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Garland: Saudi Immunity for Khashoggi Murder

You're not far off. I'm out and about but I'll give you a proper response when I get home.

I'm not surprised you've never heard of it. Especially in business law. But any lawyer probably took at least one international law class, and knows what it is. You learn about it in chapter one.
The only “customary” international law I’m aware of is the frequency of public officials on the take and the. custom, , habit, and routine of paying bribes to get permits or other things done. American lawyers can’t be part of that, but we can hire local lawyers to do that.

Yeah, I had clients who did business in the Caribbean, Mexico, and Central America.

This immunity thing seems to apply to governmental relationships except when it doesn’t, (Noriega and a couple of Serbs).

A private civil action? Still haven’t seen anything convincing. There might be a question of federal jurisdiction over the Saudi, but that is different and hasn’t been part of the discussion.
 
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@DANC see Brad's longer response above. That says it all.
I read it. Here is the salient point, to me. And there is nothing that says immunity has to be granted, according to this.

"The State Department was not required to make a determination of immunity but was invited to do so by the court. A spokesperson said that their request that bin Salman be granted immunity is based on longstanding common and international law, rather than a reflection of current diplomatic ties or efforts.:
 
I read it. Here is the salient point, to me. And there is nothing that says immunity has to be granted, according to this.

"The State Department was not required to make a determination of immunity but was invited to do so by the court. A spokesperson said that their request that bin Salman be granted immunity is based on longstanding common and international law, rather than a reflection of current diplomatic ties or efforts.:
Yes, this was pretty much the only determination they could have reasonably made. It sucks, because MBS is a bad guy, but there are reasons we follow these international laws (mostly so other countries will follow them with our people).

As to your bolded part, I think that's a reflection of the fact that this particular type of immunity is the executive's purview, not the court's.
 
As to your bolded part, I think that's a reflection of the fact that this particular type of immunity is the executive's purview, not the court's.
Exactly the point I’ve made all day. This immunity is not the law. So, why would Biden impose it in a private civil action?

Relared: Do you think the executive decision binds the court?
 
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Ummm remember when Jared Helped whitewash this? And then ended up with two billion dollars? Trying to remember who was in office when it happened?
What about the current administration’s choice, since that’s what the thread is about?
 
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As a layman who took a business law class (almost makes me an expert), I've never heard of 'customary' law. I've heard of common law.

I mean, does it mean just because it's 'customary' that it's legal? Can you explain it further? Without a link - just in plain English so one of the unwashed like me can understand it?
Here's further to add to what Brad already posted.

There are basically two primary sources of international law: treaties and customs. Treaty law is that body of international obligations agreed to by signatories. Customary law is that body of international obligations developed by custom over time without actually being formally adopted by treaty. A lot of treaty law actually started as customary law. For example, the European powers had been gradually developing the laws of war before they sat down in Geneva and decided to put them on paper.

These customary laws don't need to be put in a treaty to be recognized by various states. Courts have in the past referred to it as the "law of nations" and applied it as a matter of course whenever there was not some statutory law passed to override it. For example, courts have applied the customary laws of the sea since long before anyone got together and codified them - famously this was one of the points of contention in the Amistad case.

However, Congress does have the power to pass statutes and limit customary law, and statutory law will rule when there is a disagreement. Congress has done this with some forms of immunity, such as state immunity. There's an exception for state immunity for extrajudicial killings, for example, which the killing of Khashoggi certainly was, so if someone wants to sue Saudi Arabia, I suppose they could make the argument immunity should be set aside.

However, the particular form of immunity here is foreign official immunity - previously called head of state immunity before it was extended to heads of government and foreign ministers - and it has not yet been codified/limited by Congress. Therefore, courts have long held that it is up to the executive to recognize who does and does not qualify for such immunity, and this immunity is absolute, under international customary law.

It is important to recognize that this immunity is 1) tied to the title, not the person, and 2) protects only from jurisdiction, not from liability. If MBS ordered Khashoggi's killing, that was illegal, and it remains illegal today. It's simply that, because he is now the Prime Minster, and recognized as the official Saudi head of government, no U.S. court can exercise jurisdiction over him. If something were to happen where he would lose his position, his immunity would disappear, but his potential liability for the killing would not.

The reason we have this immunity is similar to the reason we have immunity for ambassadors. Nations have long recognized that certain people need to be free to travel to foreign lands to conduct critical diplomacy, and so we extend absolute immunity to their people so that they will do the same to ours. The reason we don't let a U.S. court haul in MBS is because we don't want a court in Riyadh hauling in Joe Biden.
 
The only “customary” international law I’m aware of is the frequency of public officials on the take and the. custom, , habit, and routine of paying bribes to get permits or other things done. American lawyers can’t be part of that, but we can hire local lawyers to do that.

Yeah, I had clients who did business in the Caribbean, Mexico, and Central America.

This immunity thing seems to apply to governmental relationships except when it doesn’t, (Noriega and a couple of Serbs).

A private civil action? Still haven’t seen anything convincing. There might be a question of federal jurisdiction over the Saudi, but that is different and hasn’t been part of the discussion.
Check out private civil actions against OPEC for antitrust violations. State action doctrine of sovereign immunity has been held to destroy jurisdiction of U.S. courts.
 
Check out private civil actions against OPEC for antitrust violations. State action doctrine of sovereign immunity has been held to destroy jurisdiction of U.S. courts.
I should say: I find a lot of these claims bullshit and I'd love to hold Khashoggi (EDIT: MBS for Khashoggi) responsible. But even the monetary sanctions for the death would be de minimus for a Saudi prince.

Let's drill deeper on the bigger question: just how far should we go in dealing with bad regimes and how much should we give up as a nation to try to ensure justice?
 
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I should say: I find a lot of these claims bullshit and I'd love to hold Khashoggi responsible. But even the monetary sanctions for the death would be de minimus for a Saudi prince.

Let's drill deeper on the bigger question: just how far should we go in dealing with bad regimes and how much should we give up as a nation to try to ensure justice?
I think you meant "MBS" there, not "Khashoggi." But it's a valid question. Just because we are obligated by law to grant MBS immunity doesn't mean we need to play footsie with his regime.
 
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Yes, this was pretty much the only determination they could have reasonably made. It sucks, because MBS is a bad guy, but there are reasons we follow these international laws (mostly so other countries will follow them with our people).

As to your bolded part, I think that's a reflection of the fact that this particular type of immunity is the executive's purview, not the court's.
Right - it's Biden's choice. Not some law he has to follow.
 
It is a law, but we do always have a choice whether or not to follow the law. Not sure what your point is.
My point is that, as you said, Biden has a choice whether to follow the 'law', which isn't really a law, but, as you pointed out, a 'custom'.
 
It's still a law. Common law isn't codified, either, but it's still the law. Law is law, whatever form it comes in.
Is common law applicable to criminal acts?

I'm just asking. I'm not really making any point - I want to understand how the US can, or would, renounce any future action against a foreign official who commits a crime.
 
Is common law applicable to criminal acts?
No.

Common law is a body of judicial precedent used to resolve controversies between individuals or entities.

Remember the McDonalds hot coffee case? That is an example of common law. The jury decided if McDonald's was liable and what was just compensation. There was no statute.

That said, it is possible for the same conduct to be a violation of a statute and violation of common law standards. Most auto accidents fall into this category. .
 
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To answer my own question about Noriega. The US denied his immunity claim because. . . Just cuz.

In this case, the state department easily could say the Saudi’s head of state claim was a ruse. But it won’t. There is no obligation to recognize immunity.

From your link:

One of the reasons for the prosecution of Noriega included "the determination of the State Department that Noriega was not recognized as the head of Panama"

So there you go. That's the difference here.

Also, your link makes clear that Noriega challenged the jurisdiction of the court based on sovereign immunity.
 
To answer my own question about Noriega. The US denied his immunity claim because. . . Just cuz.

In this case, the state department easily could say the Saudi’s head of state claim was a ruse. But it won’t. There is no obligation to recognize immunity.

Thanks for answering your question. It seems like no one else wanted to address it.

So I have a question regarding common law. How and when is it recognized. When a group sets up an area and says they’re operating under common law, they are looked at as quacks.
 
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To answer my own question about Noriega. The US denied his immunity claim because. . . Just cuz.

In this case, the state department easily could say the Saudi’s head of state claim was a ruse. But it won’t. There is no obligation to recognize immunity.

Noriega was working for the CIA and the Cubans at the same time. That's just plain bad form and will guarantee someone will try to cancel one.
 
Thanks for answering your question. It seems like no one else wanted to address it.

So I have a question regarding common law. How and when is it recognized. When a group sets up an area and says they’re operating under common law, they are looked at as quacks.
Common law goes back centuries to England. It began as a means to settle disputes between monarchial subjects. The old citations are from the King’s Bench or Queen’s Bench.

We inherited that as did most other British Colonies.

France had a civil code which governed the same thing. Louisiana uses a civil code. California mostly does also, there it was an evolutionary process.

The importance of juries applying the common law has been under attack and diminished at all levels of government. The GOP does it because they don’t like trial lawyers and large jury verdicts, the Democrats do it because they regulate everything Leaving less room for juries to operate.

A good example today is guns. The GOP pushed for and obtained immunity legislation. Remove that and I think trial lawyers and juries applying the common law would be very effective gun control.
 
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From your link:

One of the reasons for the prosecution of Noriega included "the determination of the State Department that Noriega was not recognized as the head of Panama"

So there you go. That's the difference here.

Also, your link makes clear that Noriega challenged the jurisdiction of the court based on sovereign immunity.
Exactly my point. Noriega was a head of state. Our state department said he was not a legitimate head of state. Same thing with the Saudi. His office is a ruse.
 
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Thank you for stating the obvious. Maybe the lawyer who had never heard of customary law before yesterday should cool his arrogance, you think?
Never heard of customary law. Never cited it. Never briefed it. And you still haven’t made the case why a trial judge in an American Civil Court is bound by it when it depends on a non-judicial official making the call.

Oh, and your analogy to diplomatic immunity is BS.
 
Geeze Louise . . . .Did you read that?

First question at oral argument:

Mr Bradstevens, can you or your cleak, Mr Happygoat, cite any authority which binds this court to grant immunity in a private wrongful death civil action?

Second Question: Why is the Department of Justice appearing and whom do you represent?
Thank you for your questions, your honor.

Let me take your second question first: because you asked us to appear on behalf of the government. (See Post #36).

As to your first, the very same authority you were relying on to ask us whether head-of-state immunity applies here. Your honor, I'd refer you to the bench memo your clerk probably drafted for you, that might look something like this:

Head-of-state immunity is a doctrine of customary international law. Generally speaking, the doctrine maintains that a head of state is immune from the jurisdiction of a foreign state's courts, at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power. Like foreign sovereign immunity, head of state immunity is based upon the notion of comity between independent states. Any immunity enjoyed by a sitting head of state or retained by a former head of state belongs to the foreign sovereign and not the individual. Thus, head of state immunity may be waived by the foreign state.

The doctrine of head-of-state immunity is applied in the U.S. as a matter of customary international law and as an incident of the executive branch's authority in the field of foreign affairs. The U.S. Supreme Court first recognized this doctrine in The Schooner Exchange. This case, which held that an armed ship of a friendly state was not subject to jurisdiction in the U.S., came to be regarded as extending virtually absolute immunity to foreign sovereigns. Although the absolute immunity of foreign states has been affected by case law and by passage of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), the U.S. State Department retains the authority to assert immunity for diplomatic personnel, including foreign heads of state. Federal courts have continued to hold that foreign heads of state retain absolute immunity from suit in U.S. courts.

“Head of state immunity is not a common law privilege, but one that arises out of considerations of international comity. Any immunity granted to an alien within the borders of another country is a privilege granted by the receiving state. The extent of the immunity is informed by the receiving country's commitment to certain international compacts and by considerations of reciprocity. Head of state immunity has been afforded to foreign heads of state pursuant to a suggestion of immunity by the State Department. No independent judicial source for head of state immunity appears to exist.”[ Agapita Trajano v. Marcos, 1986 U.S. Dist. Lexis 22541 (D. Haw. 1986)].


My friend on the other side of the aisle might want to seize on the exception language--"at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power" since that exception appears to apply here. That is a murky area of the law, to be sure. But I'd remind you that: Saudi Arabia still sits on what in Latin is known as a shittus tonnus of oil, and that your honor [CoH] has previously correctly identified energy as one of the most important issues facing the world right now and so is a very important matter of U.S. foreign policy, over which the Constitution gives the Executive branch authority, not the Courts. The Executive branch has made its decision and this Court should honor that decision. Any accountability for this decision will lie with the people during the next election.

I cede the rest of my time to my co-counsel, SexyGoat.
 
Exactly my point. Noriega was a head of state. Our state department said he was not a legitimate head of state. Same thing with the Saudi. His office is a ruse.
You're wrong. Noriega was never the head of state of Panama, anymore than Soros or Ron Klain is now. The government rests its case.

Noriega preferred to remain behind the scenes, rather than become president, and to avoid the public scrutiny that came with the post. He did not have a particular social or economic ideology, and used military nationalism to unify his supporters.[64]
 
You're wrong. Noriega was never the head of state of Panama, anymore than Soros or Ron Klain is now. The government rests its case.

Noriega preferred to remain behind the scenes, rather than become president, and to avoid the public scrutiny that came with the post. He did not have a particular social or economic ideology, and used military nationalism to unify his supporters.[64]
And this is exactly why MBS was appointed Prime Minister. The immunity doesn't come with de facto power, but with de jure power.
 
Thank you for your questions, your honor.

Let me take your second question first: because you asked us to appear on behalf of the government. (See Post #36).

As to your first, the very same authority you were relying on to ask us whether head-of-state immunity applies here. Your honor, I'd refer you to the bench memo your clerk probably drafted for you, that might look something like this:

Head-of-state immunity is a doctrine of customary international law. Generally speaking, the doctrine maintains that a head of state is immune from the jurisdiction of a foreign state's courts, at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power. Like foreign sovereign immunity, head of state immunity is based upon the notion of comity between independent states. Any immunity enjoyed by a sitting head of state or retained by a former head of state belongs to the foreign sovereign and not the individual. Thus, head of state immunity may be waived by the foreign state.

The doctrine of head-of-state immunity is applied in the U.S. as a matter of customary international law and as an incident of the executive branch's authority in the field of foreign affairs. The U.S. Supreme Court first recognized this doctrine in The Schooner Exchange. This case, which held that an armed ship of a friendly state was not subject to jurisdiction in the U.S., came to be regarded as extending virtually absolute immunity to foreign sovereigns. Although the absolute immunity of foreign states has been affected by case law and by passage of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), the U.S. State Department retains the authority to assert immunity for diplomatic personnel, including foreign heads of state. Federal courts have continued to hold that foreign heads of state retain absolute immunity from suit in U.S. courts.

“Head of state immunity is not a common law privilege, but one that arises out of considerations of international comity. Any immunity granted to an alien within the borders of another country is a privilege granted by the receiving state. The extent of the immunity is informed by the receiving country's commitment to certain international compacts and by considerations of reciprocity. Head of state immunity has been afforded to foreign heads of state pursuant to a suggestion of immunity by the State Department. No independent judicial source for head of state immunity appears to exist.”[ Agapita Trajano v. Marcos, 1986 U.S. Dist. Lexis 22541 (D. Haw. 1986)].


My friend on the other side of the aisle might want to seize on the exception language--"at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power" since that exception appears to apply here. That is a murky area of the law, to be sure. But I'd remind you that: Saudi Arabia still sits on what in Latin is known as a shittus tonnus of oil, and that your honor [CoH] has previously correctly identified energy as one of the most important issues facing the world right now and so is a very important matter of U.S. foreign policy, over which the Constitution gives the Executive branch authority, not the Courts. The Executive branch has made its decision and this Court should honor that decision. Any accountability for this decision will lie with the people during the next election.

I cede the rest of my time to my co-counsel, SexyGoat.
As I believe my co-counsel has covered all the relevant points, I will only clarify that what has historically been called "head of state immunity" is often now referred to as "foreign official immunity," because it has been extended to heads of government and foreign ministers, as well. But we are still talking about the exact same immunity. Now, I'll sit back down, and be thankful that Brad did all the work so I can quietly collect my 30%.
 
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Thank you for your questions, your honor.

Let me take your second question first: because you asked us to appear on behalf of the government. (See Post #36).

As to your first, the very same authority you were relying on to ask us whether head-of-state immunity applies here. Your honor, I'd refer you to the bench memo your clerk probably drafted for you, that might look something like this:

Head-of-state immunity is a doctrine of customary international law. Generally speaking, the doctrine maintains that a head of state is immune from the jurisdiction of a foreign state's courts, at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power. Like foreign sovereign immunity, head of state immunity is based upon the notion of comity between independent states. Any immunity enjoyed by a sitting head of state or retained by a former head of state belongs to the foreign sovereign and not the individual. Thus, head of state immunity may be waived by the foreign state.

The doctrine of head-of-state immunity is applied in the U.S. as a matter of customary international law and as an incident of the executive branch's authority in the field of foreign affairs. The U.S. Supreme Court first recognized this doctrine in The Schooner Exchange. This case, which held that an armed ship of a friendly state was not subject to jurisdiction in the U.S., came to be regarded as extending virtually absolute immunity to foreign sovereigns. Although the absolute immunity of foreign states has been affected by case law and by passage of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), the U.S. State Department retains the authority to assert immunity for diplomatic personnel, including foreign heads of state. Federal courts have continued to hold that foreign heads of state retain absolute immunity from suit in U.S. courts.

“Head of state immunity is not a common law privilege, but one that arises out of considerations of international comity. Any immunity granted to an alien within the borders of another country is a privilege granted by the receiving state. The extent of the immunity is informed by the receiving country's commitment to certain international compacts and by considerations of reciprocity. Head of state immunity has been afforded to foreign heads of state pursuant to a suggestion of immunity by the State Department. No independent judicial source for head of state immunity appears to exist.”[ Agapita Trajano v. Marcos, 1986 U.S. Dist. Lexis 22541 (D. Haw. 1986)].


My friend on the other side of the aisle might want to seize on the exception language--"at least as to authorized official acts taken while the ruler is in power" since that exception appears to apply here. That is a murky area of the law, to be sure. But I'd remind you that: Saudi Arabia still sits on what in Latin is known as a shittus tonnus of oil, and that your honor [CoH] has previously correctly identified energy as one of the most important issues facing the world right now and so is a very important matter of U.S. foreign policy, over which the Constitution gives the Executive branch authority, not the Courts. The Executive branch has made its decision and this Court should honor that decision. Any accountability for this decision will lie with the people during the next election.

I cede the rest of my time to my co-counsel, SexyGoat.
“Thank you for your well-reasoned response counsel. I recognize the “customary” head of state immunity, and I further determine that this immunity is different and more limited than Diplomatic Immunity. Accordingly, i will find Head of State Immunity applies in this case upon the filing by the Country of Saudi Arabia, a sworn statement to the effect that ordering the death of a United Stares Citizen and Journalist for retaliatory purposes, as plaintiff avers, is an official and authorized state action.

We are in recess”.
 
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