A Golden Dome: can the US afford it and is it even needed?

[BradStevens]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

I thought Trump was more into golden showers.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

We are 36 trillion dollars in debt, he wants to take over Greenland, the Panama Canal, Canada and now build a ****ing IRON DOME!!!!

It's no wonder he ****ing was dumb enough to bankrupt a ****ing casino.

 

[BradStevens]

I thought Trump was more into golden showers.

We are 36 trillion dollars in debt, he wants to take over Greenland, the Panama Canal, Canada and now build a ****ing IRON DOME!!!!

It's no wonder he ****ing was dumb enough to bankrupt a ****ing casino.

Could we focus on the ideas rather than the person advancing it?

 

[76-1]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

Actually that SDI money wasn't wasted... The research done on It formed the foundation for many of our current missile defense systems...

I suppose the calculation is: How much is the population of NYC, D.C., or LA & San Diego worth...?

The way to go about would be the way the Marine Corps approaches things when they're forced to go on the defensive... They don't try to defend everything but instead set up a series of mutually supporting strong points with as much depth as possible...

Defending every inch of the US is impractical but defending important points as in depth as possible might be workable...

For instance: an initial defensive array set up for an area extending north from the Camp Lejune area all the way to Baltimore and D.C. would be my preferred placement... Then the greater LA & San Diego area next, then rest of the key early response military bases, Special Operations first then the Air Force and Army inland, (such as Pope, Bragg, Wright-Patt. etc...) and finally, NYC (just because it's every bad guys favorite target)...

Now that's a Lot, but it's not everywhere and it might actually be doable...

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

I disagree that SDI was a boondoggle. Many of our weapons capabilities came out of that program. That includes the capability to shoot down ballistic missiles which most of our destroyers are capable of doing. We have many other missile defense systems that evolved out of the SDI program. Patriot is one. Israel's Iron Dome is another. We have better radars and sensor capabilities which also came from the SDI program.

The Golden Dome is supposed to be something like Israel's Iron Dome. Israel is a small country and a system like theirs for the US would be massive and massively expensive.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Could we focus on the ideas rather than the person advancing it?

 

[BradStevens]

I disagree that SDI was a boondoggle. Many of our weapons capabilities came out of that program. That includes the capability to shoot down ballistic missiles which most of are destroyers are capable of doing. We have many other missile defense systems that evolved out of the SDI program. Patriot is one. Israel's Iron Dome is another. We have better radars and sensor capabilities which also came from the SDI program.

The Golden Dome is supposed to be something like Israel's Iron Dome. Israel is a small country and a system like theirs for the US would be massive and massively expensive.

Bad logic. You're assuming we couldn't have developed better defense systems, radar, sensor capabilities, etc. without SDI.

 

[76-1]

I disagree that SDI was a boondoggle. Many of our weapons capabilities came out of that program. That includes the capability to shoot down ballistic missiles which most of are destroyers are capable of doing. We have many other missile defense systems that evolved out of the SDI program. Patriot is one. Israel's Iron Dome is another. We have better radars and sensor capabilities which also came from the SDI program.

The Golden Dome is supposed to be something like Israel's Iron Dome. Israel is a small country and a system like theirs for the US would be massive and massively expensive.

I left off the sub bases in WA & CT & SC (and the others I'm unaware of...)..,

I would like to think that given all the aid we've sent Israelis way we ought to be able to get a deal on "Iron Dome" technology and perhaps even some hands on help in its initial deployment and operation while we were attempting to improve on that tech...

Maybe we could even get a bigger $ break if we agreed to share our upgrades with them...

I'm also of the opinion that we ought to have something similar to the Aegis systems cruising off our major seaports ASAP...

 

[BradStevens]

I disagree that SDI was a boondoggle. Many of our weapons capabilities came out of that program. That includes the capability to shoot down ballistic missiles which most of are destroyers are capable of doing. We have many other missile defense systems that evolved out of the SDI program. Patriot is one. Israel's Iron Dome is another. We have better radars and sensor capabilities which also came from the SDI program.

The Golden Dome is supposed to be something like Israel's Iron Dome. Israel is a small country and a system like theirs for the US would be massive and massively expensive.

So: is it needed and can we afford it?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Bad logic. You're assuming we couldn't have developed better defense systems, radar, sensor capabilities, etc. without SDI.

No, I'm saying that the focus on SDI and the combined effort spent on it quickly evolved into better weapons systems that may not have occurred with each service doing its own thing. In fact, it was probably also cheaper to have this combined effort than separate efforts.

 

[outside shooter]

Could we focus on the ideas rather than the person advancing it?

OK, focus on the idea of supposedly saving trillions of dollars, while also raising the debt ceiling by $4 trillion.

The idea is not to reduce the debt one iota.

The idea is to allow the debt to grow unabated, shifting some expenses to checks in the mail with a big beautiful signature on them, while also reducing payments by the ultra-rich, and also spending money on big-ticket defense issues like a golden dome.

 

[BradStevens]

No, I'm saying that the focus on SDI and the combined effort spent on it quickly evolved into better weapons systems that may not have occurred with each service doing its own thing. In fact, it was probably also cheaper to have this combined effort than separate efforts.

This article says we've spent $250 billion, and says it is separate from things like the Patriot system. And what is the success rate for that $250 billion? "They have worked 12 times out of 21 tests, a paltry success rate achieved only after $250 billion spent since their 1985 beginning. This illustrates the intrinsic, expensive difficulty of intercepting even dummy intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). It’s just hard to hit them."

It was a boondoggle.

Current U.S. Missile Defense Programs at a Glance | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

Trump’s ‘Iron Dome’ Space Weapons Plan Ignores Physics and Fiscal Reality

Proposed U.S. space defenses against hypersonic nuclear missiles are unnecessary, impractical and would trigger a dangerous new arms race

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

So: is it needed and can we afford it?

Golden Dome? I agree with 76-1 that we would have to focus on certain areas rather than the entire country like Israel does. We already have some capability to do that. There are some specific air defense systems that are already deployed.

 

[mcmurtry66]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

It’s in keeping with isolation tariffs and independence. Leaving aside the obscene money is it even something that would work

 

[mcmurtry66]

Golden Dome? I agree with 76-1 that we would have to focus on certain areas rather than the entire country like Israel does. We already have some capability to do that. There are some specific air defense systems that are already deployed.

Was Israel’s a success?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

This article says we've spent $250 billion, and says it is separate from things like the Patriot system. And what is the success rate for that $250 billion? "They have worked 12 times out of 21 tests, a paltry success rate achieved only after $250 billion spent since their 1985 beginning. This illustrates the intrinsic, expensive difficulty of intercepting even dummy intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). It’s just hard to hit them."

It was a boondoggle.

Current U.S. Missile Defense Programs at a Glance | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

Trump’s ‘Iron Dome’ Space Weapons Plan Ignores Physics and Fiscal Reality

Proposed U.S. space defenses against hypersonic nuclear missiles are unnecessary, impractical and would trigger a dangerous new arms race

www.scientificamerican.com

$250 billion over 38 years is far cheaper than I thought it was. The shipboard systems definitely benefitted from SDI.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

which most of are destroyers

Our

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Was Israel’s a success?

Well, they've successfully defeated two mass missile attacks since 7 Oct 2023 and several smaller missile attacks. US and ally shipboard and aircraft missile defense systems were also successful against missile attacks. Wars provide the best tests of systems.

 

[76-1]

Was Israel’s a success?

This past October Iran sent over 200 missiles into Israel with (as best as I can recall) only one Israeli casualty... I'd call that a success (since I'm not related to the casualty)... Certainly it was a better outcome than several smoking cities and the casualties related to that type of outcome..

 

[BradStevens]

Well, they've successfully defeated two mass missile attacks since 7 Oct 2023 and several smaller missile attacks. US and ally shipboard and aircraft missile defense systems were also successful against missile attacks. Wars provide the best tests of systems.

Not the same thing as what SDI or the Golden Dome would be designed for. Iron Dome didn't develop out of SDI.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I thought Trump was more into golden showers.

 

[BradStevens]

It’s in keeping with isolation tariffs and independence. Leaving aside the obscene money is it even something that would work

Is it? I've heard one of the arguments in favor of isolationism is that we don't stir up enmity across the globe vs. always getting involved in other nation's disputes. I think Trump has argued that point before, although I don't expect him to be consistent on much.

Everyone complains about our national deficit and debt, yet the administration is considering a possible $2.5 trillion outlay on something that might not work for something that will probably never have to be dealt with? When was the last time the US city had a missile fired at it?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Not the same thing as what SDI or the Golden Dome would be designed for. Iron Dome didn't develop out of SDI.

Yes, but technology is transferrable. Technology developed during the SDI program most certainly was transferred to the US Navy's ship-based systems (keeping with a system I have knowledge of) and I'm fairly certain it transferred to other missile defense systems.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Is it? I've heard one of the arguments in favor of isolationism is that we don't stir up enmity across the globe vs. always getting involved in other nation's disputes. I think Trump has argued that point before, although I don't expect him to be consistent on much.

Everyone complains about our national deficit and debt, yet the administration is considering a possible $2.5 trillion outlay on something that might not work for something that will probably never have to be dealt with? When was the last time the US city had a missile fired at it?

Yep you constantly hear our presence is what pisses so many off. So if we’re not there and they’re not pissed why do we need a dome. Nuke deterrent should be enough

 

[bailey777]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

I mean given the trillions we waste on complete nonsense and woke bs why are we suddenly concerned about not being able to afford something.

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

Is it? I've heard one of the arguments in favor of isolationism is that we don't stir up enmity across the globe vs. always getting involved in other nation's disputes. I think Trump has argued that point before, although I don't expect him to be consistent on much.

Everyone complains about our national deficit and debt, yet the administration is considering a possible $2.5 trillion outlay on something that might not work for something that will probably never have to be dealt with? When was the last time the US city had a missile fired at it?

When was the last time Russia was at war and China threatening to go to ?

 

[hoot1]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

Here we are talking about defense against missiles and we haven't come to a consensus on how to deal with another biological attack such as Covid.

From strictly a cost factor, if I were a military enemy of the U.S. I would invest in biological weapons.

 

[BradStevens]

Yes, but technology is transferrable. Technology developed during the SDI program most certainly was transferred to the US Navy's ship-based systems (keeping with a system I have knowledge of) and I'm fairly certain it transferred to other missile defense systems.

Neither of us have any way of knowing if SDI was a "but for" cause of any tech currently used in our anti-ballistic systems. It's a counter-factual position. And even if it was, that doesn't mean it was worth the cost.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Actually that SDI money wasn't wasted... The research done on It formed the foundation for many of our current missile defense systems...

I think you're correct about this, 76-1. I read an article in one of the defense mags a few years ago about the genesis of current missile defense tech. And I recall noting that a lot of it came from that period of spending.

 

[BradStevens]

When was the last time Russia was at war and China threatening to go to ?

Against the United States in our country? Never.

 

[BradStevens]

I think you're correct about this, 76-1. I read an article in one of the defense mags a few years ago about the genesis of current missile defense tech. And I recall noting that a lot of it came from that period of spending.

We've been spending money on anti-missile defense research since the advent of the missile. SDI was a different beast.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

'Golden Dome' for US: Trump's mega defence plan explained - The Times of India

US News: President Trump has proposed a 'golden dome' missile defense shield, inspired by Israel's Iron Dome, to protect the US from advanced aerial threats. H

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Seems like a boondoggle of SDI-like proportions. The USA wasted hundreds of billions (when those numbers meant something) on this type of craziness in the 1980s. Are we really going to waste trillions on another attempt now?

One thing I can say is that nothing seems to drive Vladimir Putin more bonkers than missile defense. Maybe this is a feint?

 

[76-1]

Yep you constantly hear our presence is what pisses so many off. So if we’re not there and they’re not pissed why do we need a dome. Nuke deterrent should be enough

Don't slip off to the dark side of the fantasyland Democrats...😉🍺

There are groups of people and entire countries who find our very existence abhorrent and would happily attack us whether we were active in their region or not... Thats just reality...

 

[BradStevens]

One thing I can say is that nothing seems to drive Vladimir Putin more bonkers than missile defense. Maybe this is a feint?

Interesting idea.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

We've been spending money on anti-missile defense research since the advent of the missile. SDI was a different beast.

I'm saying that the article attributed the current state of technology to what went into SDI. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Here we are talking about defense against missiles and we haven't come to a consensus on how to deal with another biological attack such as Covid.

From strictly a cost factor, if I were a military enemy of the U.S. I would invest in biological weapons.

If we were to face a biological attack such as Covid. What would become of us?

Do we have enough advil and warm tea to withstand?

 

[mcmurtry66]

@DANC pretty good little thread here. Love to hear your military insight

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

When was the last time Russia was at war and China threatening to go to ?

Although there is no direct threat of them going to war against the US. There are many indirect threats for sure.

 

[76-1]

Here we are talking about defense against missiles and we haven't come to a consensus on how to deal with another biological attack such as Covid.

From strictly a cost factor, if I were a military enemy of the U.S. I would invest in biological weapons.

You're not wrong, and reinforcing our physical border security is a great first step... Incoming flight and port security enhancement are next... It's a multi-threat environment out there and to ignore any of them leaves us vulnerable...

It's a triage approach... Attack the greatest risks First and move on... They'll always be gaps...

I like this quote (that I won't put in quotes because I'm probably getting it a little wrong):

- Do what you can, with what you have, as well as you can, as soon you can... -

Now the budget question falls under the "with what you can" area...