First Positive Results..

[Mas-sa-suta]

Mas, the Ukranians shut it down AFTER the Russians invaded Crime.

That's just how wars are fought. The allies bombed Normandy and caused French casualties during WWII.

"Ukraine shut down the canal in 2014 soon after Russia annexed Crimea. Russia restored the flow of water in March 2022 during the Russian invasion of Ukraine."

North Crimean Canal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The People who lived there were considered Ukrainian, by Ukraine. Same as the Donbas. Victoria Nuland's pick for Dictator didn't speak much Ukrainian, but is a quick study. Noticed you didn't have much to say about the 8 years of indiscriminate shelling of primarily civilian areas prior to Russia's move. Selective moralizing?

 

[twenty02]

I bother with a lot of posters here who have been duped for years by the Democrat Party.

So you equate Democrats with Russian sympathizers? That's quite a sad indictment.

We could always have differences of opinion in this country when it came to domestic policy. Constant and consistent allying with foreign adversaries is an entirely different ball of wax. IMHO.

 

[DANC]

The People who lived there were considered Ukrainian, by Ukraine. Same as the Donbas. Victoria Nuland's pick for Dictator didn't speak much Ukrainian, but is a quick study. Noticed you didn't have much to say about the 8 years of indiscriminate shelling of primarily civilian areas prior to Russia's move. Selective moralizing?

What 8 years are you talking about? Between 2014 and 2022 when Russians had Little Green Men in Donbas - the same ones that downed a civilian jetliner? I already covered that above

The people who lived in Normandy were also considered French during WWII. By France.

 

[DANC]

So you equate Democrats with Russian sympathizers? That's quite a sad indictment.

We could always have differences of opinion in this country when it came to domestic policy. Constant and consistent allying with foreign adversaries is an entirely different ball of wax. IMHO.

I equate Democrats during the last 4 years of spreading more propaganda than Putin, yes. And plenty bought it.

There has always been differences of opinion about getting involved in foreign wars. Always. And you're not a traitor if you disagree with the direction your country is going. That makes you a free American, exercising your 1st Amendment rights.

Why are you trying to silence people? I'd rather discuss facts with them.

 

[twenty02]

I equate Democrats during the last 4 years of spreading more propaganda than Putin, yes. And plenty bought it.

There has always been differences of opinion about getting involved in foreign wars. Always. And you're not a traitor if you disagree with the direction your country is going. That makes you a free American, exercising your 1st Amendment rights.

Why are you trying to silence people? I'd rather discuss facts with them.

Stay on topic. What propaganda do you think the Biden admin spread regarding Ukraine?

 

[DANC]

Stay on topic. What propaganda do you think the Biden admin spread regarding Ukraine?

I'm 100% on topic. Why are you moving the goal posts?

I didn't say anything about Biden lying about Ukraine. I said Democrats spread more propaganda than Putin. And plenty of people believed it.

What else Democrats are lying about — Part 4: Most things - Washington Examiner

To close our four-part series, we show that the litany of Democratic lies is very, very long indeed. Abortion, Israel, tax cuts: You name it. They lie.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

What top Democrats said about collusion, pre-Mueller report

Republicans have been having a field day rubbing the Democrats’ noses in the outcome of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s

www.politifact.com

 

[twenty02]

I'm 100% on topic. Why are you moving the goal posts?

I didn't say anything about Biden lying about Ukraine. I said Democrats spread more propaganda than Putin. And plenty of people believed it.

What else Democrats are lying about — Part 4: Most things - Washington Examiner

To close our four-part series, we show that the litany of Democratic lies is very, very long indeed. Abortion, Israel, tax cuts: You name it. They lie.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

What top Democrats said about collusion, pre-Mueller report

Republicans have been having a field day rubbing the Democrats’ noses in the outcome of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s

www.politifact.com

So we're discussing foreign policy and your response is a bunch of opposition to domestic policy spats?

You equate Democrats as worse than Putin.

Enough said

 

[DANC]

So we're discussing foreign policy and your response is a bunch of opposition to domestic policy spats?

Changing the goal posts? I don't think you understand what propaganda is.

Obviously, you didn't read either link I posted.

I don't know why I bother.

 

[BradStevens]

But the US during WW2 held elections, as well as during the second Civil War, and Vietnam. The cross dressing comedian knows better than to conduct any kind of referendum on his leadership.

OK, I'll bite: "second Civil War?"

 

[twenty02]

Changing the goal posts? I don't think you understand what propaganda is.

Obviously, you didn't read either link I posted.

I don't know why I bother.

You posted two links about hyper partisan domestic policy political arguments. And what point are you making?

That has to do with Ukraine how?

 

[DANC]

You posted two links about hyper partisan domestic policy political arguments. And what point are you making?

I will only interact with people who are interested in actually discussing something - not someone who can't understand simple arguments.

 

[twenty02]

I will only interact with people who are interested in actually discussing something - not someone who can't understand simple arguments.

Why don't you explain what argument you are even making? You seem very lost.

So far you've claimed that Democrats espouse more propaganda than Putin. At the same time you've spent years arguing basically for the Biden admin position of supporting Ukraine.

Maybe you're just very confused, not knowing which way is up.

 

[CriticArisen]

If I look at this without politics then I see a cycle of Ukraine asking for a name brand weapons system to eject the invaders but the weapons system is provided at great expense but no impact on evicting the invaders. There was the break dancing HIMARS, ATACMS, Abram’s, and latest F15’s. The GPS guided munitions were easily jammed. Abram’s was a disaster with two $10,000,000 tanks as soon as operational by cheap drones and were withdrawn from combat. They re entered combat I believe and about half destroyed now. The first F15 was shot down by friendly fire. The purpose of weapons is not to be shiny tech but first and foremost to be effective on the battlefield. I read about UK trainers that were with a Ukrainian artillery unit and each round on the system they were training was about $100k. The Ukrainians were using them like RPG's and when the Brits tried to get it under control they had to go for sidearms.

The purpose of weapons systems is to be effective on the battlefield not to be shiny high tech very expensive systems that are awe inspiring in promos but easily defeated by much cheaper systems on the battlefield. The weapons acquisition system needs to be revamped and I agree that the revolving door needs to be nailed shut.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If I look at this without politics then I see a cycle of Ukraine asking for a name brand weapons system to eject the invaders but the weapons system is provided at great expense but no impact on evicting the invaders. There was the break dancing HIMARS, ATACMS, Abram’s, and latest F15’s. The GPS guided munitions were easily jammed. Abram’s was a disaster with two $10,000,000 tanks as soon as operational by cheap drones and were withdrawn from combat. They re entered combat I believe and about half destroyed now. The first F15 was shot down by friendly fire. The purpose of weapons is not to be shiny tech but first and foremost to be effective on the battlefield. I read about UK trainers that were with a Ukrainian artillery unit and each round on the system they were training was about $100k. The Ukrainians were using them like RPG's and when the Brits tried to get it under control they had to go for sidearms.

The purpose of weapons systems is to be effective on the battlefield not to be shiny high tech very expensive systems that are awe inspiring in promos but easily defeated by much cheaper systems on the battlefield. The weapons acquisition system needs to be revamped and I agree that the revolving door needs to be nailed shut.

We are not sending our frontline stuff. We are sending equipment that is scheduled to be decommissioned and scrapped. 2nd, our equipment is designed to fight in the US style of fighting, which among other things requires air superiority. Ukraine doesn't have that.

Lastly, look at numbers. Look how many Russian tanks have been destroyed vs Ukrainian, Russian planes vs Ukrainian, Russian casualties vs Ukrainian. Our strategy has been since 1941 "steel not flesh". We expect steel losses to preserve human life. Looking at Russian casualties, they use flesh and not steel.

 

[CriticArisen]

We are not sending our frontline stuff. We are sending equipment that is scheduled to be decommissioned and scrapped. 2nd, our equipment is designed to fight in the US style of fighting, which among other things requires air superiority. Ukraine doesn't have that.

Lastly, look at numbers. Look how many Russian tanks have been destroyed vs Ukrainian, Russian planes vs Ukrainian, Russian casualties vs Ukrainian. Our strategy has been since 1941 "steel not flesh". We expect steel losses to preserve human life. Looking at Russian casualties, they use flesh and not steel.

It doesn’t matter. Military objectives have not been achieved. That is all that matters.

If you want to start on top drawer systems not provided to Ukraine be glad to.

 

[Mark Milton]

Gonzalo Lira, American journalist, says' hold my...'.oh wait..he can't say anything. He died miserably in a Ukrainian prison....he posted critical memes of the little cross dresser...

Weird how you never condem the Russian arrests of American citizens. I mean we all know you are completely bonkers, but your silence is deafening in this regard.

 

[Mark Milton]

We are not sending our frontline stuff. We are sending equipment that is scheduled to be decommissioned and scrapped. 2nd, our equipment is designed to fight in the US style of fighting, which among other things requires air superiority. Ukraine doesn't have that.

Lastly, look at numbers. Look how many Russian tanks have been destroyed vs Ukrainian, Russian planes vs Ukrainian, Russian casualties vs Ukrainian. Our strategy has been since 1941 "steel not flesh". We expect steel losses to preserve human life. Looking at Russian casualties, they use flesh and not steel.

Nobody is getting our top end stuff. I'm good with that.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It doesn’t matter Military objectives have not been achieved. That is all that matters.

If you want to start on top drawer systems not provided to Ukraine be glad to.

What is the objective of our aid It is ridiculous to think Ukraine is going to reconquer their lost ground. That's like the mouse attacking the lion and retaking its lost home. Ukraine would be a 100% subsidiary of russia without our aid. Most of Ukraine is still independent. Our aid is doing exactly what I expected it to.

And, if you look, Ukraine owns about 1000 square miles of Russia. So somewhere our aid did defeat Russian forces causing Russia to lose ground. And many North Koreans are dying trying to retake it.

 

[CriticArisen]

What is the objective of our aid It is ridiculous to think Ukraine is going to reconquer their lost ground. That's like the mouse attacking the lion and retaking its lost home. Ukraine would be a 100% subsidiary of russia without our aid. Most of Ukraine is still independent. Our aid is doing exactly what I expected it to.

And, if you look, Ukraine owns about 1000 square miles of Russia. So somewhere our aid did defeat Russian forces causing Russia to lose ground. And many North Koreans are dying trying to retake it.

Russia controls about 42,000 sq miles of corresponding land.


But glad to see your objectives have been satisfied and so peace settlement should be no problem.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Russia controls about 42,000 sq miles of corresponding land.


But glad to see your objectives have been satisfied and so peace settlement should be no problem.

You are right, there should be a settlement. I am wondering, what settlement is Putin offering? Maybe you can share his magnanimous gesture with us.

 

[CriticArisen]

What is the objective of our aid It is ridiculous to think Ukraine is going to reconquer their lost ground. That's like the mouse attacking the lion and retaking its lost home. Ukraine would be a 100% subsidiary of russia without our aid. Most of Ukraine is still independent. Our aid is doing exactly what I expected it to.

And, if you look, Ukraine owns about 1000 square miles of Russia. So somewhere our aid did defeat Russian forces causing Russia to lose ground. And many North Koreans are dying trying to retake it.

it was claimed by Ukraine in August that they controlled 1000 sq km’s so 398 sq miles. I don’t know if the claims are true that Russia has retaken about 64% of that.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

it was claimed by Ukraine in August that they controlled 1000 sq km’s so 398 sq miles. I don’t know if the claims are true that Russia has retaken about 64% of that.

You are correct, I didn't take into account the retaking.

Yet what terms has Putin offered? What reasonable deal has Ukraine turned down?

 

[CriticArisen]

You are right, there should be a settlement. I am wondering, what settlement is Putin offering? Maybe you can share his magnanimous gesture

This is all I know from the Swiss summit.

On Friday, Mr Putin claimed he would agree to a ceasefire if Ukraine withdrew troops from four regions which Russia partially occupies and claims to have annexed.

Andriy Yermak, chief of staff to Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, told the BBC at the Swiss summit that there would be "no compromise on independence, sovereignty or territorial integrity".

No reason to be nasty.

Also-the Russians claim to have retaken 64% of the 398 sq miles and is being reported in the Kiev press without rebuttal.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This is all I know from the Swiss summit.

On Friday, Mr Putin claimed he would agree to a ceasefire if Ukraine withdrew troops from four regions which Russia partially occupies and claims to have annexed.

Andriy Yermak, chief of staff to Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, told the BBC at the Swiss summit that there would be "no compromise on independence, sovereignty or territorial integrity".

No reason to be nasty.

Also-the Russians claim to have retaken 64% of the 398 sq miles and is being reported in the Kiev press without rebuttal.

So Ukraine has to give up MORE Ukrainian ground. No guarantees about the future. No reparations for a war started by Moscow. Just hand over more ground and we will have a ceasefire (not a treaty, a ceasefire). Without western aid, Russia will rebuild its army and take another bite of the apple.

If Japan offered us a ceasefire on December 8, should we have taken it. I mean we spent a lot of money in that war as that seems to be everyone's chief concern these days.

 

[CriticArisen]

So Ukraine has to give up MORE Ukrainian ground. No guarantees about the future. No reparations for a war started by Moscow. Just hand over more ground and we will have a ceasefire (not a treaty, a ceasefire). Without western aid, Russia will rebuild its army and take another bite of the apple.

If Japan offered us a ceasefire on December 8, should we have taken it. I mean we spent a lot of money in that war as that seems to be everyone's chief concern these days.

What do you suggest be done?

 

[DANC]

Why don't you explain what argument you are even making? You seem very lost.

So far you've claimed that Democrats espouse more propaganda than Putin. At the same time you've spent years arguing basically for the Biden admin position of supporting Ukraine.

Maybe you're just very confused, not knowing which way is up.

I hope you woke up sober and realize what a stupid post you made.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

What do you suggest be done?

I would begin by stopping the lies about Zelinsky and work to strengthen his negotiating position rather than weakening it.

 

[CriticArisen]

I would begin by stopping the lies about Zelinsky and work to strengthen his negotiating position rather than weakening it.

How would you strengthen his negotiating position? After three years of bloody conflict BS doesn’t have any firepower at this point.

 

[DANC]

How would you strengthen his negotiating position? After three years of bloody conflict BS doesn’t have any firepower at this point.

I would ask the Ukrainians what they think they need and go from there.

 

[CriticArisen]

I would ask the Ukrainians what they think they need and go from there.

We gave the weapons they said they needed. I believe they know the only thing that will help are nuclear weapons and some comments in Ukraine to that effect. Would you do that?

 

[BradStevens]

So Ukraine has to give up MORE Ukrainian ground. No guarantees about the future. No reparations for a war started by Moscow. Just hand over more ground and we will have a ceasefire (not a treaty, a ceasefire). Without western aid, Russia will rebuild its army and take another bite of the apple.

If Japan offered us a ceasefire on December 8, should we have taken it. I mean we spent a lot of money in that war as that seems to be everyone's chief concern these days.

Marv, I’m agnostic on this so bear me out.

It seems like a reasonable position to say there are roughly three (bad) options: (1) do a peace deal now-ish and give Russia what they want, or (2) commit NATO troops (including us) to the war and weaken Russia to the point they will relinquish Ukrainian territory, or (3) do nothing and have both sides continue to fight over that land.

The first one prevents bloodshed for the foreseeable future and is relatively certain. The other two ensure more deaths with uncertain results.

Do you see it this way?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What do you suggest be done?

I made it somewhere here earlier. The ground Russia now has is made an independent country and a demilitarized zone. Right of return for any Ukrainians that want to go back, or any in the regions that want to head west. The area is a UN protectorate. Russia pays Ukraine to build a defensive position so another bite at the apple is much harder. Being defensive, fortifications, mines, and like, it can't be used to attack the newly created state. The rationale is that Ukraine has lost its mineral wealth in that new country. The money can come from that country's sale of resources if need be.

 

[DANC]

We gave the weapons they said they needed. I believe they know the only thing that will help are nuclear weapons and some comments in Ukraine to that effect. Would you do that?

No, they wanted longer range weapons and we restricted the use of what we gave them.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Marv, I’m agnostic on this so bear me out.

It seems like a reasonable position to say there are roughly three (bad) options: (1) do a peace deal now-ish and give Russia what they want, or (2) commit NATO troops (including us) to the war and weaken Russia to the point they will relinquish Ukrainian territory, or (3) do nothing and have both sides continue to fight over that land.

The first one prevents bloodshed for the foreseeable future and is relatively certain. The other two ensure more deaths with uncertain results.

Do you see it this way?

Russia has the power also to prevent more bloodshed. She could call off the war and go home. That is option 4.

So we decide Russia has a madman for leader and option 4 cannot work. Than your 3 options are what is left. But we have to then ask, is giving a madman exactly what he wants a good precedent to set? It is what OBL expected, some bloodshed and America will leave the ME. It is what Hitler expected of Britain, a defeat in France and she'll surrender. It is what Japan expected, the cost of fighting Japan would be too high so the US will come to the table.

I'm all for putting pressure on Ukraine to give SOME ground. But once we declare the west will always give up ground for peace, where will it end?

 

[CriticArisen]

No, they wanted longer range weapons and we restricted the use of what we gave them.

You may know more than I do but in November it was reported that permission was given by the US and I believe some European countries gave it earlier. The consensus in US intelligence that was reported was that there would be no positive impact for Ukraine. This is a good summary.

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-lifts-ban-ukraine-using-us-arms-strike-inside-russia-2024-11-17/

 

[CriticArisen]

I made it somewhere here earlier. The ground Russia now has is made an independent country and a demilitarized zone. Right of return for any Ukrainians that want to go back, or any in the regions that want to head west. The area is a UN protectorate. Russia pays Ukraine to build a defensive position so another bite at the apple is much harder. Being defensive, fortifications, mines, and like, it can't be used to attack the newly created state. The rationale is that Ukraine has lost its mineral wealth in that new country. The money can come from that country's sale of resources if need be.

My question was predicated on your comment that the Russian position wasn’t reasonable. So what would you do if the Russians maintain their position and won’t accept your plan?

 

[Courtsensetwo]

How would you strengthen his negotiating position? After three years of bloody conflict BS doesn’t have any firepower at this point.

If Trump is as good as he claims (and he does have chips), simply put them at the table with concessions both ways and get it done. Make sure there is a penalty to pay for the side that says no.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

My question was predicated on your comment that the Russian position wasn’t reasonable. So what would you do if the Russians maintain their position and won’t accept your plan?

Then you continue to erode the russian military via training and support plus tighten the economic noose.

 

[CriticArisen]

If Trump is as good as he claims (and he does have chips), simply put them at the table with concessions both ways and get it done. Make sure there is a penalty to pay for the side that says no.

Let’s hope

 

[Marvin the Martian]

My question was predicated on your comment that the Russian position wasn’t reasonable. So what would you do if the Russians maintain their position and won’t accept your plan?

Negotiation. They will not accept it. But like Ukraine cannot get all she wants, Russia cannot.