Book banning that suspiciously looks like what all the snowflakes are worried about

[CO. Hoosier]

You should also read Maus. You wouldn't worry about any sort of "victim/perp mentality" agenda if you did.

Books that have lessons for kids is the way my Stoker describes her approach. If Jr high kids need Maus to know that genocide and death camps are bad, we got bigger problems than censorship.

If you taught the Holocaust to kids who knew little about it, wouldn’t your theme be related to victim suffering at the hands of perpetrators? Many subtexts flow from that centrality. Most of history comes down to that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Books that have lessons for kids is the way my Stoker describes her approach. If Jr high kids need Maus to know that genocide and death camps are bad, we got bigger problems than censorship.

If you taught the Holocaust to kids who knew little about it, wouldn’t your theme be related to victim suffering at the hands of perpetrators? Many subtexts flow from that centrality. Most of history comes down to that.

Like I said, read the book.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Like I said, read the book.

Yeah. I got that.

What’s the take away do you think a Jr. High kid gets from Maus?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah. I got that.

What’s the take away do you think a Jr. High kid gets from Maus?

Lots of things. Yes, on the obvious front, I imagine the kid learns something about the inhumanity of the Holocaust. And not just the simplistic view that the Jews were victims and the Nazis were inhumane; inhumanity creeps up among other characters, too, including Jewish ones. The reader learns extensively about - ahem - nuance. I also imagine he learns about parent-child estrangement, and coming to grips with one's family's past. He also probably learns a lot of what it's like to feel like one can never live up to expectations, which is ultimately one of the major themes of the story, and a lesson I imagine it is quite healthy for some kids to experience.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Lots of things. Yes, on the obvious front, I imagine the kid learns something about the inhumanity of the Holocaust. And not just the simplistic view that the Jews were victims and the Nazis were inhumane; inhumanity creeps up among other characters, too, including Jewish ones. The reader learns extensively about - ahem - nuance. I also imagine he learns about parent-child estrangement, and coming to grips with one's family's past. He also probably learns a lot of what it's like to feel like one can never live up to expectations, which is ultimately one of the major themes of the story, and a lesson I imagine it is quite healthy for some kids to experience.

Thanks.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I'm looking forward to Masa's opinion on this topic.

 

[The Vid]

It is value-laden. I consider it a value to challenge our children and expose them to material that forces them to think and face uncomfortable realities. We're desperately in danger of raising a generation of mindless puffballs who can't handle even the slightest excursion from the most narrow of comfort zones.

We already have enough adults like that. Let's not pass the same sins down to a new generation.

Mindless puffballs are already controlling that narrative. It’s not limited to either of our sorry ass political parties.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Readin comic books in school in 8th grade got us a paddling (in a class taught by a male, many of whom were vets) or a demerit (in a class taught by a female).

And maybe 5 8th graders in the whole nation are picking up on the nuances you adults discuss about the Holocaust. Might as well force them to read Into the Forest.

8th grade Holocaust history is about a 5 minute lecture. And half will still misspell it.

You want to teach kids about the Holocaust? Take em to the DC museum. Even an e-tour on line is enough.

Fighting about Maus is like most things these days - creating a reason to fight.

Ill put a copy in our street library. Books are the only thing our socially-active young folks won’t steal these days. (Anybody still got their catalytic converter?)

 

[hoosboot]

Readin comic books in school in 8th grade got us a paddling (in a class taught by a male, many of whom were vets) or a demerit (in a class taught by a female).

And maybe 5 8th graders in the whole nation are picking up on the nuances you adults discuss about the Holocaust. Might as well force them to read Into the Forest.

8th grade Holocaust history is about a 5 minute lecture. And half will still misspell it.

You want to teach kids about the Holocaust? Take em to the DC museum. Even an e-tour on line is enough.

Fighting about Maus is like most things these days - creating a reason to fight.

Ill put a copy in our street library. Books are the only thing our socially-active young folks won’t steal these days. (Anybody still got their catalytic converter?)

Yeah, but that's because you walked to and from school every day up hill in both directions...in five feet of snow.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I look at this the same way I look at the idiots that ban or want to ban Huck Finn or To Kill a Mockingbird.

They are virtue signaling idiots wanting to attack someone or something.

Try adulting and give the books to your kids at home.

 

[outside shooter]

One thing is for sure, a shitton more of copies of Maus will be sold and a lot more people will read it. Thanks, Tennessee morons!

 

[outside shooter]

...including any Holocaust book at this age is in furtherance of a different agenda related to the victim/perp mentality that dominates so much social interaction nowadays. I think there are other different and higher priorities for Jr. high kids.

Couldn't disagree more. Kids know right and wrong, but it's critically important for them to also know that evil taking hold in a society is not just a theoretical construct, it is a real happening that needs to be remembered in uncomfortable detail if we aim to forever avoid repeating such inhuman behavior.

 

[zeke4ahs]

How do you think most people are exposed to books? About 40% say they have not read fiction in the last year, and 40% say they have not read nonfiction in the last year. The percentage of Americans choosing to read a Holocaust book on their own would seem to be a very small number, I doubt it cracks 10% and probably not 5.

Home

Mr. Warwick is an author and entrepreneur who has made his mark in the nonprofit sector and the world of books and literature.

malwarwickonbooks.com

The vast number of Americans will read Night, Diary of a Young Girl, Maus, 451, etc in a class or they will never read them.

How do you think most people are exposed to books? About 40% say they have not read fiction in the last year, and 40% say they have not read nonfiction in the last year. The percentage of Americans choosing to read a Holocaust book on their own would seem to be a very small number, I doubt it cracks 10% and probably not 5.

Home

Mr. Warwick is an author and entrepreneur who has made his mark in the nonprofit sector and the world of books and literature.

malwarwickonbooks.com

The vast number of Americans will read Night, Diary of a Young Girl, Maus, 451, etc in a class or they will never

And I’d think most parents would prefer it in a classroom with teachers guiding the discussions and helping kids with emotional responses. I taught Anne Frank and Number the Stars in fourth grade GT group. Parents were able to get books and guided discussion questions if they wanted or to opt out. No one did. They wanted their kids to learn about it and trusted me.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I think teaching the Holocaust is much like teaching sex Ed. You start early but in limited amount and lots of discussion. I think like most kids, I started with Anne Frank when I was in third or fourth grade. Read it in my own and then became obsessed and read all kinds of things about it. With the time passing and more and more Holocaust deniers, I think it’s even more important to be taught in schools. I was fortunate enough to get to Terre Haute to the museum and hear Eva Kor speak. She was an incredible woman.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I look at this the same way I look at the idiots that ban or want to ban Huck Finn or To Kill a Mockingbird.

They are virtue signaling idiots wanting to attack someone or something.

Try adulting and give the books to your kids at home.

Everything always boils down to parenting. My kid is only a 5th grader and already aware and relatively knowledgeable. We are members of the Jewish Federation here and I took her to their museum and talked with her about it as we looked through the exhibits. I'm an excellent parent

 

[outside shooter]

Growing up in rural southern Indiana there were many things I basically wasn't taught at all in the 70s. The Holocaust was one. The theory of evolution was another. Just crazy. Teaching any type of biology and ignoring evolution is like teaching physics and ignoring math, or teaching English Composition and ignoring all rules of grammar.

 

[El Drado]

I think teaching the Holocaust is much like teaching sex Ed. You start early but in limited amount and lots of discussion. I think like most kids, I started with Anne Frank when I was in third or fourth grade. Read it in my own and then became obsessed and read all kinds of things about it. With the time passing and more and more Holocaust deniers, I think it’s even more important to be taught in schools. I was fortunate enough to get to Terre Haute to the museum and hear Eva Kor speak. She was an incredible woman.

I saw Elie Wiesel speak in Muncie '00. He told me i was the most interesting person he has ever met........ok, the first half is true though

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Everything always boils down to parenting. My kid is only a 5th grader and already aware and relatively knowledgeable. We are members of the Jewish Federation here and I took her to their museum and talked with her about it as we looked through the exhibits. I'm an excellent parent

If you can get to the museum in DC you both won't forget it.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Growing up in rural southern Indiana there were many things I basically wasn't taught at all in the 70s. The Holocaust was one. The theory of evolution was another. Just crazy. Teaching any type of biology and ignoring evolution is like teaching physics and ignoring math, or teaching English Composition and ignoring all rules of grammar.

I grew up in Spencer County, on the Ohio River. I learned all about the Holocaust and evolution. In high school.

You must be from Tell City. Or worse.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Virtue signal? What in tarnation are you talking about? They voted to ban a Pulitzer Prize winning graphic novel (i.e., akin to a comic strip in book form, without the comedy) because a book about the Holocaust included a few bad words and a drawing of a naked mouse! Good Lord, are you that dense that you think this is somehow protecting 8th graders in Tennessee? It's about the f-u-c-k-i-n-g extermination of 6,000,000 Jews, yet a school board is worried about a few bad words and a naked mouse? The school board stated that the book was banned because “of its unnecessary use of profanity and nudity and its depiction of violence and suicide.” It's a book about the f-u-c-k-i-n-g Holocaust! How the hell do you have a book about the Holocaust without depicting violence, or suicide, or using a few "bad words"?

And you too think it's acceptable for a school board to only allow books that teach a nicer or more pleasant version of the Holocaust? What should they use, a book that depicts Auschwitz as a summer camp for families with not so good food? Or gas chambers as where kids went to shower, with all of their clothes on? Hey, that fits perfectly with the no cartoon nudity stance, and it even fits with actual history I suppose. Of course there was a reason the Nazis told them it was actually a shower. Ironic.

For f-u-c-k-s sake, the Holocaust should be taught exactly like it was.

Oh, and here's a naked mouse for you.

 

[outside shooter]

I grew up in Spencer County, on the Ohio River. I learned all about the Holocaust and evolution. In high school.

You must be from Tell City. Or worse.

Jennings County. I had some very good teachers, but in hindsight I think their hands were tied by poor administration, or at least administration that was too concerned by the potential for parental complaints.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

I hesitate to pontificate on these peoples decision, knowing absolutely nothing about it, but, in general, book banning is not cool.

Ok, after reading the minutes of the board meeting, I’m a little more understanding of the decision here. They go to great lengths to stress that they understand that kids need to learn about the holocaust, and that the subject is necessarily uncomfortable. They just object to the language in the book.

There was also a question of how the book was chosen in the first place, as the committee that approved the curriculum for that district did not recommend this book, yet it was chosen anyway.

I still don’t agree with it, but I have a better understanding of what happened.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I grew up in Spencer County, on the Ohio River. I learned all about the Holocaust and evolution. In high school.

You must be from Tell City. Or worse.

I grew up in the refined and civilized north of Indiana and attended a crappy 1-A school. Our football coach U.S. History teacher who thought the Berlin Wall extended all the way around the nation of Eastern Germany, who covered the Civil War in one day because he fell behind on the syllabus, and who showed us more movies like Look Who's Talking than history documentaries, taught us about American slavery and that it was bad; we learned about the Holocaust and that it was bad.

Quite frankly, I'm still skeptical of anyone who says they weren't taught either of those things in a public school, no matter where they grew up. Of course, you don't need to have learned either of those things in school since it's nearly impossible to watch movies or TV or pop culture and not know about it. (The stats on people who can't tell you about it? Those don't mean they weren't taught it, it means they can't remember it or didn't pay attention.)

We never learned about evolution, though, in any of my science classes (I knew the basics but would have loved to have learned more which I didn't do until well out of school). Of course, the stories I could tell about the Barney Fife-like biology teacher (the "trainer" for the football team) would make most of you skeptical such a person existed, let alone was allowed to teach in a school. But if you want to talk about serious subjects that probably aren't being taught and absolutely should be, the theory of evolution is it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I grew up in the refined and civilized north of Indiana and attended a crappy 1-A school. Our football coach U.S. History teacher who thought the Berlin Wall extended all the way around the nation of Eastern Germany, who covered the Civil War in one day because he fell behind on the syllabus, and who showed us more movies like Look Who's Talking than history documentaries, taught us about American slavery and that it was bad; we learned about the Holocaust and that it was bad.

Quite frankly, I'm still skeptical of anyone who says they weren't taught either of those things in a public school, no matter where they grew up. Of course, you don't need to have learned either of those things in school since it's nearly impossible to watch movies or TV or pop culture and not know about it. (The stats on people who can't tell you about it? Those don't mean they weren't taught it, it means they can't remember it or didn't pay attention.)

We never learned about evolution, though, in any of my science classes (I knew the basics but would have loved to have learned more which I didn't do until well out of school). Of course, the stories I could tell about the Barney Fife-like biology teacher (the "trainer" for the football team) would make most of you skeptical such a person existed, let alone was allowed to teach in a school. But if you want to talk about serious subjects that probably aren't being taught and absolutely should be, the theory of evolution is it.

Yeah ditto. 12 years of Catholic school and no evolution.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Everything always boils down to parenting. My kid is only a 5th grader and already aware and relatively knowledgeable. We are members of the Jewish Federation here and I took her to their museum and talked with her about it as we looked through the exhibits. I'm an excellent parent

You'll be so proud when they wheel you and the oxygen tank in for her HS graduation.

 

[mcmurtry66]

You'll be so proud when they wheel you and the oxygen tank in for her HS graduation.

I just spit my drink on my shirt.

 

[BCCHoosier]

I just spit my drink on my shirt.

That did make me laugh much harder than today's Friday Funny over at Andy's OTF.

 

[Cortez88]

If you can get to the museum in DC you both won't forget it.

The train cars with the shoes still impacts me today and I was last there over 20 years ago. The whole experience was incredibly impactful for me.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Yeah ditto. 12 years of Catholic school and no evolution.

I do recall that in 4th grade Sister Mary Margaret was pretty close to Peking Man stage.

 

[hoot1]

Shouldn't our communities, states, and country all be promoting the concept of learning while keeping an open mind being a lifetime adventure?

With this in mind every American can go well beyond whatever their parents and educators taught them. Thus whatever Tennessee children were taught or not taught, is a drop in the bucket compared to a lifetime of learning with an open mind.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I do recall that in 4th grade Sister Mary Margaret was pretty close to Peking Man stage.

WHO IS JESUS?!
I DON'T KNOW!!
WHACK
WHO IS JESUS?!
I DON'T KNOW!!!
THUMP

Were you there when they crucified my Lord...
I was there when they crucified my Lord
WHACK THUMP WHACK

Those days weren't for the faint of heart

 

[jet812]

I grew up in Spencer County, on the Ohio River. I learned all about the Holocaust and evolution. In high school.

You must be from Tell City. Or worse.

I don’t believe for one second he went through school not learning about the Holocaust…even if he is a TC river rat.

 

[DANC]

Growing up in rural southern Indiana there were many things I basically wasn't taught at all in the 70s. The Holocaust was one. The theory of evolution was another. Just crazy. Teaching any type of biology and ignoring evolution is like teaching physics and ignoring math, or teaching English Composition and ignoring all rules of grammar.

That explains a lot.

 

[outside shooter]

Quite frankly, I'm still skeptical of anyone who says they weren't taught either of those things in a public school, no matter where they grew up.

I'm dead serious about evolution.

I am sure, though, that the Holocaust was covered to some small extent and mentioned a day or two in the history classes, but I don't recall reading The Diary of Anne Frank or any other material to make it feel real. And it certainly wasn't covered to the extent that it should be.

In terms of African American issues I am damn sure that things like the Tulsa Race Massacre or even the Civil Rights Marches of the 60s were never brought up. I remember learning about the Underground railroad (something that makes southern Indiana look good), reading Huck Finn, and I was in high school when the TV version of Roots was on (1977), and I recall that being discussed to at least some extent.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

My stoker taught Jr high Lit and language arts. This was 30 years ago. I mentioned this thread to her. Her literature focus was about growing up and character. She taught A Day No Pigs Would Die to every class—her favorite growing up book. . She taught a lot of Steinbeck and Orwell too. Also The Yearling and history and some biographies. . She also received complaints about some of the animal reproductive passages in books. . I guess my point is not the the Holocaust is unimportant. But at the junior high age there is so much other literature geared to growing up and problems kids face every year that is better. I have the impression that including any Holocaust book at this age is in furtherance of a different agenda related to the victim/perp mentality that dominates so much social interaction nowadays. I think there are other different and higher priorities for Jr. high kids.

One more thing. I know there are a few in this thread who will see this post as a defense of the school board. You’d be wrong.

Wow. Simply pathetic. Disappointing. Unsurprising.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I'm looking forward to Masa's opinion on this topic.

I'm wondering if he lives in Tennessee and serves on a school board...

 

[larsIU]

You'll be so proud when they wheel you and the oxygen tank in for her HS graduation.

What about when the younger one graduates? Zoom call from the nursing home?

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I'm dead serious about evolution.

I am sure, though, that the Holocaust was covered to some small extent and mentioned a day or two in the history classes, but I don't recall reading The Diary of Anne Frank or any other material to make it feel real. And it certainly wasn't covered to the extent that it should be.

In terms of African American issues I am damn sure that things like the Tulsa Race Massacre or even the Civil Rights Marches of the 60s were never brought up. I remember learning about the Underground railroad (something that makes southern Indiana look good), reading Huck Finn, and I was in high school when the TV version of Roots was on (1977), and I recall that being discussed to at least some extent.

Even when I was in school, US History was a one year course.

School started after Labor Day, and ran 15 weeks in first semester (until Christmas-NY break), and then ran 18-19 weeks (depending on the schools system) second semester - taking out Spring Break. Take out a few holidays, a few snow days, and you had basically 33 weeks tops.

5 days a week = 165 classes.

50. minutes per day.

To cover 350+ years.



No high school is gonna teach Tulsa in that time. Also aren't gonna teach a lot of other things. Lucky if all of WWI gets 2 days.


But I specifically remember pictures of Emmitt Till in my high school textbook. So was Rosa Parks and Bull Connor. Of course MLK. And even Marcus Garvey.

So was this picture:

Also, because of where I lived, when I fished Clover Creek or Deer Creek, I drove past the farm where the slaves fictionalized in Uncle Tom's Cabin had lived.

And I visited Lincoln's Indiana boyhood home in Spencer County too many times to count.

Virtually every Indiana river town has a monument where Lincoln allegedly boarded a flatboat to go to New Orleans, saw slave markets, and vowed to end slavery. So did mine.

So the idea that I was deprived of a look at the reality of slavery and/or post-war racism because I was a white guy is an insult to all intelligent people. It was taught. It. was memorialized. You couldn't escape it if you tried. Even the existence of Confederate statues in Southern towns made you face it.

And in our home, there was a copy of my great great grandfather's discharge from the Union army hanging on the wall. He lived in Kentucky and fought for the Union - as an unmounted cavalry - which meant he was too poor to own a horse.

 

[DANC]

I'm dead serious about evolution.

I am sure, though, that the Holocaust was covered to some small extent and mentioned a day or two in the history classes, but I don't recall reading The Diary of Anne Frank or any other material to make it feel real. And it certainly wasn't covered to the extent that it should be.

In terms of African American issues I am damn sure that things like the Tulsa Race Massacre or even the Civil Rights Marches of the 60s were never brought up. I remember learning about the Underground railroad (something that makes southern Indiana look good), reading Huck Finn, and I was in high school when the TV version of Roots was on (1977), and I recall that being discussed to at least some extent.

Sounds to me like you should have visited the library more often and treated education as your responsibility instead of just showing up for class.

There are a lot of things you can learn by reading on your own without having to be spoon-fed.

 

[outside shooter]

Usually English Lit classes pick up some of the slack and teach the Diary of Ann Frank and (now) The Boy in the Striped Pajamas and other such generally accessible works. History classes are generally more tied to the textbooks and have a time crunch, as MTIOTF stated.

I do recall spending more time on the Civil War than on all other wars & conflicts, but not really from an AA perspective, for sure, other than that of course the Confederacy was the definite bad guy.