Did the final abandonment of the Palestinian people begin today?

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm surprised we haven't been talking about the apparently historic agreement between Israel and UAE to establish full diplomatic relations. President Trump was quite excited to announce it, and it's clear that Israel and UAE are both keen to establish a strategic relationship in a world in which both are worried more about Iran than each other.

But for the UAE to save face, Israel had to pay some level of lip service to the two-state solution, and shortly after, it appears mere lip-service it was, as the UAE (and the White House) claimed Israel was halting plans to annex parts of the West Bank, while Bibi almost immediately confirmed that his long term plans were the same; annexation was merely on hold.

It's unthinkable that Bibi simply pulled a fast one on everyone involved, and then brazenly owned up to it hours later. It will take weeks to get even the beginnings of this agreement implemented, and then many months and years to gradually get to the point of strategic partnership that both countries crave.

Rather, it seems that in the new Middle East, potential threats from Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., weigh more on the minds of Arab leaders than the plight of Palestinians. As more and more Arabs come around to the realization that Israel makes a better partner than adversary, it's going to be very easy to trade the Palestinians, since they are a much more valuable bargaining chip to Israel than they are to the Arab states.

 

[Morrison]

Interesting development. If the Palestinians feel abandoned, they will dramatically increase terrorist attacks as a way to revive attention to their plight. If Netanyahu has only hit the pause button on West Bank expansion, as he says, and returns to business as usual at a later date, he will lose all credibility with other potential partners in the region. There seems to be a disconnect between the parties of what they agreed to.

 

[Morrison]

I'm surprised we haven't been talking about the apparently historic agreement between Israel and UAE to establish full diplomatic relations. President Trump was quite excited to announce it, and it's clear that Israel and UAE are both keen to establish a strategic relationship in a world in which both are worried more about Iran than each other.

But for the UAE to save face, Israel had to pay some level of lip service to the two-state solution, and shortly after, it appears mere lip-service it was, as the UAE (and the White House) claimed Israel was halting plans to annex parts of the West Bank, while Bibi almost immediately confirmed that his long term plans were the same; annexation was merely on hold.

It's unthinkable that Bibi simply pulled a fast one on everyone involved, and then brazenly owned up to it hours later. It will take weeks to get even the beginnings of this agreement implemented, and then many months and years to gradually get to the point of strategic partnership that both countries crave.

Rather, it seems that in the new Middle East, potential threats from Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., weigh more on the minds of Arab leaders than the plight of Palestinians. As more and more Arabs come around to the realization that Israel makes a better partner than adversary, it's going to be very easy to trade the Palestinians, since they are a much more valuable bargaining chip to Israel than they are to the Arab states.

I’m hardly well versed enough on this subject to have a well thought out opinion. I’m just trying to keep a really good post alive in order to read the opinions of those smarter than me on the subject.

You would think conservatives would be all over this thread, since it looks like a rare win for Trump on a serious matter.

I commend you on your attempt at a good discussion, but a lot of “conservatives” on this board, seem to have been thrown off kilter with a recent political development and are falling all over themselves getting in their “non racist” opinions in other threads, and have no time for this.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I’m hardly well versed enough on this subject to have a well thought out opinion. I’m just trying to keep a really good post alive in order to read the opinions of those smarter than me on the subject.

You would think conservatives would be all over this thread, since it looks like a rare win for Trump on a serious matter.

I commend you on your attempt at a good discussion, but a lot of “conservatives” on this board, seem to have been thrown off kilter with a recent political development and are falling all over themselves getting in their non racist opinions in other threads, and have no time for this.

In my experience, most people, right and left, find foreign policy to be both boring and difficult to comprehend, so I don't expect threads like this to go very far. But I was surprised we weren't already talking about it for the same reason you mentioned: in a term with very few foreign policy coups, this looked like a rare victory for Trump.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

In my experience, most people, right and left, find foreign policy to be both boring and difficult to comprehend, so I don't expect threads like this to go very far. But I was surprised we weren't already talking about it for the same reason you mentioned: in a term with very few foreign policy coups, this looked like a rare victory for Trump.

Yeah, but I question how much Trump had to do with it. Sure, it appears to have gone our way. But by virtue of that, it doesn't mean POTUS brokered the deal. What evidence is there that Trump had a hand in making it happen? I see none. I'm happy to be educated on that, however.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah, but I question how much Trump had to do with it. Sure, it appears to have gone our way. But by virtue of that, it doesn't mean POTUS brokered the deal. What evidence is there that Trump had a hand in making it happen? I see none. I'm happy to be educated on that, however.

From my reading, the talks started many years ago, and this was something that both sides wanted to happen even before Trump took office. But still, it happened under his watch, so at the very least, he didn't screw it up. And he's going to clearly get to take at least some of the credit for it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

In my experience, most people, right and left, find foreign policy to be both boring and difficult to comprehend, so I don't expect threads like this to go very far. But I was surprised we weren't already talking about it for the same reason you mentioned: in a term with very few foreign policy coups, this looked like a rare victory for Trump.

My first thought this was about Arabians and Persians as much as about Israel and Palestine. I don’t think there is a lot of love between the Arabs and Palestinians any way. Somebody said it was an outgrowth if the Iranian deal too. I need to look into this more to understand all the ramifications.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

From my reading, the talks started many years ago, and this was something that both sides wanted to happen even before Trump took office. But still, it happened under his watch, so at the very least, he didn't screw it up. And he's going to clearly get to take at least some of the credit for it.

Yes. And I don't mean by what I posted to take away any credit due Trump in this. If his administration had a hand in brokering the deal, then good on him/them, and I'll be the first one to congratulate him/them. I just have seen no evidence as of yet to suggest that he/they had a hand in it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yes. And I don't mean by what I posted to take away any credit due Trump in this. If his administration had a hand in brokering the deal, then good on him/them, and I'll be the first one to congratulate him/them. I just have seen no evidence as of yet to suggest that he/they had a hand in it.

Well, he'll get some credit even if he doesn't deserve it, which is why I figured we'd already be talking about it. This was a big win for him in an area where he usually only loses.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

Well, he'll get some credit even if he doesn't deserve it, which is why I figured we'd already be talking about it. This was a big win for him in an area where he usually only loses.

I disagree, It's not a big win for him. Lacking any evidence to the contrary, it's simply not a loss for him. Given what we know now, it's simply a deal the affected parties consummated which had been in the works for years prior. Again, there is no evidence put forward that I have seen that the Trump administration had a hand in the deal.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

I disagree, It's not a big win for him. Lacking any evidence to the contrary, it's simply not a loss for him. Given what we know now, it's simply a deal the affected parties consummated which had been in the works for years prior. Again, there is no evidence put forward that I have seen that the Trump administration had a hand in the deal.

I know, POTUS automatically gets credit when things go well to our benefit in the middle east. I'll give him that. But I see no evidence so far that he had any role in the deal announced today.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I disagree, It's not a big win for him. Lacking any evidence to the contrary, it's simply not a loss for him. Given what we know now, it's simply a deal the affected parties consummated which had been in the works for years prior. Again, there is no evidence put forward that I have seen that the Trump administration had a hand in the deal.

Again, in case I wasn't clear, I was talking about public perception.

 

[hoosboot]

Again, in case I wasn't clear, I was talking about public perception.

I was going to make a similar post of praise, but then came the news from Bibi that he wasn't really doing what the press releases about the deal said Israel would do. If it doesn't halt West Bank settlements, the deal seems like it's on very shaky ground.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I was going to make a similar post of praise, but then came the news from Bibi that he wasn't really doing what the press releases about the deal said Israel would do. If it doesn't halt West Bank settlements, the deal seems like it's on very shaky ground.

That's why I phrased my OP and the title the way I did. I find it very unlikely that Bibi would "back out" so quickly. I suspect it's more likely that the U.S. and UAE know exactly what they are getting from Bibi, and the Palestinians are simply the odd man out, so to speak.

 

[hoosboot]

That's why I phrased my OP and the title the way I did. I find it very unlikely that Bibi would "back out" so quickly. I suspect it's more likely that the U.S. and UAE know exactly what they are getting from Bibi, and the Palestinians are simply the odd man out, so to speak.

I don't doubt it. I likewise don't understand what Bibi gets in undercutting the deal like that. I suspect it's all domestic Israeli politics, but he really ripped a fat juicy one in the middle of the party celebrating the good news.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don't doubt it. I likewise don't understand what Bibi gets in undercutting the deal like that. I suspect it's all domestic Israeli politics, but he really ripped a fat juicy one in the middle of the party celebrating the good news.

Oh, it's domestic politics for sure. His allies were calling him "traitor" within minutes of the news breaking.

 

[vslice2bad]

Annexation has been “suspended”, all predicated on “peace” prevailing.
Great day for the Middle East, great day for the world. Unfortunately if the domino is peace, it will eventually fall. Hope I’m wrong.

Why in the world would only conservatives be interested in this topic? Makes zero sense and I don’t understand the comment.
Since the thread has already become politicized, let’s just stay with that theme, seems to feel better. Man alive, SMH

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

In my experience, most people, right and left, find foreign policy to be both boring and difficult to comprehend, so I don't expect threads like this to go very far. But I was surprised we weren't already talking about it for the same reason you mentioned: in a term with very few foreign policy coups, this looked like a rare victory for Trump.

I was asleep at midnight and I’m at work now, but I’ll take a short break to say that this seems to be an historically good development in the Middle East. The administration deserves some credit for facilitating this.

 

[toastedbread]

I'm surprised we haven't been talking about the apparently historic agreement between Israel and UAE to establish full diplomatic relations. President Trump was quite excited to announce it, and it's clear that Israel and UAE are both keen to establish a strategic relationship in a world in which both are worried more about Iran than each other.

But for the UAE to save face, Israel had to pay some level of lip service to the two-state solution, and shortly after, it appears mere lip-service it was, as the UAE (and the White House) claimed Israel was halting plans to annex parts of the West Bank, while Bibi almost immediately confirmed that his long term plans were the same; annexation was merely on hold.

It's unthinkable that Bibi simply pulled a fast one on everyone involved, and then brazenly owned up to it hours later. It will take weeks to get even the beginnings of this agreement implemented, and then many months and years to gradually get to the point of strategic partnership that both countries crave.

Rather, it seems that in the new Middle East, potential threats from Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., weigh more on the minds of Arab leaders than the plight of Palestinians. As more and more Arabs come around to the realization that Israel makes a better partner than adversary, it's going to be very easy to trade the Palestinians, since they are a much more valuable bargaining chip to Israel than they are to the Arab states.

What's changed is that the arab public no longer cares about the Palestinians. Before, folks like rhe Emirates were forced to pretend to care to avoid angering their public. Now their public just cares about driving lambos. I don't know when precisely this change happened but it's been a solid decade. UAE has had relations with Israel under the table for quite awhile. UAE was never a physical threat to Israel, so probably not a huge deal if it's limited to UAE and not other arab states.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I haven’t read much on the agreement but anyone that thinks Arab countries actually care about or want the Palestinians is completely fooled. They are purely a political pawn to try and garner support when a country is opposed to Israel for something.

I find it more interesting that Turkey continues to be on the other side with Erdogan.

 

[bigmac76]

I'm surprised we haven't been talking about the apparently historic agreement between Israel and UAE to establish full diplomatic relations. President Trump was quite excited to announce it, and it's clear that Israel and UAE are both keen to establish a strategic relationship in a world in which both are worried more about Iran than each other.

But for the UAE to save face, Israel had to pay some level of lip service to the two-state solution, and shortly after, it appears mere lip-service it was, as the UAE (and the White House) claimed Israel was halting plans to annex parts of the West Bank, while Bibi almost immediately confirmed that his long term plans were the same; annexation was merely on hold.

It's unthinkable that Bibi simply pulled a fast one on everyone involved, and then brazenly owned up to it hours later. It will take weeks to get even the beginnings of this agreement implemented, and then many months and years to gradually get to the point of strategic partnership that both countries crave.

Rather, it seems that in the new Middle East, potential threats from Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., weigh more on the minds of Arab leaders than the plight of Palestinians. As more and more Arabs come around to the realization that Israel makes a better partner than adversary, it's going to be very easy to trade the Palestinians, since they are a much more valuable bargaining chip to Israel than they are to the Arab states.

Did the agreement include the immediate banning of the use of bone saws on journalists?

 

[Spartans9312]

I'm surprised we haven't been talking about the apparently historic agreement between Israel and UAE to establish full diplomatic relations. President Trump was quite excited to announce it, and it's clear that Israel and UAE are both keen to establish a strategic relationship in a world in which both are worried more about Iran than each other.

But for the UAE to save face, Israel had to pay some level of lip service to the two-state solution, and shortly after, it appears mere lip-service it was, as the UAE (and the White House) claimed Israel was halting plans to annex parts of the West Bank, while Bibi almost immediately confirmed that his long term plans were the same; annexation was merely on hold.

It's unthinkable that Bibi simply pulled a fast one on everyone involved, and then brazenly owned up to it hours later. It will take weeks to get even the beginnings of this agreement implemented, and then many months and years to gradually get to the point of strategic partnership that both countries crave.

Rather, it seems that in the new Middle East, potential threats from Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., weigh more on the minds of Arab leaders than the plight of Palestinians. As more and more Arabs come around to the realization that Israel makes a better partner than adversary, it's going to be very easy to trade the Palestinians, since they are a much more valuable bargaining chip to Israel than they are to the Arab states.

The Palestinians got overlooked but this deal has promise.
From the AP: A small but important initial step, both cell and landline telephone service began formally operating between the 2 countries without the need for restriction-dodging workarounds.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I’m hardly well versed enough on this subject to have a well thought out opinion. I’m just trying to keep a really good post alive in order to read the opinions of those smarter than me on the subject.

You would think conservatives would be all over this thread, since it looks like a rare win for Trump on a serious matter.

I commend you on your attempt at a good discussion, but a lot of “conservatives” on this board, seem to have been thrown off kilter with a recent political development and are falling all over themselves getting in their “non racist” opinions in other threads, and have no time for this.

The way this thread evolved is a reason not to talk about it.

This was Trump. Obama played footsie with the Iranians. The Arabs see them as a bigger threat than the Israelis and thus the enemy of my enemy became someone I can work with.

The move is made now because it looks like stupid M.E. foreign policy w.r.t. Iran has a chance of coming back with Biden/Harris.

 

[jet812]

Yeah, but I question how much Trump had to do with it. Sure, it appears to have gone our way. But by virtue of that, it doesn't mean POTUS brokered the deal. What evidence is there that Trump had a hand in making it happen? I see none. I'm happy to be educated on that, however.

Maybe they read his book...

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The way this thread evolved is a reason not to talk about it.

This was Trump. Obama played footsie with the Iranians. The Arabs see them as a bigger threat than the Israelis and thus the enemy of my enemy became someone I can work with.

The move is made now because it looks like stupid M.E. foreign policy w.r.t. Iran has a chance of coming back with Biden/Harris.

The way this thread evolved was fine until you dumped this here.

 

[hoosboot]

The Palestinians got overlooked but this deal has promise.
From the AP: A small but important initial step, both cell and landline telephone service began formally operating between the 2 countries without the need for restriction-dodging workarounds.

Agree that the deal has promise, but a slight quibble...I think it's wrong to suggest that the Palestinians got "overlooked". They were looked at, disregarded, and then steamrolled.

 

[IUCrazy2]

The way this thread evolved was fine until you dumped this here.

No, it was quickly a "this happened despite Trump" thread within 5 posts.

As to what I "dumped", sometimes reality bites. You are deluding yourself if you don't believe that Obama's glad handing of Iran at a time when they basically converted Iraq to a client state, were in the process of doing the same to Syria, already had Lebanon under their thumb, and were involved in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia did not push the Arabs and Israelis towards each other.

That's reality.

 

[hoosboot]

No, it was quickly a "this happened despite Trump" thread within 5 posts.

As to what I "dumped", sometimes reality bites. You are deluding yourself if you don't believe that Obama's glad handing of Iran at a time when they basically converted Iraq to a client state, were in the process of doing the same to Syria, already had Lebanon under their thumb, and were involved in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia did not push the Arabs and Israelis towards each other.

That's reality.

I'm sure that's how "reality" sounds in Hamilton County. My guess is that reality is quite a bit more complex than your analysis in the actual execution of things.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

No, it was quickly a "this happened despite Trump" thread within 5 posts.

As to what I "dumped", sometimes reality bites. You are deluding yourself if you don't believe that Obama's glad handing of Iran at a time when they basically converted Iraq to a client state, were in the process of doing the same to Syria, already had Lebanon under their thumb, and were involved in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia did not push the Arabs and Israelis towards each other.

That's reality.

LOL. Grrrrrr! Obama!

 

[kurt cloverdales]

No, it was quickly a "this happened despite Trump" thread within 5 posts.

As to what I "dumped", sometimes reality bites. You are deluding yourself if you don't believe that Obama's glad handing of Iran at a time when they basically converted Iraq to a client state, were in the process of doing the same to Syria, already had Lebanon under their thumb, and were involved in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia did not push the Arabs and Israelis towards each other.

That's reality.

cheaney had nothing to do with iraq becoming a client state of iran, that was a brilliant war he started and managed