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The Meaning of Christmas from a Non-believer (LONG)

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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It's Christmas Eve. Tonight and into tomorrow (depending on your denomination) we celebrate the birth of the Savior. I have some thoughts about how important that is.

One may wonder what right a non-believer has in explaining the true meaning of Christmas. Surely, such a man would revert to tired old cliches - Christmas is for family, Christmas is for gratitude, Christmas is for charity. Surely those are the places a non-believer will land when traversing the true meaning of the holiest of Christian holidays*.

I'm here to tell you that it doesn't have to be this simple.

Now, to be fair, as a student of religion generally, and of early Christianity specifically, I take a slightly different view of the whole religion thing than many other so-called secularists. I think most of you know by now that I am not hostile toward religion. At this moment, I would like you to understand that this lack of hostility is not rooted in fear or misunderstanding, but in a deep and abiding respect for faith brought about by years of dedicated study. I studied faith long before I went to college, but my understanding of how powerful it is really blossomed in Bloomington. Yes, even at a public, liberal arts university.

Now, for DrHoops (holla!) and others, let me get this out of the way. Jesus wasn't born in late December. We all know that by now, I hope. Doesn't matter. The true meaning of Christmas has nothing to do with whether the date matches up on the calendar your bank sends you in the mail in November each year. If that matters to you, your soul is probably irreparably lost, anyway.

Do we celebrate Christmas in December because it aligns with the solstice? Yes. Are there many pagan influences in when, why and how we celebrate? Yes. Duh. Obviously. Doesn't matter. Not important. The point I wish to make is unrelated to any of those historical notes**.

Anyway, back to the main theme. Whatever the date, Christmas Eve is the night where we remember the coming birth of the Christ. I know people think of Christmas as Christ's birthday, but as the story goes, he was born at night***. By the reckoning of that place at that time, Christmas would have begun on Christmas Eve at sundown (something like 6 pm!), so Christmas Eve after dark is as good a time as any. Regardless, this is what happened, quoting Luke or Linus, as your experiences may lie:
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
And the angel said unto them, Fear not; for, behold, I bring you tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and goodwill towards men."
Now, I want to step aside for a moment, and remind you all that I have argued several times on this very forum that Easter according to John is the central theme of the entire Christian Bible. Although some other posters take issue with it, I have pointed out that John changed the date of the crucifixion. He moved it up by a day because he wanted Jesus to be killed, not the day of the Passover, but during the day before the Passover, at the same time the Passover lambs were slaughtered. Because Jesus was the Passover lamb. To me, that's the key message. Jesus is the lamb.

Well, if that's the key message, then this passage from Luke Chapter 2 is probably 1-B. Christ's birth may not be the moment humanity was redeemed, but it is the moment that God put that redemption into action. Up until that point, God could have easily changed his mind. He could have easily backed away from salvation, and none of us would have been the wiser. But at that moment, when Christ was born, the New Covenant became real. There was no going back. At that point, God's decision that we were worth redemption became set in stone.

From a historiological standpoint, it makes perfect sense we should celebrate this moment just after the solstice, when days finally have waned to their minimum, and begin to grow again. This is the moment when the sun begins its return, when life says to us all, we will get one more year. That is why I don't get bent out of shape that the date is "wrong." The date may be inaccurate, but it's not wrong****. That we celebrate the birth of our salvation as the year itself is reborn isn't wrong. It's unquestionably right.

Anyway, back to the meaning of Christmas, before this post gets so long Rivals tells me I can't post it. We're a terrible, dirty, horrible species. We've done so much damage. I mean, just really. We've done our level-headed best to destroy this planet and everything on it. We're awful. We really are. And yet the story of Jesus***** tells us that even we are worth redemption. After everything our species has put this planet through - and only the limits of the laws of physics have prevented us from inflicting the same pain on the rest of the universe - God looks at us and says, "Yes, I want to bring them to me. I want them to know that I still love them, and, though faulty they are, they still have worth in my eye."

That's a very powerful message. Death, war, destruction, slavery, the degradation of our planet, sexism, racism, homophobia, greed, selfishness, idol (celebrity?) worship, sin upon sin upon sin upon sin upon sin. And yet, awful as we may be, this is the day where we remember that God looked at us from upon high, and said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

We have worth. We have hope. We have that divine spark inside us. We have something, small as it may be, something, just some little thing, that would make God himself look upon us and say, "Yes, I think they are worth saving."

You don't have to be a church-going Christian to understand the power of that.

Merry Christmas to you all, and God bless.

goat

* Discounting Easter, of course, which may be considered holier by rational men.

** They are interesting in and of themselves, and if anyone wants to discuss them, I'm down for it, but they just aren't important for this post.

*** The Bible itself actually doesn't say, but the stories in Matt and Luke seem to generally suggest a nighttime birth.

**** I don't mean to get bent out of shape about this, but growing up as a Witness, I understand how certain people place so much importance on the date of Christmas, and it really bugs me, now that I know more.

***** Also the story of Noah, but that's a whole different bag of tater-tots.
 
You did a better job there than many believers....

I can't/won't add to your post because I think that you did an excellent job.

You have GOT to make your way out towards Philly sometime.
 
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I am so

pleased to read that post, Goat and thrilled to see the words of a wonderful explanation of the meaning of Christmas.

Whatever date either the birth or the death or the resurrection of Christ took place, they took place for the Salvation of mankind and you captured that essence.

Merry Christmas to you, Goat.

Merry Christmas to each and every person who posts now or has ever posted on this board.

I Thank God for having sent a Savior for sinful mankind.

I pray God's Blessings on each and every person and family represented here and that you all enjoy the meaning of the Christmas celebration and the joy of having your friends and family with you.

Forty seven years ago today, this son of a Baptist minister, accompanied by an Alawite Muslem Arab woman, attended Christmas Eve services, held in an Eastern Orthodox Church conducted by a Italian Catholic priest in French with some Turkish intermingled in Iskenderun, Turkey. Each year I think of that and have hope for Peace yet to come.


This post was edited on 12/24 8:14 AM by Ladoga
 
Goat, questions to a non-believer

Can we have salvation and redemption without Jesus or God? Is it easier for a believer to attain redemption and salvation in his own mind because he is convinced that he has Jesus and God on his side?

I take it from you post that you believe each of us has that "spark" inside us to redeem ourselves along with finding salvation, but maybe I am off base.

Goat, I put these questions to you because you have obviously thought long and hard on the subject and have the knowledge to give an informed answer.
 
Merry Christmas, goat.

Crack a couple eggs in a blender; add a cup of cream; a couple of tablespoons of sugar; a shot of rum; a shot of brandy; blend on high speed; pour into a large mug; and sit back and watch Charles Dickens' Scrooge as you sip your nog. Dickens did a great job of capturing the spirit of Christmas. He never mentions the bible story. A Christmas Carol was enormously popular. In early 19th Century England; and before that, people understood the meaning of the Christmas season. It was the same for believers and nonbelievers.

As you might expect, I am not positively impacted with your treatise about the "true meaning". But it is thought provoking as most of your posts are. I like Dickens' version much better. I've bookmarked your post and I might respond to your thoughts after the Holidays.

In the meantime: This truly is a wonderful time of the year. Sit back and enjoy it! Best to you.
 
I think Dickens' meaning is the same.

Scrooge is the awful, worthless humanity, and yet he finds salvation anyway. Perhaps I was too God-heavy in my post, but that we are all worth saving is ultimately the key point, I think.
 
That was one very good read. Thank you. One question, and...

I'm sure you have addressed it once or many time along the way and somehow I've missed it / them, but how can you reach such a deep thoughtful understanding of God and his grace, yet be a "non-believer'? This always confounds me when I read posts like this that you've written..

I only ask because in this and in other posts, I come away thinking you're more of a 'non-practicer' than a non-believer because deep down, I really think you believe.

Or am I just full of it?
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Your destination is fine

and we arrive at the same place. We disagree about what we see and what we think is important along the route. Maybe more later. We'll see.
 
Well...

I believe in the beauty and the power of the message of Christmas, rather than in the fact or non-fact of it. So, pretty much by definition, I do not think that salvation is tied to God or Jesus or believe therein.

If there is a God, I find it extremely unlikely that he would cull part of his own creation, even if he did give it free will. An all-powerful God, giving individually conscious creations free will and offering them no direct, explicit guidance, knowing that some of them will take said free will and use it to achieve damnation for themselves and others, would be a cruel God indeed.

But I don't think that matters for the Christmas message. The real power of the holiday isn't the notion that only some will be saved; it's the notion that salvation was made available at all.

goat
 
I am a rational being.

And there is no rational reason to believe. In fact, I'm on the record as saying that fact-based faith is empty and worthless, and it is only faith in something without proof that has meaning*.

I am also a spiritual being, and my spiritual journey is not yet complete, I am sure. I have traveled many different roads on this journey, but there are many more.

I do not think you have to believe in Jesus to appreciate the meaning of the story of Jesus, which is why I wrote that essay.

goat

* If Sope is reading this thread, this is the part where he decides to make a post about Kierkegaard.
 
Very good

You don't have to label it as long....we already know that you're a lawyer so it goes without saying that it'll be long.
3dgrin.r191677.gif


Seriously, that is a good post ..... interesting to read.

Merry Christmas to you.
 
Echhh......that was BORING!

Just kidding! Great post, Goat! Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
 
Are you now . . .

that's good to hear, Goat . . . but I do have to wonder . . . as I wander . . .

. . . I'm sitting here listening to Wynton Marsalis's "Crescent City Christmas Card", after listening to the season's lead up consisting of all of our Celtic and classical music versions of Christmas music. I love all that stuff, from the old Wyndham Hill recordings, like George Winston's "December", and John Gorka's "Christmas Bells", and the steel drum versions of traditional carols . . . to the pop versions of Christmas songs on the Barbara Streisand Christmas album, to the spectacularly gorgeous versions of carols by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (did you know that in Joy To The World they sing "and the saints and nature sing" instead of "and heaven and nature sing"? MrsSope is pondering that slight, but potentially important, variation), to the Anonymous 4's fresh treatment of ancient Christmas songs, and finally the Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve by the Cambridge Singers from London . . .

. . . for many, maybe most, Christmas is about the familiar - family (see what I did there?) and friends, traditions, recitation and reinforcement of sacred messages - news bringing comfort and joy to a population rent* from the vicissitudes of living in the world we've all been given. It's a reset, a making all-is-right-with-the-world event for many. It is the God So Loves The World story retold, and we are remade anew, again, as a result.

If you stop there, that's enough. Really.

But if you are a, um, rational being, I'm wondering - as I wander - if that isn't really just the beginning of rationality rather than a suspension of it. (What?!?)

You see, once God has re-made us, we have a choice. We can go back to what the world presents to us; make a living, feed and bathe the kids, make love to the wife once in a while and be re-made at Easter, then at Christmas and do it all over again . . . and there's nothing wrong with that. It is enough. Really . . .

. . . but alternatively we have another opportunity; we get to hear the beauty in the dissonance, dischord and other resolution of the familiar Christmas songs when played by someone who has seen and heard the world a little differently, and we can grow a little beyond what we've always been.

Last night I couldn't sleep (4 glasses of sweet tea at dinner will do that) and was watching a NOVA program regarding the dome of the cathedral built in Florence, Italy, which followed another NOVA program regarding the physics behind the architecture of Gothic cathedrals. And the demands of the church - of God, as it were - required new technological solutions to newly presented issues associated with using glass walls - stained glass windows to tell illiterate people the Biblical message other than through the printed word - instead of massive stone walls in ever larger and taller spaces.

The history of the church - and other religions - is replete with scientific discovery and advancement. Genetic studies started with an Augustinian monk in Vienna. Mathematics was extended significantly in the early days of Islam by Muslim clerics. Architectural advancements occurred in the Middle Ages, then exploded during the Reformation . . . .

The demands placed on us to serve the Divine, the Creator, required - and require - folks to see the world differently than they - and we - have seen it before. It's not that we're changing the world when we do this . . . we just see the world more effectively, and see it as God has made it . . . in other words we use our rational thought and the spark of divine creativity granted to us by God to see God more revealed, and to create a new "familiar", in the same way that Jesus revealed a new understanding of "family"** . . . .

The Gospel According to Sope says that God is (among other things) the electrical current, the energy, the power, that we plug into to extend ourselves, for our own sakes and for others'.*** How much of a Leap of Faith**** is it for us to plug in, Be Not Afraid, and give it a go? Is it really a leap of faith . . . or is it simply more rational than not doing so?


*See KJV, Matthew 27:51.

**See Mark 10:29.

***See The Road Less Traveled, by M. Scott Peck, and his definition of "love".

****There's your Kierkegaard, Goat.
happy.r191677.gif


This post was edited on 12/25 11:03 AM by Sope Creek
 
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Kierkegaard? Sounds like you're sneaking some Pascal in there, too...

Those are good points, if I understand you correctly. Certainly, once you've made that leap of faith, even if it is irrational, there are consequences of that leap that must be dealt with rationally.
 
Very very good post

You summed up in a few paragraphs kinda where I am with much of these unknowns.

The Gospel According to Sope linking God, electricity, and energy of the universe is a concept I have been wrestling with for many years now. Electriciy powered the Creation and it likewise powers our minds. There are commonalities yet to be discovered.

Book recommendations: The Electric Universe.

Sope, have a wonderful Christmas.

Now back to peeling potatoes and preparing the tenderloin roast.
 
Too late. I already read it.

I didn't think it was inappropriate. I might not agree with your theology, but I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want to hear other views.

This post was edited on 12/25 4:03 PM by TheOriginalHappyGoat
 
Some more about this

The meaning of Christmas (for me) is the birth of faith. The Bible doesn't say Christ was born. The Bible says to us Christ was born. The difference is subtle but profound. The Christmas story is not spread by words on a page of the bible, it is spread by the Word and spirit. You are on the right track with your comments about the "divine spirit" in all of us.

So what did we celebrate yesterday? First of all, the debates about a celebration of the solstice, the date Christ was born,* holiday trees, or what have you, are all trivial. All of Western Civilization sees Christmas as a time of peace on earth and good will towards men. That is the divine spark. That is what was Christ's birth started. These ideas are both secular and sectarian, but mostly secular. All the Christmas movies our culture has produced are about this, not about Christ's birth. 90% of the Christmas music is about "The Wonderful Time of the Year" not about the Birth. Dickens knew this 160+ years ago. The Christian contribution to the winter solstice celebrations is name "Christmas". Christmas has been thusly celebrated for 100's of years. Those who freak out over being wished a Merry Christmas don't get it. It is an expression of peace on earth and good will towards men, not a celebration of being Christian. Those who believe can attend church and celebrate the virgin birth. That's fine and appropriate. But the meaning of Christmas--the divine spark--is there for everyone.

I had much more to say, but after a day or two of reflection; I'll focus on that about which we mostly agree. Except to say I don't buy your nonbeliever schtick. I think you only find comfort in saying that and "believing" in non belief.

*Not even all Christians believe December 25 was the day.








This post was edited on 12/26 11:19 AM by CO. Hoosier
 
I don't think there is a good word

for the type of belief I do and do not have. In the context of Christianity, I call myself a non-believer because I don't specifically hold to any particular Christian doctrine anymore than I would hold to any particular non-Christian doctrine. However, I don't specifically disbelieve, either. I'm generally agnostic on questions of which faith(s) is(are) factually true.
 
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Goat, why do you dodge

...simply calling yourself purely agnostic by saying you are "generally agnostic"?

Sounds to me as if you are still open on all this in spite of all your study of religion.

Don't think you are alone in remaining a unconvinced non-believer willing to be convinced while still respecting and possibly feeling some envy of the faith of others who are convinced.
 
Man, I used to write like a first-year grad student with a belly full of Xanax.
Ha! I just read it for the first time (and thought you just posted it until a few posts later).

From someone less deistic than you, Christmas is by far my favorite holiday and holiday season. It has nothing to do with any thoughts of a god, though. For me, I love how Christmas has evolved into a time for gratitude, showing your love for your fellow man, etc. I have a deep, innate sentimental streak and so adore most sappy Christmas movies. To the extent they also deal with redemption and a universal justice (seen in themes such as people getting divine payback or recognition for their self-sacrifice), I'm all in. And I find the innocence of children pretty fundamental in understanding it all, and Christmas is nothing if not a time for adults to nurture innocence and delight in children.

That this optimistic spirit towards mankind is also linked to two historical traditions (Christianity and paganism celebration of the solstice) just deepens my appreciation, and links people in the Western tradition together even more.
 
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