What do we take away from the McKinney, Texas swimming pool incident?

[hoosboot]

We've seen a couple of different competing narratives popping up, so I can't help wondering how the McKinney, Texas swimming pool fracas fits into our national conversation on policing and race.

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

How does McKinney add to the dialogue? (and why hasn't anyone here been talking about it instead of talking about Dick from the internet?)

 

[Sope Creek]

We've seen a couple of different competing narratives popping up, so I can't help wondering how the McKinney, Texas swimming pool fracas fits into our national conversation on policing and race.

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

How does McKinney add to the dialogue? (and why hasn't anyone here been talking about it instead of talking about Dick from the internet?)

At this point, my take away is 11/12 . . .

. . . that is, 11 out of 12 officers who responded to the scene worked it in accordance with departmental policies and training, and the one guy who got out of control was essentially forced to resign because his performance was an unacceptable outlier.

That is a preliminary assessment, BTW, subject to change as additional facts come in, an investigation is conducted, and more analysis is made of the situation. But for the moment at least, I'm taking the police commissioner (I think that's who it was) at his word that 11/12 performed in accordance with policies and training, and the outlier performance has not been tolerated to the point where the officer felt compelled to resign his position.

More contemplation of this situation in light of other racially-sensitive incidents is needed, but if I were forced to bet right now I'd likely say that the McKinney police situation will prove to be normative by comparison, except for the guy who is no longer with the force.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We've seen a couple of different competing narratives popping up, so I can't help wondering how the McKinney, Texas swimming pool fracas fits into our national conversation on policing and race.

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

How does McKinney add to the dialogue? (and why hasn't anyone here been talking about it instead of talking about Dick from the internet?)

Nothing

The cop screwed up and he is history. End of story. The only narrative here is yet another example of blowing things out of proportion in order to further agitate.

Unfortunately there are racist cops. The problem is the many of us have lost the ability to separate racism from effective policing.

 

[toastedbread]

Nothing

The cop screwed up and he is history. End of story. The only narrative here is yet another example of blowing things out of proportion in order to further agitate.

Unfortunately there are racist cops. The problem is the many of us have lost the ability to separate racism from effective policing.

The cop blew it. We don't know if his animus was race. He is probably just a hothead.

One main item I haven't seen discussed is why Blacks in this country have trouble following the rules the same as everyone else? I.e. If you don't have a pool pass, don't jump the fence.

 

[Circlejoe]

Interesting incident. I think we'll see a variety of topics discussed, including relationships between minority populations and police, segregation through housing policy, and the regular conversation over racism. The town better be ready for a huge media presence. They're in the spotlight.

It will be very interesting to see what becomes of the police officer who resigned. Will he fade away quietly and try to correct his mistake, or will he become a commentator for how cops are not supported in a tough environment.

 

[Circlejoe]

The cop blew it. We don't know if his animus was race. He is probably just a hothead.

One main item I haven't seen discussed is why Blacks in this country have trouble following the rules the same as everyone else? I.e. If you don't have a pool pass, don't jump the fence.

Spoken like a true racist! Congratulations. You keep your reputation alive.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

One main item I haven't seen discussed is why Blacks in this country have trouble following the rules the same as everyone else? I.e. If you don't have a pool pass, don't jump the fence.

So, if cops do treat blacks differently as a whole, that's justified because blacks are worse people?

That's what that sounds like.

I'm sure that enforcement of certain rules is going to hit different groups of people differently. My experience at the local Dollar General says that if they actually enforced parking regulations (e.g., ticketing people for parking in handicap spots without a tag and so forth), it would be almost exclusively nicely-dressed black ladies in SUVs who got tickets. But that's a far cry from suggesting that, should one of those ladies get beaten up by a cop, it's her fault for parking there in the first place.

 

[toastedbread]

Spoken like a true racist! Congratulations. You keep your reputation alive.

Statistics, not racism.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Facts aren't racist buddy.

 

[toastedbread]

So, if cops do treat blacks differently as a whole, that's justified because blacks are worse people?

That's what that sounds like.

I'm sure that enforcement of certain rules is going to hit different groups of people differently. My experience at the local Dollar General says that if they actually enforced parking regulations (e.g., ticketing people for parking in handicap spots without a tag and so forth), it would be almost exclusively nicely-dressed black ladies in SUVs who got tickets. But that's a far cry from suggesting that, should one of those ladies get beaten up by a cop, it's her fault for parking there in the first place.

Cops should treat everyone the same. There are 2 issues here. The cop resigned. Poor police treatment is not the reason that blacks commit more crime. My question is why per capita are blacks unable to follow the rules at the same rate as everyone else?

 

[Sope Creek]

Statistics, not racism.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Facts aren't racist buddy.

I looked through your link . . . where exactly was the category "jumping the fence without a pool pass"?

CJ was spot on with his characterization of that post of yours as an indicator of racism, toasted. And your "facts aren't racist" defense is square in that space too.

You remain self-absorbed and self-unaware, because you clearly have issues with races other than your own in a variety of contexts.

 

[toastedbread]

I looked through your link . . . where exactly was the category "jumping the fence without a pool pass"?

CJ was spot on with his characterization of that post of yours as an indicator of racism, toasted. And your "facts aren't racist" defense is square in that space too.

You remain self-absorbed and self-unaware, because you clearly have issues with races other than your own in a variety of contexts.

I don't care about this incident nor the pool pass. This whole controversy is stupid. The cop was a hot head and resigned.

My point is simple. Why are blacks in this country more likely to commit crime per capita? And they are committing crimes at nearly double population size per capita.

Do you believe the only explanation to be police looking for more black offenders? That would clearly be a case of institutional racism.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't care about this incident nor the pool pass. This whole controversy is stupid. The cop was a hot head and resigned.

My point is simple. Why are blacks in this country more likely to commit crime per capita? And they are committing crimes at nearly double population size per capita.

Do you believe the only explanation to be police looking for more black offenders? That would clearly be a case of institutional racism.

There is also ample evidence that poverty breeds crime. I can't find that FBI data normalized for poverty. Are blacks living in poverty more susceptible to crime than whites (or anyone else)? I don't know. Does anyone have numbers on that? If poverty plays a role in criminal behavior, than any group that has a higher percentage in poverty will have a higher percentage committing crime.

Then of course there is the argument we tend to either make black activities criminal, or more harshly punishable. Two examples. One is marijuana. Blacks were more likely to use pot than whites. Pot was made illegal. Alcohol, with similar impact on judgement and reason, was not. Second is crack cocaine. We made using crack cocaine's punishment FAR more than normal cocaine. Guess who used crack cocaine and who used other forms. And, several studies have shown crack was not worse than any other kind. We weren't sticking the stock broker in jail for snorting coke nearly as long as were were the black for using crack. Over the course of dozens of years and tens of thousands of arrests, those numbers add up. One group was paying a higher price in the war on drugs than another group for exactly the same crime.

 

[hoosboot]

At this point, my take away is 11/12 . . .

. . . that is, 11 out of 12 officers who responded to the scene worked it in accordance with departmental policies and training, and the one guy who got out of control was essentially forced to resign because his performance was an unacceptable outlier.

That is a preliminary assessment, BTW, subject to change as additional facts come in, an investigation is conducted, and more analysis is made of the situation. But for the moment at least, I'm taking the police commissioner (I think that's who it was) at his word that 11/12 performed in accordance with policies and training, and the outlier performance has not been tolerated to the point where the officer felt compelled to resign his position.

More contemplation of this situation in light of other racially-sensitive incidents is needed, but if I were forced to bet right now I'd likely say that the McKinney police situation will prove to be normative by comparison, except for the guy who is no longer with the force.

That's an interesting reply, Sope, and one that I think often gets lost in these incidents. We obviously hold police to a higher than 11/12 standard. Is that enough? Are we generally meeting that higher standard?

Another issue I find interesting in this that no one has touched on is the alleged comments by the (white?) adult women that appear to have led to the confrontation and the police being called. We are more focused on the police officer's bad behavior (which led to his resignation) and seem to be glossing over what led to the police being called. I'm sure having video of one and not the other is behind this, but I'm just as interested in what happened before the police came.

 

[hoosboot]

There is also ample evidence that poverty breeds crime. I can't find that FBI data normalized for poverty. Are blacks living in poverty more susceptible to crime than whites (or anyone else)? I don't know. Does anyone have numbers on that? If poverty plays a role in criminal behavior, than any group that has a higher percentage in poverty will have a higher percentage committing crime.

Then of course there is the argument we tend to either make black activities criminal, or more harshly punishable. Two examples. One is marijuana. Blacks were more likely to use pot than whites. Pot was made illegal. Alcohol, with similar impact on judgement and reason, was not. Second is crack cocaine. We made using crack cocaine's punishment FAR more than normal cocaine. Guess who used crack cocaine and who used other forms. And, several studies have shown crack was not worse than any other kind. We weren't sticking the stock broker in jail for snorting coke nearly as long as were were the black for using crack. Over the course of dozens of years and tens of thousands of arrests, those numbers add up. One group was paying a higher price in the war on drugs than another group for exactly the same crime.

Great to see you, Marvin!

We should always remember to note what numbers actually say as opposed to what we might think they say...and those numbers say that African-Americans are arrested at a higher rate - not that they commit them at a higher rate. I doubt anyone has numbers on crimes committed as opposed to crimes arrested for. And I suspect that there's no one thing that accounts for the numbers we do have, but rather an assortment of interrelated issues contributing in different ways.

 

[Circlejoe]

Statistics, not racism.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Facts aren't racist buddy.

Great, you have statistics to back up your racism. Lovely. and by the way, I'm not your buddy.

 

[toastedbread]

Great, you have statistics to back up your racism. Lovely. and by the way, I'm not your buddy.

Do you watch every step you take for fear of stepping on ants? How do you sleep at night? You must constantly be afraid of offending the can't be offended. You love labeling without ever entering a discussion.

Unlike you, Marvin responded in an interesting way.

 

[Thyrsis]

We've seen a couple of different competing narratives popping up, so I can't help wondering how the McKinney, Texas swimming pool fracas fits into our national conversation on policing and race.

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

How does McKinney add to the dialogue? (and why hasn't anyone here been talking about it instead of talking about Dick from the internet?)

From a casual glance, it looked like the officer simply lost his cool. And not to make light of the situation, but tripping is oddly embarrassing and reaction-inducing. He might have lost whatever was left of his composure at that moment.

I think he deserved to lose his job no later than the moment that he pulled his gun, but I don't know that he's a raging bigot. The girl in particular probably violated a couple common sense rules and that likely fueled the exasperation and hostility. (And those 'common sense' violations might be worth talking about). But yeah, the cop was out of hand.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Cops should treat everyone the same. There are 2 issues here. The cop resigned. Poor police treatment is not the reason that blacks commit more crime. My question is why per capita are blacks unable to follow the rules at the same rate as everyone else?

In that case, I would suggest the problem with this thread is that, when talking about the one issue, you went to the second issue in your mind. If these are two separate issues (that is to say, if you're not using black crime rates as justification for different police treatment), then why did you bring it up at all? Why is it even part of the discussion?

 

[Thyrsis]

We've seen a couple of different competing narratives popping up, so I can't help wondering how the McKinney, Texas swimming pool fracas fits into our national conversation on policing and race.

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

How does McKinney add to the dialogue? (and why hasn't anyone here been talking about it instead of talking about Dick from the internet?)

As to the kids most readily seen on the video, they seemed pretty young and not particularly 'hostile', but mostly just young. That youth makes lots of us pretty 'dumb'. For example, despite an unstable situation, it looked like the bikini girl freely intermixed herself in the scene and the police foot traffic as if nothing was happening. That's not wrongful, but an older and/or more cautious person would take steps to avoid getting caught up in the situation. She's also largely free to speak her mind, but discretion is often the better part of valor. The kids sitting in the grass and pleading didn't seem like threats; they seemed like kids wanting to go home. When the bikini girl got taken down, her immediate reaction was to say, basically, "I'm going to tell my Mom." The kids I saw on video didn't strike me as hardened scofflaws.

 

[Thyrsis]

Interesting incident. I think we'll see a variety of topics discussed, including relationships between minority populations and police, segregation through housing policy, and the regular conversation over racism. The town better be ready for a huge media presence. They're in the spotlight.

It will be very interesting to see what becomes of the police officer who resigned. Will he fade away quietly and try to correct his mistake, or will he become a commentator for how cops are not supported in a tough environment.

On yet another sidenote, I'm inclined to think the officer's thoughts slowly shifted as he sat absurdly perched on top of bikini girl and reflected on his situation. I imagine that within a few moments of taking his squatting position his thought-mix was 80% "g--d-- kids!" and 20% "I'm totally screwed" and then slowly but surely flipped to just the opposite percentages as his temper cooled.

 

[Sope Creek]

I don't care about this incident nor the pool pass. This whole controversy is stupid. The cop was a hot head and resigned.

My point is simple. Why are blacks in this country more likely to commit crime per capita? And they are committing crimes at nearly double population size per capita.

Do you believe the only explanation to be police looking for more black offenders? That would clearly be a case of institutional racism.

I don't think your posts in this thread bear on the issue at hand, i.e., specifically the McKinney incident and the police response, at all. Your point isn't one . . . it's basically an expression of a racist attitude using the McKinney as context, by generalizing about "blacks" as if the African-American population in the US is a single, monolithic group with group-universal characteristics. That's not the way the real world is . . . so I'm simply not going to address your non-point/thread hijack attempt.

 

[Rockfish1]

Here is a good take on the policing issues. On the video, one cop is heard calmly adopting the "guardian" approach (to serve and protect), while the now ex-cop is seen aggressively displaying the warrior approach. No one will be surprised that I think the "guardian" cop had it right.

 

[Rockfish1]

My question is why per capita are blacks unable to follow the rules at the same rate as everyone else?

You really are an asshole.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

According to the CNN article, the cops were called because there were too many non-residents at the pool, and the security guard couldn't get to leave on his own.

Tensions were possibly high because some white women made a racist remark about the black teens, but the actual call to the cops happened because some residents had brought too many guests to the pool, in violation of association regulations.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/10/us/mckinney-texas-pool-party-video/

 

[Rockfish1]

On yet another sidenote, I'm inclined to think the officer's thoughts slowly shifted as he sat absurdly perched on top of bikini girl and reflected on his situation. I imagine that within a few moments of taking his squatting position his thought-mix was 80% "g--d-- kids!" and 20% "I'm totally screwed" and then slowly but surely flipped to just the opposite percentages as his temper cooled.

That's a good take, Mr. Austin.

 

[toastedbread]

In that case, I would suggest the problem with this thread is that, when talking about the one issue, you went to the second issue in your mind. If these are two separate issues (that is to say, if you're not using black crime rates as justification for different police treatment), then why did you bring it up at all? Why is it even part of the discussion?

I don't think your posts in this thread bear on the issue at hand, i.e., specifically the McKinney incident and the police response, at all. Your point isn't one . . . it's basically an expression of a racist attitude using the McKinney as context, by generalizing about "blacks" as if the African-American population in the US is a single, monolithic group with group-universal characteristics. That's not the way the real world is . . . so I'm simply not going to address your non-point/thread hijack attempt.

First of all... I don't see two sides to the McKinney discussion. There is no discussion to be had in the sense that the police officer resigned. He was completely wrong. A hot head. There are too many hot heads in the police force. They are hot headed at citizens across racial boundaries.

There were racial issues brought up in this thread, thus I am asking why there are disproportionate crime statistics for one racial group? If that requires a separate thread then so be it. Theoretically I am of the biological view that there is no such thing of race. Unfortunately in the real world we use race as a label. It's in our census. I'm not sure how we can avoid it.

 

[Circlejoe]

I really don't care if you find my reply interesting. I'm not trying to entertain or engage you. Just calling out racism when I see it.

 

[toastedbread]

I really don't care if you find my reply interesting. I'm not trying to entertain or engage you. Just calling out racism when I see it.

Except everything to you is racism.

 

[hootch1]

There is also ample evidence that poverty breeds crime. I can't find that FBI data normalized for poverty. Are blacks living in poverty more susceptible to crime than whites (or anyone else)? I don't know. Does anyone have numbers on that? If poverty plays a role in criminal behavior, than any group that has a higher percentage in poverty will have a higher percentage committing crime.

Then of course there is the argument we tend to either make black activities criminal, or more harshly punishable. Two examples. One is marijuana. Blacks were more likely to use pot than whites. Pot was made illegal. Alcohol, with similar impact on judgement and reason, was not. Second is crack cocaine. We made using crack cocaine's punishment FAR more than normal cocaine. Guess who used crack cocaine and who used other forms. And, several studies have shown crack was not worse than any other kind. We weren't sticking the stock broker in jail for snorting coke nearly as long as were were the black for using crack. Over the course of dozens of years and tens of thousands of arrests, those numbers add up. One group was paying a higher price in the war on drugs than another group for exactly the same crime.

I don't know if marijuana was made illegal because it was predominantly used by blacks. I do know that if you are black you have a significantly higher chance of of being arrested for pot use/possession. <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/">Washington Post article</a>lays out the statics of marijuana use and arrests. Some highlights:

Marijuana use is slightly higher among blacks when all ages are considered.
Use for 18-25 year olds is higher in whites.
A higher percentage of whites have used marijuana
Blacks have a 350% higher chance of being arrested for marijuana possessions than whites.
Marijuana arrests increased as a percent of drug arrests by 37.5% from 1995 to 2010.

 

[Sope Creek]

Except everything to you is racism.

Maybe that's true, maybe not . . . but this would be the case where a blind squirrel actually did find a nut.

 

[NPT]

A couple of things continue to become readily apparent to me when I see video of these reactions, but the first and foremost is that police and African-Americans often seem to fear each other in ways that don't always seem logical to those who aren't walking in their shoes.

Yeah, you really have to wonder if the cop would have drawn his gun if the teenagers were white. To me, the cop obviously overreacted. Of course it's easy to sit here and watch it on a computer and say that but in the heat of the moment I'm not sure any of us know how we would react. Of course police are suppose to be trained to handle those situations.

 

[NPT]

Here is a good take on the policing issues. On the video, one cop is heard calmly adopting the "guardian" approach (to serve and protect), while the now ex-cop is seen aggressively displaying the warrior approach. No one will be surprised that I think the "guardian" cop had it right.

That is a good article and I think it illustrates the problem we have today. We have too many "John Wayne" type cops today that don't know how to handle the power. I think most are good but a small percentage can make all of them look bad. The cop that had to resign came in with a guns blazing approach rather than trying to diffuse the situation in a peaceful manner. I watch the "Cops" show sometimes and just shake my head sometimes in what they do.

They are more worried about things like this.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

That is a good article and I think it illustrates the problem we have today. We have too many "John Wayne" type cops today that don't know how to handle the power. I think most are good but a small percentage can make all of them look bad. The cop that had to resign came in with a guns blazing approach rather than trying to diffuse the situation in a peaceful manner. I watch the "Cops" show sometimes and just shake my head sometimes in what they do.

They are more worried about things like this.

Another problem, and I'm not sure how much this is talked about, but a lot of the local police and deputies here are all on some form of testosterone supplement. I doubt it's limited to just Southern Indiana. They openly admit it because it's "doctor prescribed" and therefore can't be called "steroid use", but they are all on either the gel or shots of some kind. Even the younger ones are using these supplements. We all know one major side effect of too much testosterone is aggression.