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Ideas and policy vs. people and personality

CO. Hoosier

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Aug 29, 2001
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First of all, I’m writing this post knowing full well that most of the posters here will launch an unhinged anti-Trump fusillade. I’m assuming that risk. Notwithstanding, Bari Weiss provides an excellent lesson about Trump that we should all learn. We killed good to excellent ideas Trump championed for no reason other than Trump is an asshole of the first order. Weiss mentions debt, the border and the Middle East as examples of current disasters because we killed killed Trump policy. I would add energy and education to the mix. Unfortunately we can’t change because it’s easier and more fun to talk about people instead of ideas.

In any event, read the whole thing. Weiss confronted reality and learned from it.

 
First of all, I’m writing this post knowing full well that most of the posters here will launch an unhinged anti-Trump fusillade. I’m assuming that risk. Notwithstanding, Bari Weiss provides an excellent lesson about Trump that we should all learn. We killed good to excellent ideas Trump championed for no reason other than Trump is an asshole of the first order. Weiss mentions debt, the border and the Middle East as examples of current disasters because we killed killed Trump policy. I would add energy and education to the mix. Unfortunately we can’t change because it’s easier and more fun to talk about people instead of ideas.

In any event, read the whole thing. Weiss confronted reality and learned from it.

Stop with this nonsense. If only Trump were just an asshole. Unfortunately he's a mob boss of the first order. And that's just for starters.

And you, the self-righteous poster who always claimed to take the high road, have become a champion of ad hominems. You need to change your signature.
 
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CLASS IS IN SESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It desperately needs to be. Harvard-Harris poll showing a majority of 18-24-year-olds believe Hamas’s actions against Israeli citizens “justified.” As the author of the piece in RealClearPolitics wrote about this, “This is insane.”

Musk describes the “woke mind virus” now infecting so many. Either an oppressor or an oppressed. Can’t be some of both. So, slaughtering babies and grandmothers is okay. But, the messenger and all. . . .

So, we get a failed border system, with uncontrolled illegal aliens invading the country, an educational system not coming close to educating, an economy that the pointy-heads see as fine while millions upon millions suffer under high interest rates and higher prices and a military that can’t recruit.

But, but, let’s find out what Trump thinks so we can believe/support the opposite.
 
What was Trump's idea for the debt?
This was Trump's idea.


This is what he did.

 
It desperately needs to be. Harvard-Harris poll showing a majority of 18-24-year-olds believe Hamas’s actions against Israeli citizens “justified.” As the author of the piece in RealClearPolitics wrote about this, “This is insane.”

Musk describes the “woke mind virus” now infecting so many. Either an oppressor or an oppressed. Can’t be some of both. So, slaughtering babies and grandmothers is okay. But, the messenger and all. . . .

So, we get a failed border system, with uncontrolled illegal aliens invading the country, an educational system not coming close to educating, an economy that the pointy-heads see as fine while millions upon millions suffer under high interest rates and higher prices and a military that can’t recruit.

But, but, let’s find out what Trump thinks so we can believe/support the opposite.
agreed. incidentally i saw that poll from harvard on facebook. my facebook has gotten very busy with political stuff re israel from friends. most political stuff i have ever seen posted. far more than the election or anything else
 
First of all, I’m writing this post knowing full well that most of the posters here will launch an unhinged anti-Trump fusillade. I’m assuming that risk. Notwithstanding, Bari Weiss provides an excellent lesson about Trump that we should all learn. We killed good to excellent ideas Trump championed for no reason other than Trump is an asshole of the first order. Weiss mentions debt, the border and the Middle East as examples of current disasters because we killed killed Trump policy. I would add energy and education to the mix. Unfortunately we can’t change because it’s easier and more fun to talk about people instead of ideas.

In any event, read the whole thing. Weiss confronted reality and learned from it.


Debt and the border require Congressional action.

As to the Middle East, we aren't the only player. On the subject of being a player, we have trouble deciding whether we are a negotiator, or a combatant, or both.
 
First of all, I’m writing this post knowing full well that most of the posters here will launch an unhinged anti-Trump fusillade. I’m assuming that risk. Notwithstanding, Bari Weiss provides an excellent lesson about Trump that we should all learn. We killed good to excellent ideas Trump championed for no reason other than Trump is an asshole of the first order. Weiss mentions debt, the border and the Middle East as examples of current disasters because we killed killed Trump policy. I would add energy and education to the mix. Unfortunately we can’t change because it’s easier and more fun to talk about people instead of ideas.

In any event, read the whole thing. Weiss confronted reality and learned from it.

Border wall was completely about the message. Everyone coming across the Southern border were in 'hoards', and they were rapists and murderers. Just like when it came time to stop flights due to COVID, it was flights from China. The latter didn't last long, as all international travel was shut down, but he ran on bigoted language regarding immigration.

He wasn't interested in immigration. He was interested in pea brains, using fear and bigotry to unite the gullible.

You want to build a wall? Great! Build it on its merits. Figure out how to fund it.


Trump's Israeli plan? Let's be frank. Only Israel agreed with it. Even the Israeli's in the West Bank settlements didn't agree with it, and Israel tried to use it as a land grab. It didn't really established Palestine as an independent sovereign state, more like a territory of Israel.

Other countries who didn't outright reject the plan (there is a lot of obvious answers on that one) viewed US efforts as appreciative, but noted they were still in support of the UN's two state solution.

It was dead on the vine before Trump left office.

That BLM is against a sovereign occupying force isn't exactly news. That extreme members of the black community appear anti-semitic isn't news either. Until BLM starts to lean toward acting like Hamas domestically, there isn't much interest in caring about what BLM thinks of Palestine and Israel.


Israel isn't innocent in all of this, and calling out its government and policies as a whole aren't anti-semintic. Even while in negotiations with the Trump administration, they were acting as bad actors toward the agreement, as they repeatedly planned to annex more territory in the West Bank.

At some point that is has to be more about Israel's failed policies than anything the US did or didn't do, in hand with Palestinian rigidity on 'holy land'. Of course the last part of that is more of my view on religion as a whole. It's very much part of why Palestinian hopefuls never really came to the table on Trump's plan.


You can try to blame Biden and wokeness all you want, but it wasn't closed to being solved or even really heading in any peaceful direction under Trump. As soon as Kuschner abandoned 'two state' rhetoric, it was dead on the vine, and most of the peace talks did was delay inevitable violence that's been going on for decades.
 
Read before you post. You guys look like, well, not bright, when you don't just click the link and end up asking questions that are clearly spelled out in the link.

To the rest, CoH had most of the responses above me pegged. "Drrr Trump."
It was a question, and considering the GOP had the White House, the House and the Senate, in the booming economy Obama handed off, there was nothing to keep Trump from installing his debt plan.

To this day we're still waiting on his health care and infrastructure plans.
 
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Read before you post. You guys look like, well, not bright, when you don't just click the link and end up asking questions that are clearly spelled out in the link.

To the rest, CoH had most of the responses above me pegged. "Drrr Trump."
Did you read it? I don't see the word "debt" mentioned. I specifically asked about debt because I have an idea what CoH would point to regarding the other topics.

My impression is Trump left it to Congress to worry about the debt. What he got was another tax cut.
 
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Did you read it? I don't see the word "debt" mentioned. I specifically asked about debt because I have an idea what CoH would point to regarding the other topics.

My impression is Trump left it to Congress to worry about the debt. What he got was another tax cut.

Yes I did read it. To read the whole thing you have to click the linked Twitter message. From the link and quote attributed to Bari Weiss:

“So much of the work that happened in that [Trump] administration turns out to have been right. And that’s what is so frustrating for me. The work on the border wall? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. Turned out it was right. Issuing long-term debt to refinance when rates were at zero? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. A structural peace in the Middle East? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message.”
 
Yes I did read it. To read the whole thing you have to click the linked Twitter message. From the link and quote attributed to Bari Weiss:

“So much of the work that happened in that [Trump] administration turns out to have been right. And that’s what is so frustrating for me. The work on the border wall? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. Turned out it was right. Issuing long-term debt to refinance when rates were at zero? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. A structural peace in the Middle East? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message.”
THey just can't help themselves. Ya know.... Messenger and all.
 
What was Trump's idea for the debt?

Reduce taxes on the wealthy so that they could use to hire people (or other trick down bs), which would in turn increase the tax base...or something like that.

It was about the same as his idea for healthcare and infrastructure...non-existent.

But he had the idea to build a wall and make mexico pay for it...oh wait, nevermind.

He had the best ideas lol
 
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Yes I did read it. To read the whole thing you have to click the linked Twitter message. From the link and quote attributed to Bari Weiss:

“So much of the work that happened in that [Trump] administration turns out to have been right. And that’s what is so frustrating for me. The work on the border wall? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. Turned out it was right. Issuing long-term debt to refinance when rates were at zero? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. A structural peace in the Middle East? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message.”
Ok, I should have known he wasn't talking about the national debt.
 
Yes I did read it. To read the whole thing you have to click the linked Twitter message. From the link and quote attributed to Bari Weiss:

“So much of the work that happened in that [Trump] administration turns out to have been right. And that’s what is so frustrating for me. The work on the border wall? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. Turned out it was right. Issuing long-term debt to refinance when rates were at zero? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. A structural peace in the Middle East? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message.”

As to other things, like the wall, I have heard numerous Israelis this week complain they own the most high tech wall in history and it did nothing to prevent 1000 Hamas terrorists from going over, through, and around. I know no one believes me when I say walls are big and dumb and people determined to defeat them will find ways. Heck, McNamara built an electric fence across Vietnam that could kill, didn't stop the NVA. Walls have limited purposes, in metro areas where masses could easily walk across a street. A wall stops the accidental crossing, or like a locked car door, stops the 16-year old looking to joyride. A locked car door doesn't bother a pro, a wall won't stop the gangs moving people.

Everyone wants peace in the Middle East. I don't have any idea why Israel's enemies would deal with the guy who greenlit Jerusalem being Israel's capitol. That is clearly something the Palestinians did not want, and if they had to give it up in negotiations they would expect something good back. Doing it and then getting nothing in return isn't conducive to them believing we have any interest in them or their desires/needs.
 

As to other things, like the wall, I have heard numerous Israelis this week complain they own the most high tech wall in history and it did nothing to prevent 1000 Hamas terrorists from going over, through, and around. I know no one believes me when I say walls are big and dumb and people determined to defeat them will find ways. Heck, McNamara built an electric fence across Vietnam that could kill, didn't stop the NVA. Walls have limited purposes, in metro areas where masses could easily walk across a street. A wall stops the accidental crossing, or like a locked car door, stops the 16-year old looking to joyride. A locked car door doesn't bother a pro, a wall won't stop the gangs moving people.

Everyone wants peace in the Middle East. I don't have any idea why Israel's enemies would deal with the guy who greenlit Jerusalem being Israel's capitol. That is clearly something the Palestinians did not want, and if they had to give it up in negotiations they would expect something good back. Doing it and then getting nothing in return isn't conducive to them believing we have any interest in them or their desires/needs.
What reduction in numbers does a wall need to effect to be a worthy solution, & how do we measure effectiveness? 100%? 50%? 25%? Seatbelts aren’t 100% effective, should we quit wearing them?
 
What reduction in numbers does a wall need to effect to be a worthy solution, & how do we measure effectiveness? 100%? 50%? 25%? Seatbelts aren’t 100% effective, should we quit wearing them?
They won't address the issue, they really want the USA to be RUSSIA or Venezuela. That's way they keep shitting on any pieces of control. The only control they want are them over free Will Americans. It could not be more clear at this point.
The #1 priority is to fight like hell against any individual steps to stop us from being over ran by an enemy army that could kill us all. There is a reason they want this to happen.
It's time to stop asking them, they do not have our best intentions in mind. Quite the opposite actually.
 
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What reduction in numbers does a wall need to effect to be a worthy solution, & how do we measure effectiveness? 100%? 50%? 25%? Seatbelts aren’t 100% effective, should we quit wearing them?
How much does a wall coast-to-coast cost?

I am convinced walls cause apathy (so do seatbelts*). The French had the Maginot Line, no need to invest in military. I suspect we will find Israel cut back on patrols because they had a wall. The Germans knew Luft Stalag 3 was inescapable so they relaxed.

So if we are going to have to keep patrols over the border, drones, infrared and seismic sensors all across the border, what value is the wall? If it isn't cutting back other costs, what are we doing.

I honestly don't know how effective it has to be, but if it isn't going to save us any money with other defenses it needs to be more effective. If it is 10% effective but halves our yearly budget, great idea. Thinking about Hamas using boats to go around, and I suspect Israel has as good of coastal observation as we do, I don't know that it will be too effective.

I suspect we agree, if the wall blocks 1 person per year, not worth it. 100% then of course build it. I don't know where the line is. I almost talked myself into it because Israel's wall was fairly successful. But it turns out Hamas was purposely not tipping their hand with small incursions to guarantee the big one worked.

* Jeremy Clarkson had a point on seatbelts and other safety devices creating aparhy, the safer we make cars the more crazy people drive because they have no fear. He suggested if every steering wheel had a razor sharp spike extending to the driver's chest, their would be almost no accidents.
 

As to other things, like the wall, I have heard numerous Israelis this week complain they own the most high tech wall in history and it did nothing to prevent 1000 Hamas terrorists from going over, through, and around. I know no one believes me when I say walls are big and dumb and people determined to defeat them will find ways. Heck, McNamara built an electric fence across Vietnam that could kill, didn't stop the NVA. Walls have limited purposes, in metro areas where masses could easily walk across a street. A wall stops the accidental crossing, or like a locked car door, stops the 16-year old looking to joyride. A locked car door doesn't bother a pro, a wall won't stop the gangs moving people.

Everyone wants peace in the Middle East. I don't have any idea why Israel's enemies would deal with the guy who greenlit Jerusalem being Israel's capitol. That is clearly something the Palestinians did not want, and if they had to give it up in negotiations they would expect something good back. Doing it and then getting nothing in return isn't conducive to them believing we have any interest in them or their desires/needs.

The wall was somewhat symbolic. There is no denying the results of the policies that came with the wall though.

As to the Middle East negotiations, I think you are under the (wrong) impression that the Palestinians were some major factor in the Abraham Accords. The Arabs don't give a crap about the Palestinians outside of their political usefulness. With the rise of Iran, that usefulness was waning. The evil Israelis had more to offer the Saudis in their attempts to have a counterweight to Iran. Trump wasn't negotiating with the Palestinians, he had pushed them to the periphery and was dealing with the Saudis based on their strategic needs.
 
The wall was somewhat symbolic. There is no denying the results of the policies that came with the wall though.

As to the Middle East negotiations, I think you are under the (wrong) impression that the Palestinians were some major factor in the Abraham Accords. The Arabs don't give a crap about the Palestinians outside of their political usefulness. With the rise of Iran, that usefulness was waning. The evil Israelis had more to offer the Saudis in their attempts to have a counterweight to Iran. Trump wasn't negotiating with the Palestinians, he had pushed them to the periphery and was dealing with the Saudis based on their strategic needs.

That doesn't solve in any way the violence we are seeing. Note how quickly SA, Qatar, and Egypt fled from Israel in light of what is happening. The governments do not care about Palestinians, they are more real politik. The masses, you know the ones that hate the governmental elite in those countries, they hate Israel. It isn't the same as being pro Palestinian but the two often overlap.

MBS may be a murderer, something we overlooked to try and push this along, but he has been critical of his Wahhabi establishment. But I don't think he is at all willing to take them on. The Wahhabi are pro Palestinian and are quite willing to car bomb and anything else people who get in their way.


MBS is stuck, I think he wants the accords, but groups like Hamas know that these type of attacks can set them off forcing Saud to back away.
 
Yes I did read it. To read the whole thing you have to click the linked Twitter message. From the link and quote attributed to Bari Weiss:

“So much of the work that happened in that [Trump] administration turns out to have been right. And that’s what is so frustrating for me. The work on the border wall? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. Turned out it was right. Issuing long-term debt to refinance when rates were at zero? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message. A structural peace in the Middle East? We didn’t like the messenger, so we killed the message.”
And even with a GOP House and Senate in his first two years, he couldn't get it done. That's how feckless he was.
 
And even with a GOP House and Senate in his first two years, he couldn't get it done. That's how feckless he was.

You know that the shots at Trump don't bother me at all right? He ain't my dude because of exactly what you said. He didn't get stuff done. I want someone that would have you whining about what they did as opposed to who they are or what they said.
 
You know that the shots at Trump don't bother me at all right? He ain't my dude because of exactly what you said. He didn't get stuff done. I want someone that would have you whining about what they did as opposed to who they are or what they said.
It's not a shot to bother you. It's called a discussion. You replied to someone's post. I replied to yours.

That's how this board works. It's not about you.
 
It's not a shot to bother you. It's called a discussion. You replied to someone's post. I replied to yours.

That's how this board works. It's not about you.

Dude, we can all tell when a post is meant to engender discussion and when it is meant to try and get under someone's skin. Yours was the latter.

And it is about me when you respond to me. Just like my response to you is about you.
 
Dude, we can all tell when a post is meant to engender discussion and when it is meant to try and get under someone's skin. Yours was the latter.
When you skip over the relevant fact in the post and make it about you...Sorry I dared to disagree with you.
And it is about me when you respond to me. Just like my response to you is about you.
No...maybe to you it is, but that's a you problem.

Toughen up a little bit. It will help you.
 
How much does a wall coast-to-coast cost?

I am convinced walls cause apathy (so do seatbelts*). The French had the Maginot Line, no need to invest in military. I suspect we will find Israel cut back on patrols because they had a wall. The Germans knew Luft Stalag 3 was inescapable so they relaxed.

So if we are going to have to keep patrols over the border, drones, infrared and seismic sensors all across the border, what value is the wall? If it isn't cutting back other costs, what are we doing.

I honestly don't know how effective it has to be, but if it isn't going to save us any money with other defenses it needs to be more effective. If it is 10% effective but halves our yearly budget, great idea. Thinking about Hamas using boats to go around, and I suspect Israel has as good of coastal observation as we do, I don't know that it will be too effective.

I suspect we agree, if the wall blocks 1 person per year, not worth it. 100% then of course build it. I don't know where the line is. I almost talked myself into it because Israel's wall was fairly successful. But it turns out Hamas was purposely not tipping their hand with small incursions to guarantee the big one worked.

* Jeremy Clarkson had a point on seatbelts and other safety devices creating aparhy, the safer we make cars the more crazy people drive because they have no fear. He suggested if every steering wheel had a razor sharp spike extending to the driver's chest, their would be almost no accidents.
Guess which part of our southern boarder that millions of illegals are NOT coming through right now. I'll hang up and wait. Oh.. What I hear is "our no wall policy is working so great, our policy is working perfectly".
 
When you skip over the relevant fact in the post and make it about you...Sorry I dared to disagree with you.

No...maybe to you it is, but that's a you problem.

Toughen up a little bit. It will help you.

Don't flatter yourself. This is just mental exercise. You can't hurt my feelings discussing this stuff. Neither of us is that important to the other.
 
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Guess which part of our southern boarder that millions of illegals are NOT coming through right now. I'll hang up and wait. Oh.. What I hear is "our no wall policy is working so great, our policy is working perfectly".
Our policy isn't working. Yes, it is true where there is no fence people will cross. If the whole area is fenced, they will come across different ways just as Hamas did. Boats being a great example. Gliders now a proven different method. Gangs will charge more, which may result in more people carrying drugs as the cost for help.

I haven't seen good analysis of effectiveness. Israel until the 7th seemed to indicate it worked. I doubt again. It literally seems to be a throw money at the problem solution . I would love to see good independent analysis.
 
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