Did the bottom fall out?

82hoosier

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First let me say that I believe deep in my heart that the Hoosiers are on the rebound. I don’t know if it will take two years or five years for them to get back to some sort of national recognition. But I believe it is in the works and I am confident that it eventually will happen before I die.

During the years where the Hoosiers were on a long slow slide towards national mediocrity, which I believe is owned by Crean, there was never a shortage of fanatical Hoosiers who thought each year was just an aberation. Everybody was spending their time on this website trying to justify that Indiana was still a blue blood program. With the benefit of hindsight when do you think the bottom fell out?

I’ll go with December 18th 2017, when the Hoosiers lost to the Fort Wayne Mastadons by 20 points. With the benefit of hindsight Crean should have been on after that loss.
 

GeddyHoosier

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I believe it started well before the Crean years. Our last year as an elite blueboood was 1992-93, when CalBert and Greg Graham were seniors. It’s been a steady decline since then with many contributing factors, so I don’t really look at 1 specific moment/game over those years, but rather a gradual process getting close to 3 decades now.
 

Lucy01

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First let me say that I believe deep in my heart that the Hoosiers are on the rebound. I don’t know if it will take two years or five years for them to get back to some sort of national recognition. But I believe it is in the works and I am confident that it eventually will happen before I die.

During the years where the Hoosiers were on a long slow slide towards national mediocrity, which I believe is owned by Crean, there was never a shortage of fanatical Hoosiers who thought each year was just an aberation. Everybody was spending their time on this website trying to justify that Indiana was still a blue blood program. With the benefit of hindsight when do you think the bottom fell out?

I’ll go with December 18th 2017, when the Hoosiers lost to the Fort Wayne Mastadons by 20 points. With the benefit of hindsight Crean should have been on after that loss.
The bottom dropped out in Archie’s first game against Indiana State.
 

abraxis

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For me, I believe it was our “Zapruder” film that mysteriously emerged, the Neil Reed was it/was it not a real choke hold. Reed didn’t think it was a big deal at the time, nor did the other players. It was only later, after Reed was told there was a disparaging film against Knight did it become a big attention thing for the media to run with and the anti-Knight sentiment really escalated nationally after that, even with many of Hoosier Nation. Life as an IU fan has been a seemingly endless, topsy turvy roller coaster ride ever since of lots of lows and few highs.
 

Jssanto

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For me, I believe it was our “Zapruder” film that mysteriously emerged, the Neil Reed was it/was it not a real choke hold. Reed didn’t think it was a big deal at the time, nor did the other players. It was only later, after Reed was told there was a disparaging film against Knight did it become a big attention thing for the media to run with and the anti-Knight sentiment really escalated nationally after that, even with many of Hoosier Nation. Life as an IU fan has been a seemingly endless, topsy turvy roller coaster ride ever since of lots of lows and few highs.
Did the Neil Reed tape follow the head but and chair throw ? I forget the timeline.
 

UTFO

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For me, I believe it was our “Zapruder” film that mysteriously emerged, the Neil Reed was it/was it not a real choke hold. Reed didn’t think it was a big deal at the time, nor did the other players. It was only later, after Reed was told there was a disparaging film against Knight did it become a big attention thing for the media to run with and the anti-Knight sentiment really escalated nationally after that, even with many of Hoosier Nation. Life as an IU fan has been a seemingly endless, topsy turvy roller coaster ride ever since of lots of lows and few highs.


IU did not show itself well during that whole thing.

All I can say is this: any grown man lays his hands on my kid like that, and we're fighting.
 

Birnk403

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First let me say that I believe deep in my heart that the Hoosiers are on the rebound. I don’t know if it will take two years or five years for them to get back to some sort of national recognition. But I believe it is in the works and I am confident that it eventually will happen before I die.

During the years where the Hoosiers were on a long slow slide towards national mediocrity, which I believe is owned by Crean, there was never a shortage of fanatical Hoosiers who thought each year was just an aberation. Everybody was spending their time on this website trying to justify that Indiana was still a blue blood program. With the benefit of hindsight when do you think the bottom fell out?

I’ll go with December 18th 2017, when the Hoosiers lost to the Fort Wayne Mastadons by 20 points. With the benefit of hindsight Crean should have been on after that loss.
The slide was underway the mid to late 90’s, while BK was still coaching.
 

Birnk403

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For me, I believe it was our “Zapruder” film that mysteriously emerged, the Neil Reed was it/was it not a real choke hold. Reed didn’t think it was a big deal at the time, nor did the other players. It was only later, after Reed was told there was a disparaging film against Knight did it become a big attention thing for the media to run with and the anti-Knight sentiment really escalated nationally after that, even with many of Hoosier Nation. Life as an IU fan has been a seemingly endless, topsy turvy roller coaster ride ever since of lots of lows and few highs.
There were “incidents” far worse than what was shown with Reed, but Knight and IU couldn’t have handled it worse, from beginning to end. It was as if both he and IU were intent on doing everything wrong, and doing it with precision and great effort, and that they were constantly looking for a bigger, steeper cliff to fling themselves off of. Ultimately, they succeeded. No surprise that the dopes responsible for the demise of the program have greatly inhibited its resurgence. Again, great effort has been made to screw it up and keep it screwed up. We’re just lucky it’s only been 20 some years.
 
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GeddyHoosier

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Brand doesn't deserve all the blame. RMK had some recruiting classes that were busts. In '93 he brought in Sherron, Steve Hart, Richard Mandeville, Robbie Eggers, and Rob Foster. Each contributed little to nothing. Patterson and Charlie Miller came the next year, but so too did Neil Reed and Michael Hermon. Those recruiting mistakes really burned IU into the late 90s.
 

abraxis

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Did the Neil Reed tape follow the head but and chair throw ? I forget the timeline.
I bet you weren’t at the Fairgrounds Coliseum for the game “Slick” Leonard, our other HOF coaching alumnus, threw a multi-tiered rack of balls onto the court in protest of an ABA Pacers game...back when men were real and feelings could still be hurt without fear of lawsuits.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Brand doesn't deserve all the blame. RMK had some recruiting classes that were busts. In '93 he brought in Sherron, Steve Hart, Richard Mandeville, Robbie Eggers, and Rob Foster. Each contributed little to nothing. Patterson and Charlie Miller came the next year, but so too did Neil Reed and Michael Hermon. Those recruiting mistakes really burned IU into the late 90s.
BK often said that he should have left earlier. blaming it on IU leadership. The fact is he had essentially lost his edge with recruits. His own words were that kids had not changed but parents had...and he was was not about to change with them.
 

abraxis

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There were “incidents” far worse than what was shown with Reed, but Knight and IU couldn’t have handled it worse, from beginning to end. It was if both he and IU were intent on doing everything wrong, and doing it with precision and great effort. It was as if they were constantly looking for a bigger, steeper cliff to fling themselves off of. Ultimately, they succeeded. No surprise that the dopes responsible for the demise of the program have greatly inhibited its resurgence. Again, great effort has been made to screw it up and keep it screwed up. We’re just lucky it’s only been 20 some years.
By “incidents far worse than what was shown by Reed” are you referring to the time Knight put a Kotex in Landon Turner’s locker as a novel means of motivation? You conclude by claiming we’re lucky it’s only been 20 years. Is that because it may, yet, go on for another 10 if not another 20 or so more years?

The anti-bullying sentiment didn’t happen suddenly, as if over night, but rather with each incident, whether real or imagined, the liberal press against Knight magnified the “travesty” of his anti-social habits with an emerging kinder/gentler society of higher morals (cough, cough...must be the Covid in the air).
 
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The slide was underway the mid to late 90’s, while BK was still coaching.
it began right after Bailey graduated. His Sr yr was the twilight of the RMK yrs. The remaining yrs, while still better than what we've had to endure recently, paled in comparison to what we had experienced over the previous 20 yrs. And it wasn't due to talent...we were still getting our share of 5 star burger boys and loaded classes. They just weren't working within the RMK system.

Brand shot the horse dead, but it was already dying a slow death.
 

Birnk403

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By “incidents far worse than what was shown by Reed” are you referring to the time Knight put a Kotex in Landon Turner’s locker as a novel means of motivation? You conclude by claiming we’re lucky it’s only been 20 years. Is that because it may, yet, go on for another 10 if not another 20 or so more years?

The anti-bullying sentiment didn’t happen suddenly, as if over night, but rather with each incident, whether real or imagined, the liberal press against Knight magnified the “travesty” of his anti-social habits with an emerging kinder/gentler society of higher morals (cough, cough...must be the Covid in the air).
I meant putting his hands on players like he did with Reed. There were plenty of things that went beyond a Kotex-in-a-locker situation over the years. That was PG rated. Knight was a victim of his own hubris far more than any outside influence or sentiment. He imploded, just as many predicted he would years earlier.
 
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Birnk403

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it began right after Bailey graduated. His Sr yr was the twilight of the RMK yrs. The remaining yrs, while still better than what we've had to endure recently, paled in comparison to what we had experienced over the previous 20 yrs. And it wasn't due to talent...we were still getting our share of 5 star burger boys and loaded classes. They just weren't working within the RMK system.

Brand shot the horse dead, but it was already dying a slow death.
I agree, and I agree that there was talent in the program, though I think it was assembled “less purposefully” than in previous years. After DB, too many talented kids came in who weren’t good fits, and it began to show. BK tried to fix it in recruiting, but kids began to tune him out. As I’ve said previously on several occasions, he began to lose the parents, and that was the doorway to losing the kids. I still remember a very interested national recruit whose mother basically crossed IU off the list before they’d left the AH parking lot after a meeting with BK (and Knight thought they’d gotten along fine). He was oblivious as to how he came off to moms and dads, and it really started to hurt him.
 

abraxis

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BK often said that he should have left earlier. blaming it on IU leadership. The fact is he had essentially lost his edge with recruits. His own words were that kids had not changed but parents had...and he was was not about to change with them.
I admire a man who stays true to his convictions, despite others changing around him.

”I wanted only to try to live with the promptings which came from my true self. Why was this so very difficult?” ~ haunting epigraph to Herman Hesse’s Demian.

I’m not, yet, convinced those changes by others around him have led to the betterment of today’s society.
 

Fpeaugh2

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To be fair, myself and a couple others have been telling people this and trying to educate them for the better part of 20 years. But no one would listen.

The bottom fell out in the Crean years. The IU fan base was nothing short of a full on cult for Tom Crean. I’m talking move to the mountains, give the guy your money, and let him have your wife type of cult. It will forever be the biggest stain on our program.

Crean should’ve been fired after year 3. Spare me the excuses. I said it then and was called a troll, UK fan, Purdue fan, whatever. He set us on this course and most IU fans were taken for a ride.
 

abraxis

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I meant putting his hands on players like he did with Reed. There were plenty of things that went beyond a Kotex-in-a-locker situation over the years. That was PG rated. Knight was a victim of his own hubris far more than any outside influence or sentiment. He imploded, just as many predicted he would years earlier.
I was being sarcastic about the Kotex motivational tool. Let’s all be thankful Bob’s impending doom of prophesied implosion didn’t occur until AFTER his three national championships and countless near misses. If only we hadn’t put so much emphasis on winning, we may have prevented these touching acts against his innocent victims much sooner. (SARCASM alert, apparently needed)
 
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To be fair, myself and a couple others have been telling people this and trying to educate them for the better part of 20 years. But no one would listen.

The bottom fell out in the Crean years. The IU fan base was nothing short of a full on cult for Tom Crean. I’m talking move to the mountains, give the guy your money, and let him have your wife type of cult. It will forever be the biggest stain on our program.

Crean should’ve been fired after year 3. Spare me the excuses. I said it then and was called a troll, UK fan, Purdue fan, whatever. He set us on this course and most IU fans were taken for a ride.
I must live in a bubble up here because I didn't see this Crean cult phenomenon. I will agree, the yr 3 results would have put most coaches on the hot seat. No improvement in yr 3- a team with young VO, Sheehey, Verdell, Hulls and CWat plus Pritchard who at that point had a ton of experience (can't recall- was Mo Creek out due to injury at that point?) . Should have seen an upward trajectory that yr and did not. Cody saved Crean's ass. And then Yogi bought him another year. But for many fans, the Cuse game and then the underachieving following season- that was it for me with Crean. It was obvious he had hit his ceiling and was just selling snake oil.
 
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abraxis

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To be fair, myself and a couple others have been telling people this and trying to educate them for the better part of 20 years. But no one would listen.

The bottom fell out in the Crean years. The IU fan base was nothing short of a full on cult for Tom Crean. I’m talking move to the mountains, give the guy your money, and let him have your wife type of cult. It will forever be the biggest stain on our program.

Crean should’ve been fired after year 3. Spare me the excuses. I said it then and was called a troll, UK fan, Purdue fan, whatever. He set us on this course and most IU fans were taken for a ride.
Impartial sports analysts seldom fail to mention IU fired a basketball coach only one year after being named BT Coach of the Year by winning the conference season title with a 2 game cushion to spare. The same people thinking IU can do better than Knight, Davis, Sampson, Crean and Miller are the same ones now convinced we’ll do better with Woodson. Meanwhile, Purdue just keeps thumping our asses with a more effective recruiting machine in Keady/Painter.
 

Birnk403

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I was being sarcastic about the Kotex motivational tool. Let’s all be thankful Bob’s impending doom of prophesied implosion didn’t occur until AFTER his three national championships and countless near misses. If only we hadn’t put so much emphasis on winning, we may have prevented these touching acts against his innocent victims much sooner. (SARCASM alert, apparently needed)
No doubt, winning big made plenty of people not only excuse but even justify his behavior. Programs that have historically been cheaters have plenty of fans who defend those actions in the same way, and become sanctimonious about the justifications if questioned in any way.
 
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abraxis

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I agree, and I agree that there was talent in the program, though I think it was assembled “less purposefully” than in previous years. After DB, too many talented kids came in who weren’t good fits, and it began to show. BK tried to fix it in recruiting, but kids began to tune him out. As I’ve said previously on several occasions, he began to lose the parents, and that was the doorway to losing the kids. I still remember a very interested national recruit whose mother basically crossed IU off the list before they’d left the AH parking lot after a meeting with BK (and Knight thought they’d gotten along fine). He was oblivious as to how he came off to moms and dads, and it really started to hurt him.
This was the mother’s and Bob’s quote referring to which recruit? This one I missed along the way. Isiah Thomas’ mother had an in-home visit with Knight, after which she said this is who her son will be playing for in college. Isiah was later quoted as saying he had no personal say in the matter, remaining loyal to the man to this day.
 

Birnk403

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I must live in a bubble up here because I didn't see this Crean cult phenomenon. I will agree, the yr 3 results would have put most coaches on the hot seat. No improvement in yr 3- a team with young VO, Sheehey, Verdell, Hulls and CWat plus Pritchard who at that point had a ton of experience (can't recall- was Mo Creek out due to injury at that point?) . Should have seen an upward trajectory that yr and did not. Cody saved Crean's ass. And then Yogi bought him another year. But for many fans, the Cuse game and then the underachieving following season- that was it for me with Crean. It was obvious he had hit his ceiling and was just selling snake oil.
Yeah, there wasn’t a Crean cult, though some fans were obviously fooled by the style and missed the lack of substance. The plethora of “We’re Back!” shorts and proclamations is a testament to that.
 

Coach Geez

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I must live in a bubble up here because I didn't see this Crean cult phenomenon. I will agree, the yr 3 results would have put most coaches on the hot seat. No improvement in yr 3- a team with young VO, Sheehey, Verdell, Hulls and CWat plus Pritchard who at that point had a ton of experience (can't recall- was Mo Creek out due to injury at that point?) . Should have seen an upward trajectory that yr and did not. Cody saved Crean's ass. And then Yogi bought him another year. But for many fans, the Cuse game and then the underachieving following season- that was it for me with Crean. It was obvious he had hit his ceiling and was just selling snake oil.
No you are absolutely correct. I think the majority of the IU fan base was alarmed at the lack of progress after 3 years but also had the keen understanding that Crean started with absolutely nothing. Then 11-12 and 12-13 happened and everything appeared to be back on track until the total lack of preparedness cost them the Syracuse game. I believe after that game there was a very high number volume of people who understood Crean was not the long term answer. After the conclusion of the following season that resulted in a missed tournament did most people get on board that Crean's days were numbered. Unfortunately he was held onto three years too long.

But this cult this poster speaks of simply isn't true. More drivel.
 

abraxis

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No doubt, winning big made plenty of people not only excuse but even justify his behavior. Programs that have historically been cheated have plenty of fans who defend those actions in the same way, and become sanctimonious about the justifications if questioned in any way.
It’s easier to build a winning program at all costs than it is to create a winning program totally within the confines of the ever changing recruiting rules. IU has taken the moral high ground after being burned at the stake by their own people. Good for us, a clean program now, free from the tainted stains left from our “classic bully” and his enablers who worshipped his winning ways.
 

Birnk403

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This was the mother’s and Bob’s quote referring to which recruit? This one I missed along the way. Isiah Thomas’ mother had an in-home visit with Knight, after which she said this is who her son will be playing for in college. Isiah was later quoted as saying he had no personal say in the matter, remaining loyal to the man to this day.
Mary loved Knight, without question. RL’s mom, not so much (yes, I’m teasing you with those initials to see if you can figure it out).
 

abraxis

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Yeah, there wasn’t a Crean cult, though some fans were obviously fooled by the style and missed the lack of substance. The plethora of “We’re Back!” shorts and proclamations is a testament to that.
Just put a sign out on HW 37, “It’s Indiana!” and watch those 5 stars come running. Anyone can be successful at IU with our recruiting in the hotbed of basketball, just because we’re IU, or so we were told and the gullible (naive) believed.
 

Birnk403

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No you are absolutely correct. I think the majority of the IU fan base was alarmed at the lack of progress after 3 years but also had the keen understanding that Crean started with absolutely nothing. Then 11-12 and 12-13 happened and everything appeared to be back on track until the total lack of preparedness cost them the Syracuse game. I believe after that game there was a very high number volume of people who understood Crean was not the long term answer. After the conclusion of the following season that resulted in a missed tournament did most people get on board that Crean's days were numbered. Unfortunately he was held onto three years too long.

But this cult this poster speaks of simply isn't true. More drivel.
It was easy to see well before the Syracuse game.
 

Birnk403

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It’s easier to build a winning program at all costs than it is to create a winning program totally within the confines of the ever changing recruiting rules. IU has taken the moral high ground after being burned at the stake by their own people. Good for us, a clean program now, free from the tainted stains left from our “classic bully” and his enablers who worshipped his winning ways.
I don’t think either scenario makes it easy to build a winning program, as both involve compromises that eventually blow things up. Doing things the right way should be the standard.
 

abraxis

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I don’t think either scenario makes it easy to build a winning program, as both involve compromises that eventually blow things up. Doing things the right way should be the standard.
Should be the standard but it’s not as the world gets more competitive everyday. Increasing competition leads to increasing desperation. The mouth-spouting holy rollers aren’t immune to the call of temptation. Even the Bible gives us a free pass with it’s “inevitable sins of Man” being forgiven with personal acknowledgement of belief.
 

Birnk403

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Should be the standard but it’s not as the world gets more competitive everyday. Increasing competition leads to increasing desperation. The mouth-spouting holy rollers aren’t immune to the call of temptation. Even the Bible gives us a free pass with it’s “inevitable sins of Man” being forgiven with personal acknowledgement of belief.
Doing it honestly and with class and integrity should be the standard, hopefully while winning at a high level. If it was easy, everyone would do it.
 
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ThreeToMakeTwo

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Knight said he ought to have quit in 95 when the athletic dept decided to spread their love around to other sports. Crean? Crean was no great coach but you cant ignore he took on a program with a returning scoring average of 1.8 pts per game. Frankly, I think the next time a coach gets fired the way Knight did you don’t replace him with Davis just because the players demanded he be their coach. A top program deserves a top coach not someone who happens to be in the right place at the wrong time.
 

abraxis

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Mary loved Knight, without question. RL’s mom, not so much (yes, I’m teasing you with those initials to see if you can figure it out).
Your teaser, “RL” has me stumped so please tell us more, as I will say your use of “Mary” was quite impressive. If only I had thought to use that stamp of knowledge.
 

Birnk403

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Your teaser, “RL” has me stumped so please tell us more, as I will say your use of “Mary” was quite impressive. If only I had thought to use that stamp of knowledge.
Some of the stories of Mary showing up at games with more people than her allotted number of tickets are legendary.

RF is Raef Lafrentz. Knight wanted him, but wanted his future teammate more, and thought he had him. One of his two most disappointing late recruiting misses.
 

abraxis

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I must live in a bubble up here because I didn't see this Crean cult phenomenon. I will agree, the yr 3 results would have put most coaches on the hot seat. No improvement in yr 3- a team with young VO, Sheehey, Verdell, Hulls and CWat plus Pritchard who at that point had a ton of experience (can't recall- was Mo Creek out due to injury at that point?) . Should have seen an upward trajectory that yr and did not. Cody saved Crean's ass. And then Yogi bought him another year. But for many fans, the Cuse game and then the underachieving following season- that was it for me with Crean. It was obvious he had hit his ceiling and was just selling snake oil.
One of Knight’s many famous quotes, regarding a game like Crean’s against Syracuse, would have been, “Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you!”, although he was more of a rabbit hunter. Miller left here without one memorable quote. At least Crean had his now infamous, “It’s Indiana!” uttered in seemingly spontaneous response to “Why Indiana?” on his Day 1. Today, a coach is asked that same question, followed by a longer pause before explanation.