Archie loses out to end the season with no postseason.
Tom Allen - Hold my beer
Mike Woodson - No, hold my beer.
Tom Allen - Hold my beer
Mike Woodson - No, hold my beer.
Archie losing out to end the season
- Thread starter ufo33
- Start date
It's pretty frustrating, obviously. But this is why I had tempered expectations coming into the season. Mike Woodson inherited a mess -- just as Archie, Crean, and Sampson inherited messes.
I still think Glass should've cut Archie loose after the 2019-20 season. But he made that a practical impossibility by (a) declaring before the season that it wasn't a "make or break" season for Archie, and (b) scheduling his retirement for May after the season. Thanks, Fred.
It was abundantly clear by that time that Archie Miller was a failed coach. But, for reasons I'll never understand, the prevailing school of thought is that a coach *must* get 4 years, regardless how things go in those 4 years. So Archie got a 4th year and performed about the way we should expect.
I was cautiously optimistic about the Woodson hire when it was made. And I still am, despite the likelihood that we'll be watching the tournament yet again.
But it's incredibly important for him to have a successful off-season in roster rehabilitation.
I still think Glass should've cut Archie loose after the 2019-20 season. But he made that a practical impossibility by (a) declaring before the season that it wasn't a "make or break" season for Archie, and (b) scheduling his retirement for May after the season. Thanks, Fred.
It was abundantly clear by that time that Archie Miller was a failed coach. But, for reasons I'll never understand, the prevailing school of thought is that a coach *must* get 4 years, regardless how things go in those 4 years. So Archie got a 4th year and performed about the way we should expect.
I was cautiously optimistic about the Woodson hire when it was made. And I still am, despite the likelihood that we'll be watching the tournament yet again.
But it's incredibly important for him to have a successful off-season in roster rehabilitation.
To say he inherited a mess is a cop out. Many of the well known pundits say this team should 100% be able to make the NCAA tourney. I mean we have an all american for crying out loud. Yes the team is flawed but do not pretend Woodson inherited a complete mess he did not and he brought in several of the starters himself.
And yes Archie should have been gone after three years but the you got to give him time to get in his own players crowd wanted him to get four or even five years. What mess did sampson inherit? He had us in the second round of the ncaa in year one. And I am convinced even if Woodson in tanking he will get four or five years simply because he is an IU guy and they will not want to fire one of their own.
It’s an absolute dumpster fire again. How do we have Stewart heaving prayers with 10 seconds on the clock down 3? AFTER A TIMEOUT. This is inexcusable. I’ve tried to be optimistic about Woodson but it’s getting tougher.
I am also still optimistic. Hell we have a proven NBA head coach, a high level College head coach, 2 future college head coaches, and a great long term assistant all on this staff. No matter how people want to spin this, it’s not bad coaches on this team.
Our roster is a complete mess. Kopp is on Woodson ultimately but the fact that Stewart and Kopp are averaging half off the offensive production (points and assists) of last years combination of Durham/Franklin is astounding to me.
I hate to admit it because I love and support our players but Race and Trayce are the only two legitimate starters on top Big Ten teams and both of them have serious holes in their offensive game as well. I mean TJD might be 3rd on Purdue’s depth chart at the 5.
I still think we can play well and compete with anyone but our inconsistency on the perimeter is killing us. As much as some want to rag on Bates and Galloway, I think as starters next year they will be huge upgrades over Stewart and Kopp, probably doubling their offensive production and keeping defense high. We need Hood-Schifino, Gunn, and Banks to be able to contribute some and others to grow as well.
Unlike some people on these boards I am not reading that anyone thinks we will be better because TJD leaves. But it is my opinion that getting away from two post players who cannot spread a defense out will do wonders for the type of perimeter players that Woodson and staff wants to bring in.
This….. our whinny fan base wants success immediately. I’m giving him a few years first.
You should have heard Ryan Phillips on the Assembly Call.He simply could not believe those calls out of the timeouts and the fact Woodson runs nothing during the game to get this three point shooters open. As he has stated a million times it was an absolute must for this team to make the ncca and anything less is a complete failure with this roster.
It will be interesting to see if any assistant coaches leave after the season. If they do that’s another red flag.
Ryan Phillips@RumorsandRants·
15hIndiana throws away yet another winnable game. Becoming a feature of the program in Woodson’s first year. What a disaster.
#iubb2918234Ryan Phillips@RumorsandRants·15hIndiana’s late game offense has been atrocious. Horrid execution with the game on the line. #iubb
15hIndiana throws away yet another winnable game. Becoming a feature of the program in Woodson’s first year. What a disaster.
#iubb2918234Ryan Phillips@RumorsandRants·15hIndiana’s late game offense has been atrocious. Horrid execution with the game on the line. #iubb
True and it doesn't just have to be transfer portal, there's still institutions know as junior colleges and we have one of the best of them in-state. Those guys are there because of grades, not bad behavior or jumping ship off bad teams. Grades are teachable with things like tutors that I think the athletic department still maintains.
Keith Smart, Dean Garrett, Shawn Marion, Gladness and the other TX guard that came with him, even Devon Dumas, murder notwithstanding, he was pretty good for a junior college pickup
Stewart and Kopp can hit shots, you just have to run an offense that gets them open shots. As much as it pains me to say it, Sasha on PU gets open shots because their offense creates open shots for him: he isn't very athletic. IU has post players that demand double teams: somebody should be open. IU can move on offense much better than they have been, and it is certainly possible to set a screen for somebody.
The fact is that Woody isn't running an offense any better than Archie did. If Woody starts bringing in a bunch of players that are more versatile on offense, great: I can't wait. Until then, he is going to have to play the hand he has been dealt better. Woody has bigger problems than players getting back to the hotel 15 minutes late.
Cop out or not, it's the undeniable truth.
I'm not saying this to relieve CMW of any accountability. I'm simply saying that grading any new coach's performance in his first years must take into account what was there on day 1. And keep in mind, too, that the recruiting process has lag/lead time. You don't just come in and land big unexpected fish -- with the rare exception of a Tamar Bates situation. If Shaka Smart was still at Texas, Tamar wouldn't be here.
Few here were more vocal about wanting Archie fired after Year 3 than I was. So it's not like I have an unlimited amount of patience for poor/middling performance. I don't. But I do have some.
We live in an age of instant gratification and there are times when you have to remind yourself that some things still take time. This is one of them.
Zero reason this team should not make the NCAA tournament. I have yet to read a sports writing who disagrees with what I just said. If you cannot make the NCAA with an all american on your team something is wrong. You act is if this is a crean year one roster.
We have not made an NCAA is six years so I think IU fans are pretty darn patient and not instant gradification. This team had the best chance to make it in awhile so yes people expected them to make it period and they have way underachieved.
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And, if there is anything you'd think would be easy to encourage your players to practice, wouldn't it be shooting?
Players hate running those lines. They often hate drilling and playing defense. But who doesn't like shooting?
Dead on. Nobody gives up on a coach after a year unless there are other major underlying issues. Like it or not Woody inherited a roster that did not make the tournament last year and lost 2 starters and their replacements are downgrades.
I have seen several posts in these forums today that said this is a top 25 roster and there is no excuse for missing the tournament. Unfortunately that is just crazy talk. Maybe (huge maybe) this roster was thought to be top 25 coming into the season. But TJD is realistically the only top 25 player at his position. All other starters are 50 and below. Some probably below top 100 at their position. No way are we a top 25 roster after seeing these guys play all year.
There is reason to be hopeful going forward. Bates was a to 25 recruit. Hood-Schifino is as well. Gunn looks like the type of perimeter player we need. Woody is recruiting well and hopefully that continues because if imo we are not even close to a top 25 roster now. Maybe to 50-75.
I've never said that we shouldn't. I've simply pointed out that Woodson inherited a mess. It doesn't have to be 2008-9 level of a mess to still be a mess.
So, yeah, there's a good argument to be made that this team has performed below expectations. But, considering where we were, I came into this figuring it was going to be a pretty bumpy road back.
It's been since Yogi was here that we had high level guard play. TJD is a solid 4, but our roster falls off pretty significantly from there. Everybody was hoping that Lander would be a major contributor. But he was clearly overrated -- and never should've come out of HS early.
There's no reason to be throwing rocks at the staff right now. We not only have Woodson and his NBA pedigree, we also have the likes of Matta, Fife, and Hunter. I'm confident that they'll get this ship righted. But it's going to take some time.
Purdue has 4 guys that hit at least 40% +on the floor at all times 8 on the roster hit 40% or better. Way different than us. We have one 40% and one 36-37% shooter. The rest get sagged off of. Wisconsin sagged off everyone except Parker at the end. Major difference. It doesn’t matter what offense we run if we can’t shoot.
There's no question that poor outside shooting has plagued our team for years -- and in ways beyond just the missed shots. I completely get the frustration that it hasn't been adequately addressed.
But it's just one more sour legacy from hanging on to Archie longer than we should have.
I think woody tried but these guys are just ok-bad shooters. I think it’s being addressed hopefully.
Of course he tried. Heck, Archie tried to address it. You don't have to be John Wooden to recognize that chronic poor perimeter shooting has hobbled so much of what we want to do offensively.
But, even with the transfer portal, you can't just upgrade your roster overnight. It's being addressed -- hopefully more successfully this time.
To be critical of a coach and his in game decisions is not giving up on a coach. Boy I would be concerned if people were not critical after a four game losing streak. That would mean we are nothing but a sunshine and rainbows crowd. And of course when you have a coach who has never every coached in college you have nothing to base his performance against so we really have no idea what the future holds. And saying we do is just not being honest. You say Bates is top 25 recruit but he barely plays. He may end up being good but right now he is a role player who cannot get minutes over the guys you claim are below top 100 in their position. If he was a legit five star he would be getting the minutes over stewart and kopp but clearly he is not ready yet.
The obvious blood red flag is the offense.
Off rating and (rank)
2018: 109.4 (92)
2019: 109.1 (82)
2020: 108.5 (65)
2021: 109.1 (70)
2022: 105.7 (112)!!!!!
From a team that probably has more twenty year olds than 95% of total, our offensive rating is worse than the Archie era, which sucked.
Defense is fine. It's more than fine but Woodson has got to get his offense figured out for the college game or we're probably looking at more pain in the future.
Maybe this 4 out, 1 in magical offense will reveal itself once Trayce and Race move on but....I don't see our offense take off when Race sits and the 6'6" Geronimo comes in (who is a decent three point shooter) so, I have my doubts.
My biggest worry if we miss the tournament is momentum. We needed Woody to have a good to great season as he's an unknown and he's old.
Pat Ewing is having trouble getting momentum at G-town. He quote is 'I get a lot of dads who want to commit to me'. They both have similar backgrounds (star alumni, long time NBA assistants, new to college coaching).
Georgetown is currently 209th.
So yeah, missing the tournament would be um, not good.
Off rating and (rank)
2018: 109.4 (92)
2019: 109.1 (82)
2020: 108.5 (65)
2021: 109.1 (70)
2022: 105.7 (112)!!!!!
From a team that probably has more twenty year olds than 95% of total, our offensive rating is worse than the Archie era, which sucked.
Defense is fine. It's more than fine but Woodson has got to get his offense figured out for the college game or we're probably looking at more pain in the future.
Maybe this 4 out, 1 in magical offense will reveal itself once Trayce and Race move on but....I don't see our offense take off when Race sits and the 6'6" Geronimo comes in (who is a decent three point shooter) so, I have my doubts.
My biggest worry if we miss the tournament is momentum. We needed Woody to have a good to great season as he's an unknown and he's old.
Pat Ewing is having trouble getting momentum at G-town. He quote is 'I get a lot of dads who want to commit to me'. They both have similar backgrounds (star alumni, long time NBA assistants, new to college coaching).
Georgetown is currently 209th.
So yeah, missing the tournament would be um, not good.
NBA coaches coming to college and winning has an awful track record. And no not Calipari or Pitino who started in college first. The NBA game does not often translate so if you are unwilling to make adjustments you may end up in trouble. None of these NBA guys have trouble getting the recruits its the winning with the NBA style . Look at Penny he gets all kinds of five stars and still cannot make the tourney. The only example I can think of who won is Juwuan who came to college and won but it is still early on is his career so who knows if he can sustain it or not.
The other thing working against Woodson is his age he is not 48 like Juwuan se he needs to get it fixed pretty quick as time is not on his side age wise.
I mean look at these records not impressive. Penny's is more impressive but given the level of talent he landed and the conference he is in he should make the NCAA every single year.
| Season | School | Conf | G | W | L | W-L% | SRS | SOS | AP Pre | AP High | AP Final | Notes | Adjusted |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2017-18 | Georgetown | Big East | 30 | 15 | 15 | .500 | 7.16 | 5.29 | |||||
| 2018-19 | Georgetown | Big East | 33 | 19 | 14 | .576 | 6.80 | 5.31 | |||||
| 2019-20 | Georgetown | Big East | 32 | 15 | 17 | .469 | 10.38 | 9.60 | |||||
| 2020-21 | Georgetown | Big East | 26 | 13 | 13 | .500 | 10.13 | 10.36 | Conf. Tournament Champion; NCAA Tournament | ||||
| 2021-22 | Georgetown | Big East | 24 | 6 | 18 | .250 | 0.67 | 6.2 |
Statistics overview
| Season | Team | Overall | Conference | Standing | Postseason |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Memphis Tigers (American Athletic Conference) (2018–present) | |||||
| 2018–19 | Memphis | 22–14 | 11–7 | 5th | NIT Second Round |
| 2019–20 | Memphis | 21–10 | 10–8 | T–5th | Postseason cancelled |
| 2020–21 | Memphis | 20–8 | 11–4 | 3rd | NIT Champion |
| 2021–22 | Memphis | 14–8 | 8–4 | ||
| Memphis: | 77–40 (.658) | 40–23 (.635) | |||
| Total: | 77–40 (.658) |
Yes (and thanks for posting, BTW), I agree on the momentum comment. We need it for recruiting and potentially retaining players that we want to retain.
clearly Woody and staff/admin are trying to get a culture change. That is difficult enough without having a huge roster turnover and patching with short term fixes.
Yes, we are long in the tooth and experienced, but we have been stuck on recruiting short term fixes for a while now.
It's a long time stigma going both ways....NBA doesn't translate to college and college doesn't translate to the NBA.
Howard was the recent success that was pointed to, and he's been great, but there is a graveyard of NBA coaches who struggled (and vice versa) so.....yikes, maybe?
Thanks for the shout out .Gerdis.
Really hoping this Woodson to possibly Fife thing works out and we can get some consistency and not have to worry about the program.
There are 24 hours worth of posts blasting the coaches for playing anyone but TJD and Race. Kind of speaks volumes about where this current roster is at.
Immediately?! WT? IU has missed the tourney 5 straight years , that's not immediate expectations! Heck maybe by 2028 we will make the tourney.
So, you are basically the anti- Cav? You seem to have a totally different perception of the roster than him.
I love Cav’s optimism and how much he roots for IU. Yes he and I see things differently on a number of our players. I agree with him on some too though. I think Woodson found a player in Bates but I just never thought he was an instant impact guy who would be one and done. I was opposed to a lot of what Cav said about Rob last year but he has come around on that.
I guess I would say I root for Cav to be right mostly. But i do not think we are even close to a top 25 roster this year.
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