jumped the shark lately.

might as well set up a permanent narcan outlet between Sample Gates and the downtown square.

McRobbie has to be shting his pants, and no doubt Nick's, Cafe' Pizzaria, and the other merchants must be too.

no doubt the new condo/apt developers along there are thrilled as well.

on the other hand, how in heck did the heroin thing get this out of control, and are junkies seeing narcan as a get out of the morgue free card, thus a green light to shoot up.

local paper says IU Health charges like $3,200 per trip for the 1 mile ambulance run from Btown Hospital to east Kirkwood. (another debate i won't address here).

on a side note, i'm also reading that many of the other county govts in Indiana, (the heavily GOP ones no doubt), are literally transporting their homeless and junkies to Btown, and dropping them off at the edge of town for Btown to have to deal with.

 

[Hank Reardon]

a week ago there were i believe 10 overdoses and 1 or two deaths in Btown.

TEN, in one day!

many were on East Kirkwood, what should be a showcase area for Btown, and S. Walnut.

2 days ago, i believe there were 15.

15! in one day!

homeless everywhere, and junkies openly using.

ya, it's been a problem for a while now, but it's really jumped the shark lately.

might as well set up a permanent narcan outlet between Sample Gates and the downtown square.

McRobbie has to be shting his pants, and no doubt Nick's, Cafe' Pizzaria, and the other merchants must be too.

no doubt the new condo/apt developers along there are thrilled as well.

on the other hand, how in heck did the heroin thing get this out of control, and are junkies seeing narcan as a get out of the morgue free card, thus a green light to shoot up.

local paper says IU Health charges like $3,200 per trip for the 1 mile ambulance run from Btown Hospital to east Kirkwood. (another debate i won't address here).

on a side note, i'm also reading that many of the other county govts in Indiana, (the heavily GOP ones no doubt), are literally transporting their homeless and junkies to Btown, and dropping them off at the edge of town for Btown to have to deal with.

Quit saving them and let 'em die? That's unpopular but maybe we should quit fighting Darwin.

 

[stollcpa]

on a side note, i'm also reading that many of the other county govts in Indiana, (the heavily GOP ones no doubt), are literally transporting their homeless and junkies to Btown, and dropping them off at the edge of town for Btown to have to deal with.

You care to names of GOP counties your accusing or is this more "fake news"?

 

[iu_a_att]

a week ago there were i believe 10 overdoses and 1 or two deaths in Btown.

TEN, in one day!

many were on East Kirkwood, what should be a showcase area for Btown, and S. Walnut.

2 days ago, i believe there were 15.

15! in one day!

homeless everywhere, and junkies openly using.

ya, it's been a problem for a while now, but it's really jumped the shark lately.

might as well set up a permanent narcan outlet between Sample Gates and the downtown square.

McRobbie has to be shting his pants, and no doubt Nick's, Cafe' Pizzaria, and the other merchants must be too.

no doubt the new condo/apt developers along there are thrilled as well.

on the other hand, how in heck did the heroin thing get this out of control, and are junkies seeing narcan as a get out of the morgue free card, thus a green light to shoot up.

local paper says IU Health charges like $3,200 per trip for the 1 mile ambulance run from Btown Hospital to east Kirkwood. (another debate i won't address here).

on a side note, i'm also reading that many of the other county govts in Indiana, (the heavily GOP ones no doubt), are literally transporting their homeless and junkies to Btown, and dropping them off at the edge of town for Btown to have to deal with.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/ne...cle_457a5d06-9a31-59f4-98d3-d1183c792cc1.html
http://fox59.com/2017/06/28/police-1-week-27-overdoses-in-downtown-bloomington/

 

[stollcpa]

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/ne...cle_457a5d06-9a31-59f4-98d3-d1183c792cc1.html
http://fox59.com/2017/06/28/police-1-week-27-overdoses-in-downtown-bloomington/

Need to be long sentences for the dealers.

 

[Hank Reardon]

Need to be long sentences for the dealers.

Won't really solve the problem though. So long as there is a demand, someone will supply it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Need to be long sentences for the dealers.

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

 

[UncleMark]

on a side note, i'm also reading that many of the other county govts in Indiana, (the heavily GOP ones no doubt), are literally transporting their homeless and junkies to Btown, and dropping them off at the edge of town for Btown to have to deal with.

You care to names of GOP counties your accusing or is this more "fake news"?

That nonsense has been going around town for ages. It gets ramped up whenever there's a lot of talk about the homeless. It got really strong a few years back when the Shalom Center opened up just south of the post office.

 

[stollcpa]

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

You're 100% correct. Whether it's a dentist or doc I've seen first hand the first thing they do is prescribe a pain med.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

They are really starting to cut back, but the results of that won't be seen for years and years and years.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

No kidding. I just had a vasectomy done and the urologist prescribed me an opiate for the pain. I shredded the script as soon as I walked in my house.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

You're 100% correct. Whether it's a dentist or doc I've seen first hand the first thing they do is prescribe a pain med.

It's because reimbursements have been tied to patient satisfaction scoring. No pain meds or benzos = potentially bad surveys = potentially less than the usual reimbursement for some hospitals. They started this in 2012. I don't see it lasting much longer. Hopefully not.

 

[UncleMark]

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

You're 100% correct. Whether it's a dentist or doc I've seen first hand the first thing they do is prescribe a pain med.

There's plenty of blame to go around. There was a time when the usual pain meds wouldn't alleviate pain entirely. Now patients want to be pain free, and doctors are able to provide that. But oh what a price... The opioids at the root of this crisis were originally developed for treating end stage cancer. Prescribing them for back pain or post surgery is madness.

Full disclosure: I have what my MD mom called a "high pain threshold". I've been burned, had broken bones, dental abscesses, slipped disks, you name it, and have never felt the need to seek out big time pain relief. I can live with discomfort, and usually get over whatever I'm dealing with in short order. But since pain is so individualized and subjective -- what causes me discomfort may be excruciating for others -- I try my best not to be judgmental about how others deal with pain. (Except for my little brother -- he's a whiny little bitch.)

 

[UncleMark]

It's because reimbursements have been tied to patient satisfaction scoring. No pain meds or benzos = potentially bad surveys = potentially less than the usual reimbursement for some hospitals.

You posted while I was composing my post. I didn't realize it had been codified that way, but that ties in exactly with my point about patients expecting to be pain free.

 

[Optimist13]

The feds including DEA and US Atty need to answer some questions fast

 

[zeke4ahs]

Doctors need to stop prescribing pain meds like candy.

You're 100% correct. Whether it's a dentist or doc I've seen first hand the first thing they do is prescribe a pain med.

I've heard of that also but then I've also heard of people in desperate need of short term pain meds who were told to take Tylenol when they were in severe pain.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I've heard of that also but then I've also heard of people in desperate need of short term pain meds who were told to take Tylenol when they were in severe pain.

were those the patients with no Rx insurance?

 

[wiede]

They are really starting to cut back, but the results of that won't be seen for years and years and years.

For quite a while, big pharma (Perdue pharma, especially) "educated" the medical community on pain being the "5th" vital sign. You can't make this chit up.

So, as this narrative took hold, more opiates were put in circulation.

So, I don't blame the MD's. They were basically doing what they were told to do during the run-up to this crisis. And I've heard the same story from many of the MD's I work with now. All of them have changed strategies, and become pretty damn conservative when it comes to issuing ANY type of opioid. Even tramadol, which is a synthetic opiod that doesn't give you the "high" an opiate does.

I blame the drug makers, as they pushed the narrative simply to push more product. Perdue pharma actually made the claim that only 2% of people that took OxyContin (a heavy duty opiate) become addicted to the drug.

In hindsight, that's f'n ridiculous. The execs that pushed this false narrative should pay some heavy prices for their behavior.

Things will get better, but not before they get worse for a while. Because opiates are hard as hell to quit. And a lot of very innocent people received them, through no real fault of their own.

The fact that the latest senate proposal on healthcare would cut funding for opiate addiction is asanine.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

For quite a while, big pharma (Perdue pharma, especially) "educated" the medical community on pain being the "5th" vital sign. You can't make this chit up.

So, as this narrative took hold, more opiates were put in circulation.

So, I don't blame the MD's. They were basically doing what they were told to do during the run-up to this crisis. And I've heard the same story from many of the MD's I work with now. All of them have changed strategies, and become pretty damn conservative when it comes to issuing ANY type of opioid. Even tramadol, which is a synthetic opiod that doesn't give you the "high" an opiate does.

I blame the drug makers, as they pushed the narrative simply to push more product. Perdue pharma actually made the claim that only 2% of people that took OxyContin (a heavy duty opiate) become addicted to the drug.

In hindsight, that's f'n ridiculous. The execs that pushed this false narrative should pay some heavy prices for their behavior.

Things will get better, but not before they get worse for a while. Because opiates are hard as hell to quit. And a lot of very innocent people received them, through no real fault of their own.

The fact that the latest senate proposal on healthcare would cut funding for opiate addiction is asanine.

It's also obvious which generation has grown up thinking they need narcotics for every little thing. You get a 20-30 year old with a stubbed toe and they want morphine, dilaudid, and some percocet to go. You get a 60-70 year old with their leg on backwards and you might, and I mean MIGHT, talk them into taking Tylenol.

 

[stollcpa]

Things will get better, but not before they get worse for a while. Because opiates are hard as hell to quit. And a lot of very innocent people received them, through no real fault of their own.

.

A few years ago my mother fell in the bathroom and shattered her ankle. She broke a bone in half and it was protruding outside of her skin. The ambulance workers had a difficult time getting her out of the bathroom to the hospital.

After surgery she was prescribed OxyContin. She was dealing with a lot of pain. My sis who lived just up the road became convinced our mother was addicted after several weeks. My sis didn't feel like the surgeon was listening so she flushed the pills down the stool. It was tense for a few weeks but my sis made sure no more pills entered the house. If my sis wasn't close and watching I can only imagine what would have happened.

 

[stollcpa]

There's plenty of blame to go around. There was a time when the usual pain meds wouldn't alleviate pain entirely. Now patients want to be pain free, and doctors are able to provide that. But oh what a price... The opioids at the root of this crisis were originally developed for treating end stage cancer. Prescribing them for back pain or post surgery is madness.

Full disclosure: I have what my MD mom called a "high pain threshold". I've been burned, had broken bones, dental abscesses, slipped disks, you name it, and have never felt the need to seek out big time pain relief. I can live with discomfort, and usually get over whatever I'm dealing with in short order. But since pain is so individualized and subjective -- what causes me discomfort may be excruciating for others -- I try my best not to be judgmental about how others deal with pain. (Except for my little brother -- he's a whiny little bitch.)

I thought I had a pretty high threshold for pain but this past tax season symptoms of my ulcerative colitis and lower back pain was extremely difficult to deal with. I didn't take any prescribed pain meds but I got close. I usually do everything to excess therefore I am terrified of getting started with pain meds.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

A few years ago my mother fell in the bathroom and shattered her ankle. She broke a bone in half and it was protruding outside of her skin. The ambulance workers had a difficult time getting her out of the bathroom to the hospital.

After surgery she was prescribed OxyContin. She was dealing with a lot of pain. My sis who lived just up the road became convinced our mother was addicted after several weeks. My sis didn't feel like the surgeon was listening so she flushed the pills down the stool. It was tense for a few weeks but my sis made sure no more pills entered the house. If my sis wasn't close and watching I can only imagine what would have happened.

It's very easy to become addicted to narcotics, even if you're taking them as prescribed. I know people who's docs keep them on norco or percocet to pretty much keep them from going through withdrawals. They've been on the meds for years and now if they go a day or so without one they'll start shaking, vomiting, and sweating real bad. Dope sick. These aren't people who take 10 pills a day or crush and snort them. One pill a day will stave off withdrawal. Their bodies cannot physically handle not having the narcotics in their system. If they went more than two or three days without taking one of their narcs, they'd start to go into convulsions/seizures and possibly even cardiac arrest from withdrawing.

 

[twenty02]

Lilly and Pfizer are in the middle of a joint venture to bring a non-opioid pain reliever to market. Believe it's in late stage trials now. FDA has fast-tracked it, realizing what everyone knows, that the opioid situation is out of control.

 

[UncleMark]

It's very easy to become addicted to narcotics, even if you're taking them as prescribed. I know people who's docs keep them on norco or percocet to pretty much keep them from going through withdrawals.

It may only be a matter of semantics, I'd like to add that there's a difference between being habituated and being addicted. Exhibiting withdrawal symptoms when meds are removed doesn't mean the patient is some kind of junkie. Proper pain management acknowledges and accounts for it.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

It may only be a matter of semantics, I'd like to add that there's a difference between being habituated and being addicted. Exhibiting withdrawal symptoms when meds are removed doesn't mean the patient is some kind of junkie. Proper pain management acknowledges and accounts for it.

There really isn't a difference. Addiction is addiction. If you're to a point that you display physical symptoms from going even one day with taking a narc, you're addicted. Some can just keep their addiction under control with one pill a day. Some people want to take as much as they can get. The person taking one pill per day to stave off withdrawal can be just as addicted as the person passed out on the sidewalk from taking 10 pills. Their addictions may have started for different reasons though.

Edit: I mean from a medical standpoint as far as addiction is concerned.

 

[UncleMark]

There really isn't a difference. Addiction is addiction. If you're to a point that you display physical symptoms from going even one day with taking a narc, you're addicted. Some can just keep their addiction under control with one pill a day. Some people want to take as much as they can get. The person taking one pill per day to stave off withdrawal can be just as addicted as the person passed out on the sidewalk from taking 10 pills. Their addictions may have started for different reasons though.

Edit: I mean from a medical standpoint as far as addiction is concerned.

We don't disagree. Just wanted to make the point that being addicted technically isn't a bad thing. Chronic pain sufferers can and do take narcotic pain meds safely and as prescribed, yet can suffer from withdrawal if they are removed. That is to be expected. It doesn't make them abusers. Your one pill a day person is probably taking his dose properly, as prescribed, for pain management, not specifically to stave off withdrawal. If he was an abuser, he'd be shopping for and taking more. If the med is no longer necessary for pain management, the provider should be titrating him off of it.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I've heard of that also but then I've also heard of people in desperate need of short term pain meds who were told to take Tylenol when they were in severe pain.

were those the patients with no Rx insurance?

I know of two. One was my sister who had a couple of shattered ribs and was in severe pain for several days. She had insurance but they wouldn't give her anything stronger than Tylenol 3. The other was the mother of a friend with severe rheumatoid arthritis. She's 86 and they suddenly cut way back on her pain meds.

 

[UncleMark]

She had insurance but they wouldn't give her anything stronger than Tylenol 3. The other was the mother of a friend with severe rheumatoid arthritis. She's 86 and they suddenly cut way back on her pain meds.

Between fear of the DEA and the current crisis, doctors don't know what to do. They were never given adequate training in pain management (and have learned that relying on the pharma reps will get them in trouble), and are now scared to properly prescribe for legitimate reasons.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

We don't disagree. Just wanted to make the point that being addicted technically isn't a bad thing. Chronic pain sufferers can and do take narcotic pain meds safely and as prescribed, yet can suffer from withdrawal if they are removed. That is to be expected. It doesn't make them abusers. Your one pill a day person is probably taking his dose properly, as prescribed, for pain management, not specifically to stave off withdrawal. If he was an abuser, he'd be shopping for and taking more. If the med is no longer necessary for pain management, the provider should be titrating him off of it.

Gotcha. I misunderstood you.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

i've lost 3 people i knew to ODs, 2 of them i knew well.

i don't think any of them started with prescribed pills.

no doubt many started with prescribed pain meds, but lets not pretend that's the only way people are getting hooked on H.

that said, now that we're here, what do we do with those currently hooked.

Btown can't let them take over E Kirkwood and S Walnut, and do 10-15 narcon ambulance runs every Friday.

you could give them a sanctuary place to use, but i'm guessing they wouldn't use it because they like E Kirkwood better, and they can beg there.

i'm about as libertarian as you can get regarding personal behavior, but after the 1st OD, i have no problem with incarcerating them in some confined area to play Russian roulette on a regular basis.

as for the future, i think legal pot and cracking down on pharma prescriptions will cut down future addictions a lot.

 

[IUclover]

a week ago there were i believe 10 overdoses and 1 or two deaths in Btown.

TEN, in one day!

many were on East Kirkwood, what should be a showcase area for Btown, and S. Walnut.

2 days ago, i believe there were 15.

15! in one day!

That number actually increased to 20 that day after the article was published. Witnessed one of them after having dinner on Kirkwood.