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Dennett’s attitude towards religion

I think gravity is inexplicable.

Of course we see its effects. It is a law of nature, but we don’t know what it is. Gravity is inextricably interwoven with the nature of the universe. We don’t know what that is either.
Nothing you are writing is relevant to the notion of the supernatural, I don’t think. Again, go read the definitions. Look up an article on a naturalistic worldview v. Supernatural one.

Re “Truth” or “existence” (which is where this conversation will inevitably lead), I have strong Pragmatist leanings. The theory of gravity explains, predictively, phenomena in the real world. It is a tool to understand what is going on in our experience and a way to predict and control the natural world. You can think of it, in a way, as analogous to a Platonic form, just one created by human rationality.

Also, you seem to be arguing that if humans can’t say exactly why phenomena act a certain way at a certain time, then the supernatural or God exists. That would be a non sequitur. Atheism is completely compatible with finite human knowledge.

Maybe we should read Dan Dennett! His theories might help explain the Leviathan or Ahab’s motives.
 
I don't think the value in religion is found in God. I think it's found in how we treat other people.
An atheist would treat other people well. Religion also has been used for mistreatment or worse.

I think religion plays an important role in how we think of ourselves and if we do that well, that spills over into how we treat others.
 
My favorite are the Paul Wolff anarchists. I have no idea what they believe in let alone talk about
He has an interesting blog. Brian Leiter posts his stuff every once in awhile, if you read him. Leiter has the most popular philosophy blog for academics (although he’s very controversial in that community).
 
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He has an interesting blog. Brian Leiter posts his stuff every once in awhile, if you read him. Leiter has the most popular philosophy blog for academics (although he’s very controversial in that community).
The philosopher's stone....There's a guy I know on there from Michigan. Very much diary of madman stuff.
 
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Gravity is the attraction of masses to each other. Why they attract we don't exactly know, but they do.

The thing is we can test gravity, we do it all the time and have some very specific results. The God of Christianity requires faith and we are specifically not to test.
That’s a fair point. We can say the same thing about electricity. Electricity runs our brains and runs the cosmos. We know what it does, but we don’t know what or why it is. Gravity and electricity are absolutely necessary for existence, and life we know that, we study it, and we know what both do. But on a fundamental level, we cannot tie them to a basic law of nature, we see them as the law of nature.
 
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Nothing you are writing is relevant to the notion of the supernatural, I don’t think. Again, go read the definitions. Look up an article on a naturalistic worldview v. Supernatural one.

Re “Truth” or “existence” (which is where this conversation will inevitably lead), I have strong Pragmatist leanings. The theory of gravity explains, predictively, phenomena in the real world. It is a tool to understand what is going on in our experience and a way to predict and control the natural world. You can think of it, in a way, as analogous to a Platonic form, just one created by human rationality.

Also, you seem to be arguing that if humans can’t say exactly why phenomena act a certain way at a certain time, then the supernatural or God exists. That would be a non sequitur. Atheism is completely compatible with finite human knowledge.

Maybe we should read Dan Dennett! His theories might help explain the Leviathan or Ahab’s motives.
First of all, athieism and denial of existence of God is not evidence of existence or non existence. Second, human brains continue to evolve with more size and more complexity. Science tells us evolution is for a reason like to cope with changing environments. What is the reason for brain evolution? I thinking making sense of unknowable supernatural conditions plays a role. Quantum physics is an example. The rules there are not like traditional laws of nature.
 
No, I'm not assuming that, but I think it's pretty self-evident that we don't - or at least that not all of us do.
Gotcha. Is it self-evident? Perhaps a Christian GOAT would be married with 7 kids (all home schooled) filled with joy. You’re also a conservative and Bitcoiner. We’d have to run the simulation to know the answer.
 
First of all, athieism and denial of existence of God is not evidence of existence or non existence. Second, human brains continue to evolve with more size and more complexity. Science tells us evolution is for a reason like to cope with changing environments. What is the reason for brain evolution? I thinking making sense of unknowable supernatural conditions plays a role. Quantum physics is an example. The rules there are not like traditional laws of nature.
Evolution happens for one and only one reason: to increase fitness of an organism. If in the process we gain the ability to understand new things, that's a happy accident.
 
Nothing you are writing is relevant to the notion of the supernatural, I don’t think. Again, go read the definitions. Look up an article on a naturalistic worldview v. Supernatural one.

Re “Truth” or “existence” (which is where this conversation will inevitably lead), I have strong Pragmatist leanings. The theory of gravity explains, predictively, phenomena in the real world. It is a tool to understand what is going on in our experience and a way to predict and control the natural world. You can think of it, in a way, as analogous to a Platonic form, just one created by human rationality.

Also, you seem to be arguing that if humans can’t say exactly why phenomena act a certain way at a certain time, then the supernatural or God exists. That would be a non sequitur. Atheism is completely compatible with finite human knowledge.

Maybe we should read Dan Dennett! His theories might help explain the Leviathan or Ahab’s motives.

People used to think lightning was God's wrath.

Religion was/is often used as a way to explain stuff that we didn't/don't understand. Because no one likes to admit there are things they can't explain.

The more we learn, the less that gets attributed to God.
 
I've long not believed because either: 1) there is no god or 2) god exists and is an asshole.

There's no other way to describe the horrible things that happen all of the time on this planet.
I realize this won't be an intellectual response, so feel free to ignore it, but....

What if God created the world - and us - and gave us everything we need to thrive and gave us rules to live by, and then turned everything over to us to do as we wish?

Does that make Him an asshole, or just a Creator?
 
I realize this won't be an intellectual response, so feel free to ignore it, but....

What if God created the world - and us - and gave us everything we need to thrive and gave us rules to live by, and then turned everything over to us to do as we wish?

Does that make Him an asshole, or just a Creator?
Deism is a thing.
 
There’s no doubt it’s 1) genetic and 2) self inflicted. But I challenge anyone to walk a mile in my psycho bunny underwear and see how’d they’d do
I'm fvcking with you, but don't you think we all, when faced with choices, pick the wrong one and then look to God and say "Why is my life so screwed up?".

I'll tell you one thing I've learned in life - when I pray - and I do pray - I pray for guidance. And what usually comes back to me is to go back and do what is right and to change my stupid behavior. And if I follow that path, life becomes better almost immediately.

I've also prayed for miracles, and sometimes they come true. A non-believer can say they aren't miracles, but sometimes there is no explanation for what happens. Sometimes they don't come true and that's disappointing, but I think everything is part of a bigger plan.

We're given trials in life and hopefully we learn from them. I'm about 50/50 on whether we are reincarnated.
 
I've prayed for God to smite a few posters and He didn't come through for me.

So atheist now..... just kidding.
 
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I'm fvcking with you, but don't you think we all, when faced with choices, pick the wrong one and then look to God and say "Why is my life so screwed up?".

I'll tell you one thing I've learned in life - when I pray - and I do pray - I pray for guidance. And what usually comes back to me is to go back and do what is right and to change my stupid behavior. And if I follow that path, life becomes better almost immediately.

I've also prayed for miracles, and sometimes they come true. A non-believer can say they aren't miracles, but sometimes there is no explanation for what happens. Sometimes they don't come true and that's disappointing, but I think everything is part of a bigger plan.

We're given trials in life and hopefully we learn from them. I'm about 50/50 on whether we are reincarnated.
I was really hoping you were going to write that you pray for guidance and then come the WC and it’s always there.
 
I'm fvcking with you, but don't you think we all, when faced with choices, pick the wrong one and then look to God and say "Why is my life so screwed up?".

I'll tell you one thing I've learned in life - when I pray - and I do pray - I pray for guidance. And what usually comes back to me is to go back and do what is right and to change my stupid behavior. And if I follow that path, life becomes better almost immediately.

I've also prayed for miracles, and sometimes they come true. A non-believer can say they aren't miracles, but sometimes there is no explanation for what happens. Sometimes they don't come true and that's disappointing, but I think everything is part of a bigger plan.

We're given trials in life and hopefully we learn from them. I'm about 50/50 on whether we are reincarnated.
Fascinating. Let’s hear it.
 
I think gravity is inexplicable.

Of course we see its effects. It is a law of nature, but we don’t know what it is. Gravity is inextricably interwoven with the nature of the universe. We don’t know what that is either.
I still don't see how air travel and television is possible. lol
 
I agree we don’t have free will from outcomes. We do have free will to choose God. I disagree with your conclusion.
Well said. And we can't control what happens when other exercise their free will, which can affect us.
 
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Well said. And we can't control what happens when other exercise their free will, which can affect us.
But if your God is omniscient he’d know this, right? How does this get him off the hook?
 
Fascinating. Let’s hear it.
Well.... I had an uncle who 100% believed in reincarnation, so I suppose that made me consider it. He was driving in a western town he'd never been in and described to his wife what was on every street and around every corner. I wasn't around for that, so who knows. I just know he was convinced.

My personal experience with my child and grandchildren also makes me think it's a possibility. There are times when they all act and remind me of past relatives. My daughter, while she's not a copy of my grandmother, reminds me so much of her. My grandmother was a very devout Christian. She died 5 years before my daughter was born. We went to church on and off while my daughter was growing up, but we didn't force religion on her and we weren't that devout - there was no pressure on her. But she and her husband attend church with my grandchildren every Sunday, attend Bible studies, volunteer at food banks, etc. There are things about her that just remind me so much of my grandmother.

My granddaughter, when she was learning to wave bye-bye (probably around a year old?), she was sitting in her high chair and looked up at a corner of the ceiling and started waving bye-bye. Cute, right? Then, she turned in her high chair and continued waving as she turned toward the door - like she was following someone out. Then she did it again. Now, that's not a sign of reincarnation - more like spirits? But it made me consider the possibility of spirits coming back in human form.

Now, maybe it's genetics for my daughter - that's why I'm only 50/50. But sometimes the resemblance is so strong it's scary. There are other instances but I don't want to write a novel.

I had a Ouija board experience that still freaks me out. When I was about 17, we were messing around with a Ouija board and I asked it a question. It replied with what I thought was nonsense at the time. I'm not going to get into specifics (maybe when you come down to a tailgate, I'll tell you), but about 30 years later, that prediction made 100% sense.

I'm not into the occult at all and I think there are a lot of kooks out there who believe in this stuff. But I've seen enough that I'm not going to dismiss things like reincarnation out of hand.

There are many things we, as humans, don't understand. That's why I think people who dismiss "God" as nonsense aren't acknowledging the possibility - and probability - that there is something/Someone more than just a couple atoms smashing together that made the universe.

Thinking about the universe and endless space and time just gives me a headache.
 
But if your God is omniscient he’d know this, right? How does this get him off the hook?
How can you blame God for decisions made by man?

As I said, if He created our world and gave us the means to thrive and rules to live by, why is He responsible for our actions?
 
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He has an interesting blog. Brian Leiter posts his stuff every once in awhile, if you read him. Leiter has the most popular philosophy blog for academics (although he’s very controversial in that community).
The philosopher's stone....There's a guy I know on there from Michigan.
I'm fvcking with you, but don't you think we all, when faced with choices, pick the wrong one and then look to God and say "Why is my life so screwed up?".

I'll tell you one thing I've learned in life - when I pray - and I do pray - I pray for guidance. And what usually comes back to me is to go back and do what is right and to change my stupid behavior. And if I follow that path, life becomes better almost immediately.

I've also prayed for miracles, and sometimes they come true. A non-believer can say they aren't miracles, but sometimes there is no explanation for what happens. Sometimes they don't come true and that's disappointing, but I think everything is part of a bigger plan.

We're given trials in life and hopefully we learn from them. I'm about 50/50 on whether we are reincarnated.
If we are reincarnated, i'm hoping to come back with @mcmurtry66's baby arm weaponry
 
Most of us have jobs and lives and don't have the luxury of spending hours a day in extended back and forths.
You would never know that by how much a lot of people post. I'm retired but most people have left me in the dust when in comes to the number of messages posted. 😅

Negative. I want to believe in god but have a hard time believing that if there is a god he’d be doing this to me
What do you think he's doing it to you? Maybe the person you see in the mirror is the one doing it to you.
 
Ex stoker is having a boy in a few weeks. At the drop off my daughter was hugging her going “I’m so excited to meet my baby brother.” Adjusting southeast mo state as the target school and local junior colleges as the safety. One more unforced error we’ll be dipping into cosmetology
Well, she's just a consensus builder. Smart. Very smart.
 
Ex stoker is having a boy in a few weeks. At the drop off my daughter was hugging her going “I’m so excited to meet my baby brother.” Adjusting southeast mo state as the target school and local junior colleges as the safety. One more unforced error we’ll be dipping into cosmetology
I dated a girl from Sikeston who went to SEMO.
 
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Robert Anton Wilson on Religion and Patriotism

"Whoever can scare people enough (produce bio-survival anxiety) can sell them quickly on any verbal map that seems to give them relief, l.e., cure the anxiety. By frightening people with Hell and then offering them Salvation, the most ignorant or crooked individuals can "sell" a whole system of thought that cannot bear two minutes of rational analysis. And any domesticated primate alpha male, however cruel or crooked, can rally the primate tribe behind him by howling that a rival alpha male is about to lead his gang in an attack on this habitat. These two mammalian reflexes are known, respectively, as Religion and Patriotism. They work for domesticated primates, as for the wild primates, because they are Evolutionary Relative Successes. (So far.)"
 
There used to be a lot of secular organizations that filled this role: fraternal organizations, benevolent societies, bowling leagues, service clubs, you name it.
There used to be a lot of secular organizations that filled this role: fraternal organizations, benevolent societies, bowling leagues, service clubs, you name it.

Uncle, your remarks about the country losing social capital and becoming more individualistic reminds me of Robert D. Putnam's book Bowling Alone.

The book was written circa 2000 but contends this shift started about 1950.

Lately some authors look to today's youth and blame cell phones for kids becoming isolated.

If Putnam was right, the shift toward individualism started long before cell phones.
 
Uncle, your remarks about the country losing social capital and becoming more individualistic reminds me of Robert D. Putnam's book Bowling Alone.

The book was written circa 2000 but contends this shift started about 1950.

Lately some authors look to today's youth and blame cell phones for kids becoming isolated.

If Putnam was right, the shift toward individualism started long before cell phones.

Hang with about a hundred oldsters who meet weekly to discuss current events, sing in a choir, listen to guest lecturers, and eat lunch.

They are what you might call social beings. Before retiring they were lawyers, physicians, journalists, teachers, ministers, etc..

Also for the most part they are active church attendees from a variety of religions.

It is my firm opinion it is the social aspects of attending church rather than religious dogma which is important to my friends with whom I see weekly.
 
Hang with about a hundred oldsters who meet weekly to discuss current events, sing in a choir, listen to guest lecturers, and eat lunch.

They are what you might call social beings. Before retiring they were lawyers, physicians, journalists, teachers, ministers, etc..

Also for the most part they are active church attendees from a variety of religions.

It is my firm opinion it is the social aspects of attending church rather than religious dogma which is important to my friends with whom I see weekly.

bingo! why ruin a good picnic by taking ancient jewish folklore at face value?
 
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bingo! why ruin a good picnic by taking ancient jewish folklore at face value?

The Center did have a series devoted to lectures by ministers from prominent and not so prominent religions.

One of these sessions went beyond the lunch time. The lecturer noted a locally famous minister in the audience and asked him what Methodists believed in

The audience applauded loudly when the minister responded, "We like to sing and eat lunch".
 
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