I think that's grumpy old man talk. Teams like Lville, UVA, and TX Tech play with discipline and great effort. I don't care what motivational technique they use, as long as we get positive results. And there are tons of examples in other sports. Yes, the days of hitting players, screaming at them and showing them shit-stained toilet paper are gone, but there are many coaches getting their teams to play tough disciplined ball and that's what you are really looking for, right?
Durham ejection was the beginning of the end...
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I think that's grumpy old man talk. Teams like Lville, UVA, and TX Tech play with discipline and great effort. I don't care what motivational technique they use, as long as we get positive results. And there are tons of examples in other sports. Yes, the days of hitting players, screaming at them and showing them shit-stained toilet paper are gone, but there are many coaches getting their teams to play tough disciplined ball and that's what you are really looking for, right?
perhaps, but the successful programs seem to have an identity that permeates from the coach. Take MSU, for example. They’ve always seemed (under Izzo) to have a certain toughness. A blue collar, lunch pail mentality. Perhaps it’s just an image I have, but to me it’s seems to be more. A culture, an identity, whatever you want to call it. Their team seems to reflect Izzo, and his personality. But, for that to occur you need “buy in” from the players. Building a culture takes time, but if you don’t have that buy in from the players time won’t matter as much.
with our team, I get sick of the excuses that fans make. I am sick about hearing about the crean players. In Miller season 1 we supposedly had the worst group of senior guards (RJ and Newkirk). in the history of sports. Everything would be solved just by them leaving. Last season we seemed to be split Into 2 divisive forces. This season I expected unity, fight, toughness. I expected better leadership. I expected a team that would play with a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.
Last season we saw that deer in the headlights look quite a bit. And miller, to me, had lost the team during stretches of the year.
We’ve seen flashes of that again. It almost seems like we have kids that just have a tendency to play to their own agenda, but the coach is ultimately responsible.
I can tell you this much. If we had Izzo in our locker room and he said “listen to what I say, do what I say and you will compete for a B 10 title and have a shot at a final 4” the kids would do what he says. Why shouldn’t they believe him, he’s proven himself?
I once heard a coach say that a team needed players. That a team needed a coach with a system. And that the players needed to buy into the system for it to succeed. We’ve been a Jeckle and Hyde team. Do we have the buy in, and are all the players and staff on the same page?
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of something a bit more subtle, yet at the same time, biting into the very essence of one's core fiber, something like a Kotex secretly placed in a player's locker for him to find, in suggestion that he needs to toughen up and play more to his potential, being the man that he truly is. Sadly, this little used, yet effective, motivational technique has probably fallen out of favor in these more updated times, although it did inspire Landon Turner. That said, do that today and there would probably be a bunch of protesters blocking the entrance to Assembly Hall, perhaps the Bloomington coalition of Dykes On Bikes group...yeh, something like that to bitch about from the morality police as cruel and unusual punishment, sexually demeaning to only those seeking needed attention.
Well, I'm sorry then but I do declare, I believe I detect some sort of regionality in his speech pattern. Actually, I minored in Speech Pathology at the post graduate level, but that doesn't make me an expert in regional dialect as I do realize some things here. Personally, I've always found that when I go far from Indiana, strangers like waitresses and things will occasionally inquire what part of the south I'm from and all I can do is sheepishly mutter that it is my "Hoosier twang" thing. Of course, there's always the possibility that they're just "hitting" on me and in that case, I've been known to take a punch or two. Part of the "problem" may lie in the fact...well, it truly was a problem in high school because my teacher in Public Speaking left this critique - "It's 'just', not 'jist'" and I don't say this in jest.
I'm not making excuses, I'm saying there are plenty of coaches, Izzo being one although he's not been nearly as successful in the last decade, who do succeed without being the "bad-ass" type RMK coach that so many seem to want. You can have your Kotex, I'll take K's methods, or Dabo Swinney, Saban or Popovich, etc..... I agree it is a culture, and while not accepting excuses (it should not take more than 3 years at a school with IU's resources), I do believe there is a night and day difference in what Crean wanted in players, vs what Archie wants. I'd also say that most of my complaints about current players (Green, Durham, Smith and Davis) do rest with Crean recruits. Still, Archie hasn't exactly laid out a clear path for that culture or his "style" of play or recruit. That's OK too, if he's a quiet leader like Pop or Bennett, etc... but the clock is ticking. Personally, I think barring extenuating circumstances which I don't see right now, if we haven't made the tourney after 3 years, we should move on. I think a change in the AD makes that unlikely, but I'm also not giving up on this team. The talent is there, and I really think they just need confidence in themselves. The FT shooting to me shows a lack of confidence... as does the poor decision making, timidness, etc.... This group should be much more confident and better than they are. All I know is that it needs to change. Personally, I also think Archie goofed by not finding another guard, especially one who can shoot consistently, and next years' class to me is very incomplete. We have 3 mid-level wings and no PG, which I believe we need and no post, which I also think that class needs. We don't need RMK II, but I do agree we need a Coach who develops his style and culture of winning.
I know when I came back to IN after several years down here and laid a "y'all" on my friends, they all about shat themselves and apparently I now sound very "southern". I agree Archie has a unique speech pattern, and maybe it was influenced by his time at NC St, but it doesn't sound Southern to me at all. I recall growing up the word was IN was a popular state for broadcasters because it was dialect neutral, and Jane Pauley and Dave Letterman were supposed to be examples, but I've also heard alot of people say IN folks do have a bit of a southern sound. Personally, I think it's just more country than anything.
1. I wasn’t saying that you were making excuses. You are one of the more reasoned posters here.
2. I also wasn’t saying anything about a specific way to motivate people. I agree with you, I want results and the motivational method doesn’t matter to me.
To get to what we both want :
“Coach who develops his style and culture of winning”
we need players that will buy in. I mentioned Izzo b/c I think he gets that. He has their respect and trust. It’s not about whether he yells, or gets in kids faces.
I would say it was the frustration of being behind, losing the lead and not being able to get the ball to do something about it.
TJD "gets it". He understands more than the more experienced players that only started paying attention to IU after they were recruited. You won't see him laughing in the huddle at the end of a game down 5.
I’m not sure Izzo is the best example here, as his intensity level is off the charts and defining of the MSU culture that began under Jud. Players can and do take that kind of hard coaching, even in today’s day and age. Calipari is similarly intense, and Sean Miller and Bill Self can be, as well. That just doesn’t seem to be Miller’s mode.
As for moving on after three years if IU misses the tournament, that’s not happening. After four years it would be a possibility but there’s no chance unless he cheats or there’s a player issue that no one knows about.
I didn't say I believed it would happen, in fact I think it's highly unlikely, I just said I think it probably should as 3 years to me is enough time to win at a program like IU.
Interesting "copy and paste" from his wiki page....
Early years and playing career
Miller was born and raised in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, just northwest of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. His given name is "Ryan" but garnered the nickname "Archie" at an early age due to his personality being similar to that of Archie Bunker, the grouchy TV character, from All in the Family.[1]
He was born and raised in Joe Namath's hometown. Perhaps his dialect is Pennsylvania mountain inspired, although I don't recall Namath being of such canted verbiage.
With the history of his nickname, it makes me wonder if he voted for Trump. I'll just leave it at that without further discussion, after the hell-storm it created shortly after the end of 2016 when I pondered how Archie and his wife might adapt to the mostly ultra-liberally based residents of Bloomington, IN. It doesn't seem to bother Bob Knight one way or the other, so it probably doesn't bother Ryan...excuse, me "ARCH-I-E-E-E!"
He was nicknamed Archie because his family felt he was particularly grouchy much of the time.
Northern Indiana is a lot different than Southern Indiana. My wife and I are from Southern Indiana and we believe that we have lost our twang over the years. When we visited family down south we thought they sounded very southern especially after living first in Kokomo and then in Northern Indiana. When I was a student at Moody in Chicago I was talking to a man as we were waiting for the L train and he said he thought I was from Arkansas at first.
"laughing in the huddle...down 5".....thank you for bringing this up. I have seen too many times, over the past 5-10 yrs, this very behavior, and every time I see it, it stops me in my tracks and makes me realize that the kids wearing the team jersey care less about the outcome of this game than the 52 yr old has-been watching from 300 miles away.
Some of us old timers know what our coaches would have done if they witnessed such behavior when we played. Losing is supposed to piss you off. I know I've been pissed off since roughly the 8 minute mark of the AK game second half. My wife said I was screaming 'feed the post godammit!!" in my sleep all night.
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This season, pound the rock inside, score and draw fouls.
It’s the new paradigm, “The Snowflake Effect”. College kids today grew up playing sports in knowledge that there would always be a trophy at the end of the season, to help assure that no one’s self esteem would be compromised. The only difference being that one team’s members got a slightly taller trophy.
Not what I have seen. Attended junior high basketball games and have never seen a participation trophy. Friend is a coach of baseball and basketball. He hasn't seen one either. That is in Dayton Ohio area.
Back in the good ole days, I received a high school athletic letter from Bosse in Evansville. Was in the Audio Visual club. Worked for most home football and track games and pep assemblies. The symbol in the middle of the letter was a microphone...kind of looked like a corn cob. Maybe it was..heh. Is that a participation trophy?
You probably won't believe this, but the guy actually said I was cool to talk to. When I mentioned that I was from Southern Indiana not too far from where Larry Bird grew up he said, "Yeah, you sound like Larry".
It is also related to the bar that is set. If you have a HS football program that has been to the state finals three years in a row and they lose in the quarter finals you will see plenty of devastated/PO’d kids.
Where is our bar set?
Kids can get used to winning and they can get used to losing.
this is a team that is frustrating to watch. Last year, this year.....frustrating. Had we just not completely forgotten how to play basketball for those last 8 minutes on Sunday, we’d likely be 11-0 in NC play, and possibly in the top 25. Last bracketology that I saw (12/23) had us as a 6 seed. There is no reason that this shouldn’t be a top 6 NCAA seeded team.
we just have to stop those spells where we completely look lost.
Maryland doesn’t scare me. TheU didn’t last year, and they don’t this year. We had them on the ropes last year, then that other IU team reared it’s ugly head.
When I coached, I could predict how we would play based on how the players warmed up. Without exception, if they were blocking each others shots or goofing off, they played bad. I started calling players over to the side and told them they were bothering the preparations of the serious players that wanted to focus and have a good game. If they didn't settle down, I sat them down and didn't let them warm up. I only played them when I had to. They learned.
Davis knows better. Even if it is unlikely he would get back in the game, he knows to act like he is ready to play. He was signalling to me that he didn't want to play. I'll be disappointed if he plays against Maryland.
Yeah, I thought it was cool listening to Dustin Hoffman talk in Rain Man too!
(and before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I'm just busting VPM's chops AOTF-style!)
What I've always understood is that southern Indiana was settled mostly from Virginia & Kentucky, while Northern Indiana was settled mostly from Ohio, PA, New York.......To take it one step further, Southern Indiana was ex-Scotland, Northern Indiana ex-English & German.
We may have the worst combination.....a grouchy coach who won't hold players accountable.....
Hmmmm...."feed the post godammit" may have have a subtle, underlying meaning in that context.....
But back to the point.......one year I coached a bunch of kids in a local church league. They took it worse if they lost than does our current team. Taking out Durham and the freshmen, I've never seen such a passionless bunch. They look sullen when they lose and mildly pleased but mostly indifferent when they win.
I think instead of taking on Miller's personality, Miller has taken on their personality.
My ancestor on my father's side came from South Carolina. Our family was originally Scottish, though I am like most Americans, a mut. You are correct in the majority of migration. There was a large polish group that moved up towards the Warsaw area,but you do see a lot of German influence up there.
funny..I almost worked in a reference to participation trophies in my original post.....everyone's a winner...until you become an adult and have to pay your own taxes.
Kids now vote for free stuff. They don't understand that they will just make less money in their own pocket to pay for their own free stuff. Nothing is free.
Yeah, right. dws
Durham was out. Stupid move by an experienced team captain. Green throws the ball away and wastes more possessions. Really, now is when Miller should sit them and put in...who?
It really is easy to second guess. And to throw out rhetorical negative statements.
Who then should go in to replace Green? By the way, since IU has a lack of upperclassmen and those are our captains...and Davis is on the bench doing his thing...and Hunter is out...and Phin isn't at 100%...gee, lots of choices...maybe Smith? Oh he is in. Race? He just is standing there staring...
Let's blame Archie, again. Easy to do.
Let's get rid of Archie so that we can emphasize the fact that Indiana loves to turn over coaches every 3 or 4 years. Great idea. dws
Anyone wanna see second prize?......Second prize is a set of stake knives.
Third prize is....you're fired.
A.B.C. Always Be Closing.
I can be fastidiously facetious at odd times and way. When I was playing Little League baseball, at the end of the season bear with me, each member of our team was surprised in receiving a 4” plastic trophy proclaiming the Indians “Second-half of the Season” Little League Champions. Unbeknownst to everyone but the coaches, we had the best overall record for a portion of the season we never realized when it was halfway over anyway, with nary Hey, You!” or nary “Who?” Virtually everyone associated with Fall Creek LL, including their hang-er-on-ers, knew the Reds were clearly season champs, for they were the team with the only coach who yelled at the kids when they screwed up. Most coaches of all, drew the line at guffaw. You see, for the Reds...god, it hurts, for them, they were a very serious team, one of little laughter seen for kids at such game. It was not one of just serious game, but one with equal-serious talent, talent that we say “Got Game” today. Little did I know way back in time, this time in 1962, it would be the only trophy I received in life (I assume, sitting here from the friendly confines of my fat ass 58 years later).
This is where the real sadness starts with a new paragraph. I lost it in my 1996 apartment fire. The trophy, albeit only second half (not physically, just of the total season that really counts) was lost, permanently, between wives #’s 1 and 2 (now on #3, for those who enjoy counting numbers of the “matrimonially recycled”, I believe is the correct usage today. That accounts for the midlife crises...excuse me, the midlife WIFE, divorced, as reason for the midlife apartment of more modest means appearance. Anyway, to make a human (non)interest story shorter in a bit longer, Snowflakes today need to know that life, like crystallized water vapor, is fleeting and it’s really not about trophies received, but trophies given. The most cherished trophy is the first one, especially when it’s the only one.
This is a true story continued from above, the part to become the whole or I’ll half you, not-I’m Facebook friends with the coach’s son, only because we were teammates in LL ( it doesn’t take much when you’re trying to impress your true friends with how many FB “friends“ one has-somehow anybody who then makes everybody, has somehow managed to garner enough acceptance in today’s all-about-we world of make believe.) and just to reunite long enough to drop him a private message to let him know how much I appreciated all the hours his dad and Mr Faulk (his assistant or co-coach...it was always kind of warm and fuzzy and they didn’t seem to want to talk about it much) put in with us kids and of course, his subsequent bestowment of my lonely/only trophy in life, but a trophy none the less of any other fruitless consequences. This is where the private message stopped.
I never told him several of my teammates came up to me later that summer to say they thought I should have made the All-Star Team instead of the coach’s chosen son, the appointed one. I was okay with it. I knew how it worked and little did they know that I had always hoped I wouldn’t make the All-Star team because my family was scheduled for vacation during the “Really Big Game” and I was about to miss it (most would say, NOT about to miss it). I cared more about the beaches of the Outer Banks than I did any further crack at honored stardom-I HAD my trophy and I was moving on! Then I lost it, (up in smoke for those of shortened recall not previously identified as such) like I said they’d always say, not just any day, but this game day, the same day you’ve just been played.
“Go Hoosiers!” We don’t just wanna bowl, we wanna WIN!
Oh, I would totally agree on that. When you get up in the "Region" area, where I went to law school or close to southern Michigan … I was totally told I have a southern drawl, which if anyone from southern IN told me, which they don't, I'd say "you're nuts". I don't, in my mind, but they hear something when I go up just that north that I don't consider myself to have, especially when I live in a place where I do hear it in other people.
I gave this a like, because I totally agree: there's no one to put in, unless you're OK with sacrificing a possible W to make that point to ONE player. Also, I'm not bothering checking, but I think he was already reacting to this because I would guess Damezi played more than his share of normal minutes... he just seemed to be on the floor more this game to me; especially for what he contributed which to my recollection was very little.
However, I don't agree with your last point. Short of Kelvin Sampson who did it to himself, what coach have we gotten rid of in 3-4 years? CAM would be the first in my lifetime, unless you count Sampson.
I don't like the participation trophy idea. And I don't buy into the concept that all kids today suffer from getting participation trophies. I think that may be a flawed theory.
But I will say that while excellence is a great concept, not everyone can win. In fact, very few who are involved in sports can come out on top.
So, in many people's eyes, maybe winning is not where their life is going to be. Maybe good sportsmanship and effort and improvement are also great characteristics. Maybe being good in many other areas is ok. Why does the military give out good conduct medals? Why do the Olympics also give out medals to 2nd and 3rd place? Why does the County Fair give out red and green and yellow ribbons...not just blue?
What about those who aren't gifted? Are we going to not cheer those on the team who are great team members? Is Indiana only about hanging banners?
If that is the case, then why don't we just buy a national championship like a neighbor to the south?
Really, there is no reason to even participate in 90% of D1, if that's the case.
Well, I was over stating the issue. That is why I had dws added after the sentence. But with Sampson and Archie Miller, who has been there just for 2 1/2 seasons, that would make 2 of the last 3 coaches. Not counting Dan D. who was not permanent.
So it really isn't that much of a stretch.
It's a stretch and you're being intellectually dishonest. When IU went to hire the new coach they could explain why it happened in 2 minutes, which they wouldn't even need to do.
The statement of intellectually dishonest, snarl, is inaccurate, incorrect, and intellectually dishonest. By statistics my statement was correct 66 percent of the last 3 full time coaches. And clearly could be considered slightly rhetorical...especially considering my dws which is a disclaimer, Which you ignored.
Why post that stuff? Oh, I get it...your agenda.
And what does your last sentence have to do with my post? Nothing. Htting the crack pipe early aren't you?
I might have to start hitting the crack pipe if you're going to continue to talk out both sides of your mouth. I'm still not going to look up dws.
