Morgan Ellison
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Are you familiar with why someone might not want to report sexual assault to the police or disclose it to anyone at all?
If the first person reporting wins, I suppose a young man needs video evidence or have a lady sign a release before engaging in a sexual act. I don't know how else you prove consensual sex.
Is it too late too wait 30+ years to get the signature? Maybe it is best not to ask!
Ah...punished for not breaking the law...what’s the lesson, hardly made it worth it?
I don't know the guilt or innocence of this young man and never will. I am just happy that I don't have a high school or college age son right now. This environment is a minefield.
The environment isn’t a problem if one conducts themselves with a modicum of honor. It’s not that difficult for most high school and college aged young men.
I have college-aged kids of both genders. I remain much more concerned for my daughter's welfare than my son's.
This whole issue has become a political football because of high profile claims involving Trump, Kavanaugh and others. But put politics aside for a second. I'll be accused by one poster of being "holier than thou" for what I'm about to say, but if a man acts responsibly, his chances of being falsely accused of sexual assault - - or falsely accused of anything, for that matter - - are slim to none. I don't know of a single man in my circle of friends, family and work colleagues who has been accused of sexual assault. It's not like there's some epidemic of false accusations being made. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of men have not been - - and never will be - - accused of and/or charged with sexual assault.
Bowl, you're spot on. To not go into too much detail, I've been with girls who were all about hooking up and then when the moment came to get down to business, they objected. At that moment I stopped and rolled over. Some girls were stunned and wanted me to keep going. To them I said, well, I'm not going to proceed unless I know you want me to and you just told me no. They then agreed to going forward and we did. Others said I'm sorry, but I'm just not ready right now and I always said OK. This was a cut and dry scenario for me. I was raised that no means no. There weren't any exceptions either. The idea that just because we're in a #metoo moment that guys are somehow the victims is just preposterous to me. I've never been accused of anything and I have had lots of sexual partners. I have no clue how to even relate to someone that forces themselves onto a woman who's telling them to stop.
You are being sanctimonious. Being charged is not the same as being guilty. Just because your friends weren't charged doesn't mean it didn't happen. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
When you went to school, was the #MeToo movement going on?
When I was in school, if a girl got drunk at a frat party, passed out, and/or was accosted sexually, they didn't report it because they'd put themselves in a bad situation. That doesn't make it right - I'm not saying that. This may be a revelation to you, but when people drink or are at a party, things happen, often with the consent of both people. But, upon further reflection, when those actions don't seem very smart, people will make excuses for their actions.
This case still comes down to he said/she said. I'm appalled that so many of you are ok with ruining someone's life based on no evidence provided to date. If evidence surfaces that proves him guilty, I'm fine with it and would not defend him. But if that's the case - if there was some credible evidence, then it should go, or should have gone, to the Prosecutor to bring charges.
Until then, this is not due process and I hope, if he's truly not guilty, that he sues the pants off IU and makes this an example of this politically correct witch hunt.
DANC - Who is OK with ruining someone's life? You are projecting hard here man. You accuse Bowl of doing just that and then you do it even more.
When I went to IU, '98-'02, I just didn't rape. Or sexually assault. I hooked up, got laid and then did again the next weekend. It wasn't hard. It was IU. There are hot chicks everywhere and they're sowing their wild oats too. Just like the boys. Don't assume the accuser is lying. Ever. Assuming the accuser is lying is just as bad as assuming the accused is guilty.
When I went to IU, '98-'02, I just didn't rape. Or sexually assault. I hooked up, got laid and then did again the next weekend. It wasn't hard. It was IU. There are hot chicks everywhere and they're sowing their wild oats too. Just like the boys. Don't assume the accuser is lying. Ever. Assuming the accuser is lying is just as bad as assuming the accused is guilty.
I'm surprised so many college graduates (supposedly) have such reading comprehension problems.
You don't think this is ruining Ellison's life? How is that 'projecting'.
I've also never said I don't believe the accuser. I've said that, just because an accusation is made, it isn't automatically true. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?
All I've ever said is I expect due process. And not some 'student council' which is faceless and influenced by modern day social media.
Unless there is evidence one way or the other, I guess I just don't understand why the presumption of guilt is so readily accepted by many here.
So was I. And it was something I drilled into my son's head when he was about 15.
Hahahahaha!!! No, I unequivocally DO NOT think that this is ruining his life. I think that he made a poor choice and that he's now reaping the consequences of that poor choice. He, like all IU students, signed a code of conduct. He violated that code. He then had to go before the board of his peers and try to defend his actions while the accuser also got to tell her side of the story. His peers found him guilty. I don't know how much more due process you think he deserves?
Now, to address your other crazy assertions. Who is presuming he's guilty? I presume nothing. I am commenting on the only facts we have and those are that he was accused and found in breach of the code of conduct by his peers and was suspended. That's literally all we know. Why do YOU presume he is not guilty when you don't know any of the facts and were not present for his hearing? That seems very odd to me. Why would you side with the player when you have no clue what's going on and those that do know both sides of the story sided with the accuser? Why? What compels you to take that stance?
I wholeheartedly agree with your last line, “Assuming the accuser is lying is just as bad as assuming the accused is guilty”. However, it appears the only one paying a price is the “accused”, and without due process.
Just asking, do you really know the specifics of the “process” Mr Ellison received ?
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2018/05/18/the-fallout-from-weaponizing-title-ix/
1st, why should the accuser have to pay a price?? She already was assaulted, so what else does she need to have happen to her? She also had to have the courage to tell her story multiple times in order to get any justice for herself and that's a price too. What else does she need to give? A pound of flesh?
2nd, there was due process. Every student signs the code of conduct. He breached that and she took him to task for his breach, They then both got to tell their sides of the story to a group of their peers, and they felt that she had a more believable story than he did. Pretty simple and something that ALL IU students agree to when they enroll.
"He violated that code." You don't know that.
"Who is presuming he's guilty?" Uh, you are, by saying he violated the code. You don't know whether he violated it or not. You're only going by the word of the accuser.
"His peers found him guilty". What a joke. Did they throw him, tied up in a lake, and see if he floats?
Once again, reading comprehension escapes you. I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm not siding with the player. I'm siding with a concept that due process should be followed and, just because someone is accused, doesn't make them guilty.
Why do you assume an accuser is always right? What evidence have you seen that makes you think he's guilty?
That is meaningless. I have linked something meaningful. The actual IU student code of conduct for sexual assaults. Give it a read.
http://studentcode.iu.edu/procedures/iu-wide/sexual-misconduct.html
Wait a minute, you said you haven’t presumed guilt , yet you just said without hesitation, she was already assaulted ? Were you there ? Is there any evidence other than her word ?
Look I have 2 teenage daughters, one will go to college next year, so I see both sides, but there is nothing worse than being falsely accused ( not saying that is the case with Ellison) . Without a thorough investigation by professionals , I don’t see how you can destroy a person’s life.
Exactly. Interesting that he's accusing us of all kinds of things (me: being sanctimonious - - good word, Dan, by the way; you: reading comprehension issues), while he seems unable to grasp the process and procedure. The player in question was charged with violating the student code of conduct. There was a hearing before the sexual misconduct panel and he was found, by a preponderance of the evidence, to have violated the code. Doesn't sound like a "witch hunt" to me.
Unfortunately the other poster seems to be heavily politically invested in this issue, so he's unable to look at it objectively.
It’s only meaningless if you continue to stick your head in the sand. So I guess you think it is ok that a university in this article admitted that their processes “favored” the accuser ? I wouldn’t want my family member in that position .
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None. Just like you have seen zero evidence that should make you think that he's not guilty or that she's lying. We have an IU female student saying that he came into her room without being invited and then kept advancing against her wishes. Then a board found him guilty. That is all we know. I am just agreeing with the process and that's it. Unlike you, since I admit I have no extra info, I am not going to attack the process, or defend the person found guilty by their peers.
Guess looking at both sides is too much to ask, hope they never have a family member falsely accused with no way to “prove” their innocence.
Hate to break it to you but college kids are
if there is a presumption of guilt it because he has been suspended for 2-1/2 years. And yes he can still file an appeal. And none of us have any idea what happened at all. My guess is that the appeal will put some new faces into the process as well as possibly some additional legal experts.
Subliminally, I think we are afraid that the process looks like this:
How do you know it wasn't "thorough"?
http://studentcode.iu.edu/procedures/iu-wide/sexual-misconduct.html
That seems pretty thorough to me.
Stick my head in the sand? That's rich. Also, please show exactly how this process favored the accuser? Finally, why would your family member be in that position? Are they rapey?
OMG. I read it. Question, how does one find "mindingthecampus.org" when perusing the interwebs?
That is hilarious! Also, of course there are going to be false accusations. So what? There are infinitely fewer false accusations as opposed to real accusations. Are you trying to say that because there have been a handful of false accusations that they should somehow taint the thousands of real accusations? I think you are...
I have linked the IU code of sexual misconduct twice. You know, the one document being linked that's actually applicable here. Have either of you read that yet? I did. It was very informative about the exact process afforded both the accuser and the accused. Heretofore known as the complainant and the respondent respectively. I feel lawyerly when I type it that way. Here it is, one more time:
http://studentcode.iu.edu/procedures/iu-wide/sexual-misconduct.html
I've never pwned anyone off the free board like that before. New personal best. If you'd be a dear, stop responding to the entire thread. Your contributions are poor at best and a bit rapey at worst. TIA Also, I've been here for years and I'm far from a troll. Joined around 2000 when I was still a student. IUScott got me banned
for using potty words so I had to start a new username.
The problem with this is that you don't know what evidence was presented in the hearing. You are assuming it's just her word against his but none of know that for sure.
Apparently you cannot read or comprehend, I have 2 daughters and don’t make further remarks about kids you don’t know. My comment said “falsely accused”, meaning of anything.
I have posted a couple different articles on how the process favors the accuser, but you obviously choose not to read and comprehend. You can post university policy 100 times, but you do not know the make up of the panel, complaints are investigated, by whom? It says the investigation consists of statements by the 2 parties , sounds thorough. If I were accused of sexual assault I would surely want more than some damn university panel determining my fate.
That is true , NEITHER side knows what evidence was presented , so none of us know. We are just saying, as cases across the country seem to be bearing out, that the system is flawed .
Oh boy. I'll say whatever I want. This is a message board. I don't even know what your 1st paragraph means? Can you go back and edit it so that it's readable please? You posted a single article in response to me today and I read it. It was very slanted and written by a guy that covered the Duke lacrosse fiasco and is clearly biased towards the respondents. The IU policy is very detailed and it shows that the respondent has every opportunity to defend themselves against the complainant's accusations. You have no clue what either party presented to the council and neither do I. However, we both know that the council agreed that he'd violated the sexual misconduct policy. We also know that he went into her bedroom uninvited. He agreed to all of this when he signed the policy and I am good with the process. He has every right to appeal and if he's innocent I hope he does and that he proves it. If he's not then he needs to go to another school and try to do better next time.
Every system is flawed.
There isn't any way to prove many of these cases one way or the other, short of an admission of guilt. Since we are learning more and more about how prevalent sexual assault really is on college campuses and throughout society and how it actually happens, it seems logical to give more weight than we used to to an accuser.
If a guy doesn't want be accused of assault, he should keep it in his pants, stop grabbing asses, and keep asshole comments to himself. Problem solved.
This is an important point.
Yes, the Title IX/University systems are flawed, but so is the legal/court system when it comes to sexual assault (the legal system is probably much more flawed in this area because it by and large deters report of assault). It is one thing to point out flaws in a system, but it is very myopic to suggest those flaws necessitate abolition of that system when the alternatives are worse.
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