Former CIA Chief Michael Morell Endorses Hillary Clinton

[iuwclurker1]

Subsequent data reveal that I was a dumbass to make the effort.

Not really, I appreciated it and I'm sure many others did too. Some number of European countries offer free university education and if Americans knew about it, they could partake themselves:

Germany's higher education landscape primarily consists of internationally well-ranked public universities, some of which receive special funding because the government deems them "excellent institutions." What's more, Americans can earn a German undergraduate or graduate degree without speaking a word of German and without having to pay a single dollar of tuition fees: About 900 undergraduate or graduate degrees are offered exclusively in English, with courses ranging from engineering to social sciences. For some German degrees, you don't even have to formally apply.

In fact, the German government would be happy if you decided to make use of its higher education system. The vast degree offerings in English are intended to prepare German students to communicate in a foreign language, but also to attract foreign students, because the country needs more skilled workers.​

Of course, we all know that healthcare is socialized in Europe, but Bernie surely didn't stand out on the issue because Hillary advocated for that long ago.

What's a bit pie-in-the-sky for me about Bernie's free public college tuition is that universities have raised their tuitions so much in recent year that it could cost a lot of money.

His notion of bringing back jobs, pure and utter nonsense, that's no way into the future, Hillary's got that one right. Bernie might have had a few ideas that weren't crazy but the real problem with him wasn't his presentation of the message, it was his use of demagoguery.

Incidentally, did you notice in his convention speech he got the crowd to chant how much his average donation was? "$27." Really? I mean really? The average locked in at $27 and stayed there for months and months? Dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

[Rockfish1]

At least five. Little, Korman, Pickens, DeLuise...

Oh, I misunderstood. I was still hung up on "Lebowski". RIP David Huddleston.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Oh, I misunderstood. I was still hung up on "Lebowski". RIP David Huddleston.

Easy mistake, but I was referring to your fondness for the line "authentic frontier gibberish."

 

[Rockfish1]

What's a bit pie-in-the-sky for me about Bernie's free public college tuition is that universities have raised their tuitions so much in recent year that it could cost a lot of money.

This accepts the system as it is. That's not inevitable. "College" could be a wide array of experiences, most of which may not now exist. Since no one is even thinking about how we ought to expand public education other than visionaries like Sanders, no one is trying to work out the details.

Bernie put things on the table that we ought to think about. If decent people of good faith start thinking about those things, good ideas will emerge. Then we'll spitball them, and in an iterative process, policies could result. But someone has to put it on the table and make it part of the discussion. That's what Bernie is trying to do.

 

[Rockfish1]

Easy mistake, but I was referring to your fondness for the line "authentic frontier gibberish."

That's the best.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

That's the best.

I'm also going to be using "aw, prairie shit" whenever I can for a while.

 

[Rockfish1]

This accepts the system as it is. That's not inevitable. "College" could be a wide array of experiences, most of which may not now exist. Since no one is even thinking about how we ought to expand public education other than visionaries like Sanders, no one is trying to work out the details.

Bernie put things on the table that we ought to think about. If decent people of good faith start thinking about those things, good ideas will emerge. Then we'll spitball them, and in an iterative process, policies could result. But someone has to put it on the table and make it part of the discussion. That's what Bernie is trying to do.

Also, is anyone complaining that the cost of a high school education is spiraling out of control? Why couldn't we extend basic public education another X years without its cost spiraling out of control?

Maybe the problem is that our "public" universities are increasingly devoted to (for example, in the case of IU) attracting out-of-state students who pay higher tuition -- because we've slashed funding for our public universities. Look what Republican Scott Walker has done to what may no longer be the prestigious University of Wisconsin. Maybe we're looking at this all wrong.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Also, is anyone complaining that the cost of a high school education is spiraling out of control? Why couldn't we extend basic public education another X years without its cost spiraling out of control?

Maybe the problem is that our "public" universities are increasingly devoted to (for example, in the case of IU) attracting out-of-state students who pay higher tuition -- because we've slashed funding for our public universities. Look what Republican Scott Walker has done to what may no longer be the prestigious University of Wisconsin. Maybe we're looking at this all wrong.

Actually, there are people complaining about that. Also about the cost of primary education. Mostly because they don't think their property taxes should be used to educate poor people, but they are complaining.

 

[Rockfish1]

Actually, there are people complaining about that. Also about the cost of primary education. Mostly because they don't think their property taxes should be used to educate poor people, but they are complaining.

I should have framed the question differently, because there are always complainers. But in fact, the cost of a high school education isn't spiraling out of control. Whatever the facts may be in the system of higher education we currently have, there's no reason to doubt that we could extend the years of public education without bankrupting ourselves. This is something we could easily do -- if we thought about it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I should have framed the question differently, because there are always complainers. But in fact, the cost of a high school education isn't spiraling out of control. Whatever the facts may be in the system of higher education we currently have, there's no reason to doubt that we could extend the years of public education without bankrupting ourselves. This is something we could easily do -- if we thought about it.

You know that plane the military doesn't want, but Congress is forcing them to buy anyway? That money could pay for in-state tuition for every college student in America for 8 years.

Yeah, we could absolutely fix this if we wanted to. Easily, in fact.

 

[Rockfish1]

You know that plane the military doesn't want, but Congress is forcing them to buy anyway? That money could pay for in-state tuition for every college student in America for 8 years.

Yeah, we could absolutely fix this if we wanted to. Easily, in fact.

Yes, it's all about choices, and speaking as someone who isn't "Bernie or Bust," Bernie put some really important choices on the agenda. Democrats should keep and advance that agenda.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yes, it's all about choices, and speaking as someone who isn't "Bernie or Bust," Bernie put some really important choices on the agenda. Democrats should keep and advance that agenda.

Agreed. Progressives need to take the next step WITHIN the party.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

You know that plane the military doesn't want, but Congress is forcing them to buy anyway? That money could pay for in-state tuition for every college student in America for 8 years.

Yeah, we could absolutely fix this if we wanted to. Easily, in fact.

You have this wrong. Sometimes the military doesn't want to spend the money on a plane, ship or other weapons system that congress does, but the military wants to spend that money on something else. It's not like the military doesn't want to spend the money on something. Besides, we could spend more on military weapons, it would be expansionary, right?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You have this wrong. Sometimes the military doesn't want to spend the money on a plane, ship or other weapons system that congress does, but the military wants to spend that money on something else. It's not like the military doesn't want to spend the money on something. Besides, we could spend more on military weapons, it would be expansionary, right?

I'm not wrong. I agree the military would prefer to keep the money, most likely, but that's not the point I was making.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I'm not wrong. I agree the military would prefer to keep the money, most likely, but that's not the point I was making.

OK, but if the military said they wanted something other than the plane that you pointed out that they didn't want than your point would be moot, wouldn't it?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

OK, but if the military said they wanted something other than the plane that you pointed out that they didn't want than your point would be moot, wouldn't it?

No.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

No.

Your point was that the military didn't want to spend some money so that money could be spent on something else, wasn't it?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Your point was that the military didn't want to spend some money on some projects which could be spent on something else, wasn't it?

My point was that here is one example of money we are spending on a single project that the people who are supposed to benefit from the project don't want, which adds up to enough money to pay for in-state tuition for every single American college student for eight years.

Is any of that wrong?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

My point was that here is one example of money we are spending on a single project that the people who are supposed to benefit from the project don't want, which adds up to enough money to pay for in-state tuition for every single American college student for eight years.

Is any of that wrong?

Maybe it is. If we polled every American with the question it would be interesting to see the result. That doesn't mean the result would be what we should do, whatever the result.

Are you watching the Olympics too?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Maybe it is. If we polled every American with the question it would be interesting to see the result. That doesn't mean the result would be what we should do, whatever the result.

Are you watching the Olympics too?

What's the poll? My point had nothing to do with "should," and only everything to do with "could." Descriptive, not prescriptive. It would cost about $188B to provide every college student in America with in-state tuition. We've spent about $1.5T on the F-35, correct? That's 8 years worth of tuition.

Where is my descriptive point wrong?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

What's the poll? My point had nothing to do with "should," and only everything to do with "could." Descriptive, not prescriptive. It would cost about $188B to provide every college student in America with in-state tuition. We've spent about $1.5T on the F-35, correct? That's 8 years worth of tuition.

Where is my descriptive point wrong?

It could be done. I don't think most Americans think it should be done. Disagree?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It could be done. I don't think most Americans think it should be done. Disagree?

I think more Americans would want that than you think, but again, that's not my point. My point was that it could be done. As Rock studiously observed, "It's all about choices."

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I think more Americans would want that than you think, but again, that's not my point. My point was that it could be done. As Rock studiously observed, "It's all about choices."

Yes. It's all about choices.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yes. It's all about choices.

Top bring it back to how this strange conversation ultimately started, these ideas are not "pie-in-the-sky nonsense." These are things we could do, if we wanted to put our resources there. It wouldn't be that difficult.

 

[twenty02]

I can't stop you from being stupid, but please note that I was specifically responding to Twenty's claim his proposals were "vague."

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

Thank you for a genuine response that deserves a real reply, but it's almost 2 am and it's late night backgammon night in the Goat household, so we'll have to pause this until later.

Good luck with golf.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yes. It's all about choices.

Also, if you want to have a debate about choices, I'd be happy to argue that a society that spends as much money as we do on the military while students rack up massive amounts of debt that could easily be paid for with relatively minor cuts to the military is a STUPID society, objectively and obviously. But that wasn't what I was arguing here. I was just pointing out that the shift was easily possible.

But, again, if you want me to argue that we should make the shift, I'm happy to do it, because our current spending priorities are objectively stupid.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

Regarding college, what about less expensive and not necessarily free? There was a Forbe's article a few years ago that showed an increase of 100% in the CPI, but a 500% increase in college tuition costs over the last 30 years. So, let's make it affordable while at the same time increasing admission standards. I agree, it's not for everyone. I know people who either flunked out or just quit. Good people that I'm still close friends with, but they didn't belong in college.

 

[Bill4411]

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

But I wanted to go to film school and not be burdened with debt. Anybody up for a William Bendix film festival?

 

[iuwclurker1]

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

Sounds like you work hard...starting Friday evening.

 

[iuwclurker1]

Top bring it back to how this strange conversation ultimately started, these ideas are not "pie-in-the-sky nonsense." These are things we could do, if we wanted to put our resources there. It wouldn't be that difficult.

In the context of this election, in the year 2016, with Republicans controlling the House and the Democrats possibly controlling the Senate by a vote or two, and the US standing at a ginormous trillions of dollars in debt, it's pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

By far the biggest lie of the many that Sanders spewed was the implication that he advocated policies that Hillary didn't. If Sanders had had the guts to be as honest as he pretended to be, then he'd have presented a completely different story of his "revolution." The essential and probably only significant difference between the two is Hillary's pragmatism. So if Bern had really wanted to be honest, he'd have simply said, "Listen, Hillary and I are both liberals. We both want more or less the same thing. The problem is, she's more pragmatic, I'm more of a dreamer. If we really want this revolution to occur, you young people are going to have to show up in such numbers in conservative states that we take back the HoR. That's the only way this is going to happen. Otherwise, it's really just pie in the sky. So if you really want free tuition, get out the word, make sure your fellows vote..."

 

[iuwclurker1]

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

There is no doubt that universities have more or less "colluded" to raise their tuition fees taking advantage of the easy money for college students, although when the NYT first came out with an in-depth expose there was huge pushback, if I recall correctly. Universities don't like that out in the open. It threatens all the huge infrastructure improvements they've made and also counteracts lowered state support where relevant.

There's another significant factor, though, and that's the increase in foreign students flooding our universities. That trend is likely to increase and they tend to have money to pay for it, however they get it. That could raise a variety of issues. For example, will there become a "haves-and-have-nots" disparity between public and private institutions if private ones continue to benefit from astronomical tuition fees while public ones have conceivably less and less funds to work with?

Other questions, how can you even federally mandate state public free tuition? Who gets the free tuition? Right now all citizens are allowed to participate in K-12. There's no way public universities are equipped to handle such numbers. Will public universities be allowed to turn away tax-paying citizens who want their free education?

I'm actually not arguing against the idea. I cherish education. I just don't think it's anywhere close to as simple as switching money for a "project" to funding free tuition. Even Rock's notion of channeling students to all sorts of training situations, not just college -- which to me addresses your post because many of the students who can't hack college just need something more hands-on -- likely involves a lot more than just covering the tuition.

 

[hoot1]

It could be done. I don't think most Americans think it should be done. Disagree?

Sure it could be done. This is only true because we are willing to run huge deficits. The "we" includes both Democrats and Republicans. Disagree?

 

[Zizkov]

Let's go through his campaign.

TPP position was a cornerstone.....terrible. That alone was the biggest talking point of his campaign and tells you a LOT about where his base was. Dumb people. I don't respect dumb. Anyone that waves a no TPP sign is dumb. Anyone that wants to get into that debate with me, let's have at it.

Free college also not idea I can get behind. We already send way too many kids to college that they aren't prepared to handle. I love higher education, and want to push upwards those that are talented enough and ready enough to actually pursue it.

The reality is, a lot of 18-19 year olds can't hack it. Not everyone is made out for college, and throwing public money at it won't change that fact. I like having skin in the game. Let's get rid of predatory school loans, #1.

We can't have a communication major coming out of a fake, for profit college with $100k in student loans and zero marketable skills (just heard this today).

Dry up the river of easy student loan money, and you'll no longer see 8% tuition increases. It's the subprime mortgage bubble situation. Redux.

I'd post more, but I had a half gallon of Titos vodka dropped by a good friend tonight, and we made a hard dent. And I've got an 9a tee time.

I won't argue with you about TPP, because I haven't studied it enough to do so.

I will say that your comments on 'free education' are equally as dumb or maybe ignorant. Living in a country where it exists I have a pretty good idea of how it works.

Free education doesn't mean everybody gets to go to college and it never has. In fact getting into college is much more difficult and I would argue that those that are in college are far more qualified then what you generally see in the US.

My son is starting 5th grade in September. At the end of the year, he will take his first round of official testing. Once that is all complete, his scores, grades and teacher comments will be put together and then he will have options available based on his progress.

This happens several times throughout schooling. If university and beyond is his interest and ability, then it will be basically free. There are many other avenues to prepare him for whatever area he chooses to pursue.

One thing I notice about virtually every student when they finish their schooling (regardless of level) is that they have a skill useful to the marketplace. I have been very impressed with the system here.

The option to pay for schooling later is always available for anybody as well.

 

[iuwclurker1]

I will say that your comments on 'free education' are equally as dumb or maybe ignorant. Living in a country where it exists I have a pretty good idea of how it works.

Free education doesn't mean everybody gets to go to college and it never has. In fact getting into college is much more difficult and I would argue that those that are in college are far more qualified then what you generally see in the US.

I'm no Bernhead but my impression from his revolutionary pronouncements was that he was promising free college tuition for everyone, so your definition of "free education" is actually Czech free education.

You reminded me of meeting a Czech computer programmer in Paris one August. Extremely intelligent, articulate, gregarious guy. As I recall his story, he had come from some remote region of the Czech part Czechoslovakia, so later the Czech Republic. He had wanted to be a doctor from early childhood and studied hard throughout school. But as I understood it, the system was such that only so many applicants from his region were accepted into medical school each year and he was the first one out. As you say, it was evidently highly competitive.

He loved his country and was very proud of it and didn't complain that he had to choose an alternative profession, but he admitted that he had a deep, deep and unfulfilled longing to be a doctor but there was nothing he could do about it.

Not making any particular point with that, but I must say I found that disturbing at the time. I felt an element of Greek tragedy to his story.

 

[twenty02]

I won't argue with you about TPP, because I haven't studied it enough to do so.

I will say that your comments on 'free education' are equally as dumb or maybe ignorant. Living in a country where it exists I have a pretty good idea of how it works.

Free education doesn't mean everybody gets to go to college and it never has. In fact getting into college is much more difficult and I would argue that those that are in college are far more qualified then what you generally see in the US.

My son is starting 5th grade in September. At the end of the year, he will take his first round of official testing. Once that is all complete, his scores, grades and teacher comments will be put together and then he will have options available based on his progress.

This happens several times throughout schooling. If university and beyond is his interest and ability, then it will be basically free. There are many other avenues to prepare him for whatever area he chooses to pursue.

One thing I notice about virtually every student when they finish their schooling (regardless of level) is that they have a skill useful to the marketplace. I have been very impressed with the system here.

The option to pay for schooling later is always available for anybody as well.

Well, I'll say that if we want to move to a system like that, where it's very rigerous requirements to even be accepted into college, than maybe we'd be onto something....but that's a much different situation than what we have here now.

 

[iuwclurker1]

Well, I'll say that if we want to move to a system like that, where it's very rigerous requirements to even be accepted into college, than maybe we'd be onto something....but that's a much different situation than what we have here now.

My understanding is that it's not about getting accepted into college but accepted into a particular program, another huge difference between the US and Europe. Europe still has some of its feudal vestiges, in particular a system of channeling young people into professions. Their high schools tend to already be channeled into a variety of technical/vocational schools in addition to their "gymnasiums" which are more focused on liberal arts collage prep, although even they can be specialized. This is especially true in the cities. In other words, many high schools are vocational and their grads already have a lot of hands-on practice if not some on-the-job training and they are ready to work professionally.

So if you went to a gymnasium for high school, that was your liberal arts education. At the university you now specialize in economics or whatever you apply for and get accepted into.

 

[Zizkov]

I'm no Bernhead but my impression from his revolutionary pronouncements was that he was promising free college tuition for everyone, so your definition of "free education" is actually Czech free education.

You reminded me of meeting a Czech computer programmer in Paris one August. Extremely intelligent, articulate, gregarious guy. As I recall his story, he had come from some remote region of the Czech part Czechoslovakia, so later the Czech Republic. He had wanted to be a doctor from early childhood and studied hard throughout school. But as I understood it, the system was such that only so many applicants from his region were accepted into medical school each year and he was the first one out. As you say, it was evidently highly competitive.

He loved his country and was very proud of it and didn't complain that he had to choose an alternative profession, but he admitted that he had a deep, deep and unfulfilled longing to be a doctor but there was nothing he could do about it.

Not making any particular point with that, but I must say I found that disturbing at the time. I felt an element of Greek tragedy to his story.

That's sounds like the system before the revolution.

You always have the option to pay and it's not expensive like the US system.

There area always going to be people left out because you have to draw the line somewhere. As you progress to more defined disciplines, the amount of spaces gets smaller.

It is certainly harder for someone from a village far from Prague. Prague has the most choices, but you then have to consider living costs that might be more difficult for someone from a small village to pay.

There are more options away from Prague in such cities as Brno and Olomouc. It's not a perfect system, but it works pretty well and the educational system is very good. My son is learning math that my niece, who is 3 years older is learning.

I actually think they push a little too hard, he has a shitload of homework.

 

[Zizkov]

My understanding is that it's not about getting accepted into college but accepted into a particular program, another huge difference between the US and Europe. Europe still has some of its feudal vestiges, in particular a system of channeling young people into professions. Their high schools tend to already be channeled into a variety of technical/vocational schools in addition to their "gymnasiums" which are more focused on liberal arts collage prep, although even they can be specialized. This is especially true in the cities. In other words, many high schools are vocational and their grads already have a lot of hands-on practice if not some on-the-job training and they are ready to work professionally.

So if you went to a gymnasium for high school, that was your liberal arts education. At the university you now specialize in economics or whatever you apply for and get accepted into.

That's a pretty good description of the system. Most of the time, when someone finishes high school, they are prepared for whatever skill they have chosen. You even have choices of focus starting with grade school.

We had 3 choices in our area. One focused on languages, one on IT and one on arts. We chose the IT school because our son felt most comfortable when visiting. He loves the IT stuff as well, so we lucked out. He is entering 5th grade and will be starting on his third language.